If a skater is agressive enough to learn 3/3 consistently and add it in short program then they can set themselves apart with a big point lead. Also, spins and steps and spirals of high level and quality will do the same. The short program is still about required elements afaik.
Ladies and 3/3 Predictions.
- Thread starter Doggygirl
- Start date
I don't think any of the ladies need a 3/3 in order to in anything. It's not like it was when Sarah was there landing 3/3's more consistently than any lady since Tara Lipinski.
I think Europeans showed us that you don't need to land a 3/3, much less half the jumps planned for the program, as long as you have a strong enough lead in the SP.
Worlds will be different, though. There will be stronger skaters there and I think the SP scores will be much closer. BUT, I still don't think all the talk that so and so needs a 3/3 means anything. It seems, to me, that 3/3's don't matter as much under CoP. This system seems totally beneficail to skaters like Sasha Cohen that have struggled with 3/3's.
I think Europeans showed us that you don't need to land a 3/3, much less half the jumps planned for the program, as long as you have a strong enough lead in the SP.
Worlds will be different, though. There will be stronger skaters there and I think the SP scores will be much closer. BUT, I still don't think all the talk that so and so needs a 3/3 means anything. It seems, to me, that 3/3's don't matter as much under CoP. This system seems totally beneficail to skaters like Sasha Cohen that have struggled with 3/3's.
Fossi said:
I agree. 3/3s will become important only when the COP starts to reward them. Under the current COP, any skater who plans to have only 6 triples in their LP should just forget the 3/3 completely. It's better to have a difficult entry to each of their triple and deliver high quality jump execution. I still find it is totally preposterous not to reward the 3/3. These COP inventors just see the 3/3 as a licence to get the 7 jumping passes and nothing more. Perhaps they want skaters to evolve into a more complete package and punish jumping beans. A valid reason, but they should know stifling this sport tecnically (jumpwise) is not good.
Ironically, as far as jumps are concerned, Michelle doesn't need the 3/3 as much as she would under the 6.0 system. If she can incorporate some difficult entry to some of her triples, she can rack up lost of points considering her jump execution is text book perfect (except her lutz which she flutzes slightly). I can imagine the frustration Shizuka or Irina would have if they both landed 2 3/3s only to see Michelle equal their jump points by just doing 4 triples of the same kind, individually and at much lower risk. This is only based purely on base points. Now imagine if we factor in the GOE. Very likely those who execute the 3/3 would not have a difficult entry let alone a good GOE for the execution.
Yes, as for Sasha, she will benefit a great deal. Her falls will not be severely punished as she would be under the 6.0 system. In fact, I would say the COP benefits inconsistent jumpers a great deal.
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bleuchick said:
I don't understand what you mean by that. Definitely, judges would love to see the 3/3 attempted by every skater but are they prepared to reward it? Not under the current COP. Unless I have missed something, has the COP been revised to reward the 3/3?
3-3 and jump combinations
To demand a balanced program, the CoP limits the jumping passes and specifies a required axel take off. A skater who can perform a 2a-3 combo or sequence, or a 3 - 3 can do 7 triples and get the extra 5 or so points into their base technical mark. It may also enhance the choreography and program to do more triples, raising the second mark. The CoP does, in this way, reward the jump combinations.
To demand a balanced program, the CoP limits the jumping passes and specifies a required axel take off. A skater who can perform a 2a-3 combo or sequence, or a 3 - 3 can do 7 triples and get the extra 5 or so points into their base technical mark. It may also enhance the choreography and program to do more triples, raising the second mark. The CoP does, in this way, reward the jump combinations.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
didn't the rules said that judges could give some extra points for innovating movements... OK, let me check actually 'cause I don't trust my memory today lol!mzheng said:
OK, from the document JS 09 Singles/Pairs Principles of Calculation it says this:
k)An innovative element, movement or transition may be granted with a special bonus of two (2) points. This bonus can only be obtained once for a program.
l) The bonus (if obtained) will be added to the sum of the panel’s score for all the elements giving thus the Total Technical Score.
Now I don't know who gives this bonus, I imagine it would be the technical specialist, but it doesn't explain what type of movement would be considered innovative... a quad in the ladies, maybe? an original spin? So far I don't remember any competitor getting this bonus though.
After watching the World Junior Championship on CBC yesterday, my first thought was "watch out senior girls". Skaters like Mao Asada and some of the other skaters, they are in different class then the senior ladies. It seems like the senior ladies are just siting back doing the same old, same old and the younger skaters are doing the triple triples and Mao at 14 doing the triple axel and getting high marks for them under the CoP. Do you think that the judges will be expecting the senior ladies to be doing the triple triples like the junior girls? It seems like the judges are giving higher marks to those junior girls that can do these jumps. I think that the judges will reward the senior ladies who do the triple triples, same as they did the junior. If some of the senior ladies stay around after the Olympics, they are going to be left in the dust by the caliber of the young girls that are eligible to go to the senior level next year.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
COP IMO puts an interesting twist on this topic.
I suspect we might all have a better opinion on this subject after Worlds, since that will be the first time for COP with all the top contenders present. I HOPE COP truly rewards the best overall performances which includes all the other stuff besides the jumps. Jumps rack up TES points, but so do level 2/3 elements. I hope the technical portion of the judging simply rewards what is there according to the rules. (Not using GOE to manipulate scores outside of the rules). I also hope PCS isn't used for any props, but I suspect that's a very tall wish at this time.
In the case of Mao specifically, it appears she is way ahead of the Junior pack in other areas besides just jumps. I can't wait to see how she develops in the coming years. Same with Kim.
DG
millie said:
I suspect we might all have a better opinion on this subject after Worlds, since that will be the first time for COP with all the top contenders present. I HOPE COP truly rewards the best overall performances which includes all the other stuff besides the jumps. Jumps rack up TES points, but so do level 2/3 elements. I hope the technical portion of the judging simply rewards what is there according to the rules. (Not using GOE to manipulate scores outside of the rules). I also hope PCS isn't used for any props, but I suspect that's a very tall wish at this time.
In the case of Mao specifically, it appears she is way ahead of the Junior pack in other areas besides just jumps. I can't wait to see how she develops in the coming years. Same with Kim.
DG
I am alwarys leary about anyone pronouncing a junior skater, no matter how good (And Mao is truly very, very good) as the next great thing. I remember NNN, and her injuries have finished her career prematurely. These girls, for the most part, haven't gone through puberty, and all the changes that entails, so while I wish them all well, and hope they can bring their great skills and excitement to the Senior ladies in time, I can't jump up and down and pronounce them the next best thing since sliced bread quite yet.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2005
Why discuss only 3-3 combos? How about a quad? I would be willing to bet that we see a quad attempt from not only Ando but also Cohen. I think she'll be going for the desperation moves in Moscow. Hope not but you never know.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I find myself going back and forth in my mind about that. Yes, there are some sports where victory is decided by a stopwatch or by the massing of points. But in a judged sport, it seems to me that after all is said and done, the judges still have the responsibility of judging who performed best.Doggygirl said:
Sometimes a jump is performed with such breathtaking finesse that if I were a judge I would give it a positive GOE just on general priciples, never mind what the rules say about entering footwork, etc. (Reason number 561 why i am not a figure skating judge, LOL.)
About the component scores, I do not expect that the judges will ever be reduced to such a passive role that they cannot reward an in-the-zone performance that rocks the house.
Mao :rocks:
But it is interesting to go over the long list of all the promising young skaters that have come and gone during the last decade. Yet here we are in 2005, and it's still the old biddies Michelle and Irina battling it out as favorites for the World crown.
About Kim, what I hope for her is that she is able to develop a joy for the sport to match her talent. There have been several articles about her recently that paint a picture of a youngster who was pushed into the sport either by her parents or by the powers that be in the Korean sports apparatus, and who is lonely and homesick when she trains or competes abroad. I hope she finds her special place.
Mathman
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Maybe Miki, but I think Sasha would be out of her mind to try a quad. This is a jump that she has never landed in competition, and the few times she has tried it, after falling on the quad the rest of her program just went down the toilet.Frau Muller said:
On the contrary, IMO Sasha should not feel any sense of desperation at all. She has had such a subpar year so far that no one is really expecting anything of her at Moscow. So this should take some of the pressure off. Yet it was only a year ago that she dominated the World championships right up to the end, and had to settle for silver only because Shizuka rose above everything we thought she was capable of.
IMO all Sasha has to do is not fall down to give herself a chance to win the whole shebang. Trying desperation triple-triples and quads would cook her goose for sure, IMHO.
Mathman
original quote by Mzheng:
"Sasha is not desperation at all. The rumor I heard that Sasha's practice sounds way too much relax"
Mzheng are you saying that the rumors are that Sasha's practices are going well, or that they are too relaxed - as in she doesn't seem to be going all out?
"Sasha is not desperation at all. The rumor I heard that Sasha's practice sounds way too much relax"
Mzheng are you saying that the rumors are that Sasha's practices are going well, or that they are too relaxed - as in she doesn't seem to be going all out?
Kathy said:
Last time (Yesterday) I heard, she was not spending too much time on ice each day. I'm not her big fan, but I do like her skating style and I want her doing well with Michelle to secure 3 spots for US in Turino. But with the rumors (unless they are decoies from her home rink) that I heard I'm not too optimic with her chance at the Worlds. Don't know what she is thinking about ....She is leaving for Moscow today.
With that said I hope all three US ladies doing their best at the worlds. I have some confidences in Michelle though...
kyla2 said:
Yes, I read that too. I don't understand why she has practised the 3t/3l and perhaps planned to use it, as reported. Why? Unless she plans to repeat the 3l as an individual jump to garner more points compared to the 3t, it's so totally not wise because it's risky considering the 3l is her hardest jump.
Let's compare:
Jump layout 1(this is the most possible jump plan according to their speculation based on what was reported)
3t/3l, 3lz/2t, 3f, 2a, 3s, 3lz, 3t
Now, considering Jump layout 2:
3l, 3t/3t, 3lz/2t, 3f, 2a, 3s, 3lz
*same total base points but much less risky since the 3l is not in the 3/3 combo
Isn't it much better and wiser to go for the 2nd jump layout? Ok, the only possible reason I can think of is perhaps Michelle wants to incorporate some difficult entry to her 2nd 3t for more points under the 1st jump layout, but even if it's so, is it worth it to put the 3l in the 3t/3l combo which she has never landed in competition?
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