Ladies LP, 11/19/11

[Not Anybodys Mother]

Alissa has clinched a spot in the GPF

Possible scenarios:

Alena (26)
Mao (26)
Adelina (22)

Alena (26)
Adelina (24)
Mao (24)

Mao (28)
Alena (24)
Adelina (22)

Mao (28)
Adelina (24)
Alena (22)

Adelina (26)
Mao (26)
Alena (22)

Adelina (26)
Alena (24)
Mao (24)

Alissa stays in the top 6 in all of those scenarios

 

[sky_fly20]

well first of all congrats to all the top podium winners

and regarding the Liza debates, well I don't think its hype because she is indeed showing good results
although she has many detractors, I'll just post some constructive criticisms,

her jump technique is very solid all she needs to is to improve in her technicality aspect and the spins
although what bothers me if she will stay with her current height ? I know Liza's parents aren't really that tall
either, she belongs to a native Volga-Finnic Russian people and I believe she is also part tatar and they
tend to be shorter than the average Slavic Russian, but this is going to be a disadvantage if she is will
never grow at least 2in , she might not be able to get improvement on her jumps which is already very good
but power for other technicalities which she needs , spins for instant which is her weak spot now. if she gains a few pounds
with her current height she will have problems already not just with her jumps ,like wght tends to impact like other
prospects Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu etc.

Maybe Elizaveta had her growth spurt but shorter ? lol
but compare her to say Adelina, who has beaten her at juniors comp.
Adelina had her 1st growth spurt around 2009 and after that she regained her no. 1 position and still again beat Liza
Adelina is currently on her 2nd growth spurt cycle which for sure she will survive again, I think she'll continue growing
until 2012 . Adelina imo, will be the best/better in the long run amongst all the new skaters has a+also, huge jumps all she needs is improve her
jumping techniques which is her weak spot which causes her to also sometimes to make flutz, then she'll avoid
the inconsistencies that happened to Carolina Kostner.

Cup of Russia is Next week.? excited to see Mao and Adelina
Adelina avoiding her nervousness like from her debut at Cup of China, A better healed injury and with superb performance again, she may beat Mao
while saying that , still will get Mao hopefully to GPF of course.

Congrats again to all the participants and winners of TEB !

 

[SXTN]

It's so cute how Alissa wished Carolina "Good Luck" before Carolina went out on the ice.

Slutskaya & Cohen wouldn't have done that, those two angry *****

 

[jenaj]

I wouldn't say Mao's jumps were superior to Elizaveta's. Mao had a toe axel, no 3salchow, a severe 3 flutz, and her 3flip technique was not great. Presentation wise, skating skills wise yes. But jumps no and its jumps that are most likely to go in puberty.

Here is Mao as a young (15 yo) phenom. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juC7sAi80yU
I loved this program and think she was a deserving winner. Such joy and youthful exuberance. As we now know, it has been a much harder road for Mao than anyone predicted back in 2005. Only now does she seem to be re-discovering the spark she had as a young teenager. There is no way to predict where Elizaveta will end up, except to say that, barring injury, she is likely to be a major force in ladies figure skating for the next several years, just as Mao was, despite all her problems.

 

[havefun]

Mao has been fortunate to have the body type (similar to Yuna) that kept her long and narrow hipped. Translating to minimal loss in rotational speed upon growth. This likely allowed her to stay competitive. It is difficult to predict how the body will grow.

 

[Olympia]

You can almost see it in the first frame of this (Dick Button's triple loop).

http://skatingdomo.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/buttonloop1.gif

Here is "first arm position" in ballet.

http://dance.about.com/od/ballet/ss/Arm_Positions_2.htm

For jumping in ice skating, I think the idea is that this arm position helps you keep your shoulders parallel to the ice and rotating together, or something like that.

As for jumps that come out of nowhere, I don't think Alissa is capable of doing that. I think she is doing the best she can by long, deliberate approaches. It does adversely affect the choreography, but not as much as a bad under-rotation and fall.

I was watching a Janet Lynn video (one of the "Afternoon of a Faun" versions), and I noticed that her arm positions were similar to the one we're describing. I wonder whether her approach served as an inspiration for Yuka as she was coaching Alissa.

Math, when you used the expression "jumps that come out of nowhere," the person who flashed through my mind was Kurt. I had just watched his "Casablanca" and "Singin' in the Rain" programs. There aren't many wizards like that around, are there. John Curry wrote about training jumps with Gus Lussi and said that he was given a tiny patch of ice to jump on in order to learn how not to telegraph. He did develop the skill, but I don't know whether Alissa has it in her. I'm just happy she's staying on her feet long enough for us to appreciate the other excellences in her program, mainly the spins and delivery. Maybe more will come later, but I'm thankful for what she gives us right now.

 

[leafygreens]

Maybe more will come later, but I'm thankful for what she gives us right now.

Me too. I am so glad she decided to give it at least another year. Alissa has a lot left to give the skating world.

 

[havefun]

After watching her long yesterday. It almost appears her strategy was just to get thru the long and rotate the jumps in order to ensure qualifying for GPF. Maybe she will go for broke in the final. Her short was maybe her worst performance in over a year? It was great she didn't come undone and a testament to her confidence building.

 

[seniorita]

I have to admit that I thought Mirai was pretty much finish growing at that point. Well I thought she might grow a lil more but not as much as she has. She paints a different picture on the ice for me now. It's not the same.

My point was that Mirai's perfromances in Vancouver were one of the highlights of the Olys for me and at the time I wasnt thinking what if Mirai grows a meter more tall in the future. I just enjoyed a lot what she did there.

As for jumps that come out of nowhere, I don't think Alissa is capable of doing that. I think she is doing the best she can by long, deliberate approaches. It does adversely affect the choreography, but not as much as a bad under-rotation and fall.

You are right, and of course she must do what is best for her, she is hardly the only skater that telegraphs, her arm position was just something I hadnt noticed to anyone else.

 

[seniorita]

I think this pic is very very cute

 

[Bartek]

I can't see what all the "hoopla" is about for Kostner. To me IMO she is a clutz. She reminds me of Slutskaya who also was clumsy. At Skate Canada (I believe) she actually stopped the flow of the program with stumbles here and there. Maybe it's because she's Italian and the judges who are beholden to Cinquanta who's also Italian, give her high marks. She does not deserve those high PCS. Oh, yes, I know I'll be jumped on all over the place for this but its my opinion.

You just called "clumsy" probably two fastest female skaters... I can't really see anything clumsy in Slutskaya's skating. Carolina is sometimes clumsy with her jumps (air position, landings) but overall I wouldn't call her clumsy. I think she usually deserves about 8,25 for SS if not higher.

 

[FlattFan]

Mao did, though it should be noted that the Grand Prix Final was in Japan that year, which didn't hurt.

If Liza wins the GPF, that would exceed what Mao or Yu-Na did in their first seasons on the senior GP.

How does she exceed what Mao did in her first season on the senior GPs?
Liza is competing at a time where the current world champion is missing.
If Liza came in during the 2009-2010 GP, defeated Yuna Kim, reigning world champion at the time, at the 2010 GPF right before the Olympics, then she's equal footing to Mao. This girl came in during the weakest transitions, and you think she's the second Mao Asada? Seriously? What kind of logic is that? That's like saying all World Champions are equal, Kimmie is the same as Yuna and Mao.

 

[evangeline]

BTW I think Alissa is getting screwed against Carolina. Alissa is doing 3z and amazing spins... I just don't think when both skaters are "on," that Carolina should be beating Alissa.

That depends on how you look at it. Alissa has the advantage when it comes to more difficult jumps like the 3Lz and spins, but the quality of her jumps, her skating skills, choreography and transitions distinctly put her at a disadvantage against Carolina. Alissa's small and stalked jumps aren't going to get the big GOE that Carolina gets when she's on. Alissa's lack of speed is also going to hurt her, especially when up against Carolina, who is one of the fastest skaters in the biz. Also, Carolina may not have a lot of transitions, but she certainly has more than Alissa, whose transitions scores should be even lower than what she gets now, IMO.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Huh. I would think being well trained would mean a lot in figure skating. Having good technique could well help Eliza survive puberty - at least she'll be in a better shape to confront it than, say Caroline Zhang. I personally thought she was wonderfully expressive and musical for someone so young. Also, she had a determined and focused look on her face that was reminiscent of Michelle Kwan. I really enjoyed her performance and I sure hope she continues to do well. It's fun to have a new lady to get excited about these days.

I also enjoyed Carolina today. I thought she put a lot more into her performance this time than Alissa.... Congrats to the top three!

I couldn't agree more... That girl has "the look" that seems to be missing in today's crop of skaters. She also has stronger technique than this current crop of angst-ridden divas, which is going to be her best friend in the coming years. People are nuts if they dismiss this since we've seen time and time again that talent is a luxury whereas technique is a neccessity when the puberty was begin in a year or so. I look forward to watching her progress.

As for Caroline and Alyssa - today was an eye opener for me... I truly enjoyed their skating and marveled at the end of each program that I wasn't anticipating their falls - I just dug the programs... This is definately their year and I hope that each embraces that throughout the season...

 

[mot]

I was there in Paris.

Liza is so exciting to watch. On top of great jumps, everything about her screams of joy and excitement of being able to perform and show what she can. Mesmerising. Having said that, especially in free skate, especially after watching skaters like Caro, it made me worried about how very small portion of the ice she utilises. I don't know whether it was intended so choreographically (some skaters have preferred locations for certain jumps) or due to her relative lack of power and speed in skating. Anyway, she's so young and it was actually encouraging to see a room to grow.

Caro's power and speed across the ice was simply breath-taking. Not matched by anyone in the competition, I thought. Watching her skate is like watching men skate! Her speed going into the doubled flip was so much that I held my breath as I somehow knew she wouldn't make it.

Alissa was gorgeous. The way she subtly but surely picks up nuance of the music through her movement is wonderful. I just wished she had done a little more skating-wise in-between elements. But that might come once she settles more with her jumps.

Overall, it was great to have three skaters with rather different qualities up on the podium. For me, that is a triumph of IJS. Varied ways of rewarding skaters with different strengths.

I read Kanako has a very serious boot problem this season, like Jeremy last season, in Japanese source. I thought she skated a lot better than at COC, and her smile at K&C said it all. There is something enchanting about the way she performs - like I could see herself, her emotions, personality, time and efforts she has put in, etc, through her performance. (Or is that because I am Japanese and naturally sympathetic to Japanese skaters? I cannot tell myself.)

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Call me old school, but really, 2011? Toe loop, salchow, loop? Pathetic.

I guess you can call me old school too. I love love love skaters like Kostner and Czisny-but I don't like that skaters with such jump content are scored so closely to skaters like Tukt (who needs to improve I grant in artistry, ice coverage, etc. but still). It is clear to me anyway that the judges are holding them up on PCS to keep them on the podium. I hope this trend doesn't continue into the Olympics.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I don't know. Sonia Henie competed in her first Olympics at age ten, finishing last. If you want to keep ten year olds out I think you could have some kind of skating standard, rather than an age standard, to weed them out.

The question of ten-year-olds, however, is moot. A precocious ten-year-old would not be competitive as a senior competitor.

But some skaters, like gymnasts, hit their peak at fourteen or fifteen. It seems strange to have a "World Championship" whose winner says, "Yay, I'm the best in the world (except of course for those two youngsters who can mop up the ice with me -- thank goodness they're not here!)"

ITA. I think it's silly to make the argument 'how about a 10 year old'. I think it highly unlikely judges would allow such a child to even make it past the junior ranks-they'd likely keep the child's PCS scores especially very low. Artistically skaters tend to get better with age (those that work on it anyway).

History (particularly Olympic history) has had it's share of child prodigys. Why punish a child with some artificial means of keeping them out of senior competition? If they're the best athlete they're the best. At the 1936 Olympics 13 year old Marjorie Gestring won the springboard diving event, at the 1952 Olympics 15 year old Barbara Pearl Jones won gold with the relay team in track, 14 year old Nadia Comaneci took AA gold in gymnastics in 1976 and of course Oksana Baiul and Tara Lipinski took their respective Olympic golds as teenagers. Injuries can happen at any age and most junior level athletes are doing the same number of jumps as the seniors. I think it's a crime that Mao Asada could not compete at the 2006 Olympics and the same for gifted gymnasts in the summer Games who did not make the age limit. I think they're should be an exception to the rules for children who are clearly exceptional. A country should be allowed to send their best athletes to the Olympics. Period.

 

[mskater93]

I think it's OK to do two triple Lutzes, two triple loops, and two double Axels(?) The triple toe is OK because she doesn't have another one in her program, right?

Correct.

 

[mskater93]

The person that questioned the third jumping pass (how do you know it was intended as 2A+3T): look at the practice threads here. Also, you could see Alissa's brain already working about the 3T when she stepped up into the Axel which made her Waxel it a little bit.

As for Liza, she's a 14 year old precocious jumper with a little skill at selling a program for her age. At 14, your ability to just go out and do things without questioning yourself is different than your ability at 15, 16, 24...that, more than anything, is the difference (the level of self-conciousness that creeps in with puberty). Even if she doesn't grow much or put on much weight, whether she can handle that level of self-conciousness will be interesting to see. Kwan had one bad season (97) where she grew a little and filled out a bit and went through that self-conciousness, but she got her competitive mindset back after the stress fracture recovery in 98. It's how you handle that stage when you get past your precociousness that separates a good skater from a champion.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

ITA. I think it's silly to make the argument 'how about a 10 year old'. I think it highly unlikely judges would allow such a child to even make it past the junior ranks-they'd likely keep the child's PCS scores especially very low. Artistically skaters tend to get better with age (those that work on it anyway).

History (particularly Olympic history) has had it's share of child prodigys. Why punish a child with some artificial means of keeping them out of senior competition? If they're the best athlete they're the best. At the 1936 Olympics 13 year old Marjorie Gestring won the springboard diving event, at the 1952 Olympics 15 year old Barbara Pearl Jones won gold with the relay team in track, 14 year old Nadia Comaneci took AA gold in gymnastics in 1976 and of course Oksana Baiul and Tara Lipinski took their respective Olympic golds as teenagers. Injuries can happen at any age and most junior level athletes are doing the same number of jumps as the seniors. I think it's a crime that Mao Asada could not compete at the 2006 Olympics and the same for gifted gymnasts in the summer Games who did not make the age limit. I think they're should be an exception to the rules for children who are clearly exceptional. A country should be allowed to send their best athletes to the Olympics. Period.

It's not even about the skating. It's about putting someone who isn't legally capable of making major decisions in those type of situations. It's about preventing child abuse, imo - we hear horror stories about those extreme parents and frankly, I like that the ISU says no. Some things transcend the sport, and I would argue the rights of a child to be a child should be one of them.