I actually liked Mao's LP a lot. And I agree with feraina that her footwork was great- the best. I also like Joannie's LP a lot and am glad she is finally getting the PCS she deserves, As far as the Alissa vs Caroline vs Rachel, I do think the Caro/Rach combo has a better shot at getting three slots than Alissa/Rach. But that's what the US judges wanted and that is what it should remain. What I did see in Alissa tonight was determination. And she did not fall. Who knows how she will do in March but I think she might surprise us. And let the chips (but not the skaters) fall where they may.
Ladies LP - actual competition
- Thread starter beep_beep
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- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
After having watched it in super-slow-motion several times I am quite sure that the Toe was fully rotated. She does rotate a bit more on the ice - but that is because she didn't really stop the rotation and had too much momentum. What she does really well is that her combo isn't on a straight line, there is a bit of a curve in it - and that makes it quite hard to tell whether it's underrotated or not. Her speed throughout the combination makes it possible - Zhang is on standstill after the Flip, every underrotation is therefore easy to spot. I am not saying Yu-Na does this on purpose though.
The Triple Toe of the 2A-3T was seriously borderline though. I would have downgraded that one - more than the 3L in my opinion.
I was too tired/sleepy last night to attempt any comment after the competition, and I'm still zombified today lol (just made that word up, zombified lol). All the coffee in the world is not going to animate this little girl lolololol
There looks to be an interesting bunch of arguments on this thread, and perhaps I can muster enough concentration later to read through it all, but at this point, all I feel up to is very basic commenting (better late than never lol).
I am utterly thrilled for Joannie Rochette. Way to go, girl!
I think Yu-na Kim has probably turned out to be the overall best female single skater in the world under CoP, but I always fear for her physical fragility.
I did not get to see the ladies' short programs, so I really cannot adequately assess what happened to Mao Asada at this event. I think Mao has enormous talent, is a natural on the ice, and is certainly Yu-Na's best rival for the position of best female skater, but this event has got to be a huge disappointment for her. I have no idea what's wrong.
I am proud of Alissa Czisny for overcoming her nerves as well as she did; she is always loveable and lovely. I am proud of Rachael Flatt for the performance she gave, and it seemed to me she was doing her best to keep those shoulders up. Keep it up, Rachael!
I am proud of Caroline Zhang for her performance, which was lovely.
One can tell a lot from looking at a skater's face just before they perform, when they first get on the ice. Caroline gave the kind of performance I expected when I saw her face at the beginning. I am thrilled for her that she overcame past disappointments and did her best to rotate fully. Her expressed idol is Michelle Kwan, and I think that she has tried to skate a lot like her. Michelle was more about landing her jumps, than about speed. That was another era in skating standards, when falling was the big sin. Now, speed and textbook rotation are very important. I think Caroline is doing her best to get with the times, and I look forward to her future development.
To all the ladies who gave their all last night,
There looks to be an interesting bunch of arguments on this thread, and perhaps I can muster enough concentration later to read through it all, but at this point, all I feel up to is very basic commenting (better late than never lol).
I am utterly thrilled for Joannie Rochette. Way to go, girl!
I think Yu-na Kim has probably turned out to be the overall best female single skater in the world under CoP, but I always fear for her physical fragility.
I did not get to see the ladies' short programs, so I really cannot adequately assess what happened to Mao Asada at this event. I think Mao has enormous talent, is a natural on the ice, and is certainly Yu-Na's best rival for the position of best female skater, but this event has got to be a huge disappointment for her. I have no idea what's wrong.
I am proud of Alissa Czisny for overcoming her nerves as well as she did; she is always loveable and lovely. I am proud of Rachael Flatt for the performance she gave, and it seemed to me she was doing her best to keep those shoulders up. Keep it up, Rachael!
I am proud of Caroline Zhang for her performance, which was lovely.One can tell a lot from looking at a skater's face just before they perform, when they first get on the ice. Caroline gave the kind of performance I expected when I saw her face at the beginning. I am thrilled for her that she overcame past disappointments and did her best to rotate fully. Her expressed idol is Michelle Kwan, and I think that she has tried to skate a lot like her. Michelle was more about landing her jumps, than about speed. That was another era in skating standards, when falling was the big sin. Now, speed and textbook rotation are very important. I think Caroline is doing her best to get with the times, and I look forward to her future development.
To all the ladies who gave their all last night,
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2005
The decision for the world team has been made. Whether we feel it's right or wrong. There is nothing we can do about it.
The process for Alissa is a slow one. But I feel she is getting better. It was not a diaster like its been in the past. I'm hoping she will do well at worlds. I feel her momentum. I also feel that Rachael was a little underscored for what she did technically. I wonder if someone from Rachaels team reads these boards. She had a new SP dress, and her posture looks improved since Nationals.
So proud of Caroline. Maybe she will get respect next year and be the star of the GP's.
Way to go for the Canadian women. Remember all the complaints about them. They are going to be tough to beat next year. Everybody better look out.
I am not sure the 13 is going to be possible for the US, but I think its going to be close. They may need some mistakes from some others. But they have yet a month to work out the kinks, and we still have homecourt advantage. It seemed to work well for the Canadian girls.
The process for Alissa is a slow one. But I feel she is getting better. It was not a diaster like its been in the past. I'm hoping she will do well at worlds. I feel her momentum. I also feel that Rachael was a little underscored for what she did technically. I wonder if someone from Rachaels team reads these boards. She had a new SP dress, and her posture looks improved since Nationals.
So proud of Caroline. Maybe she will get respect next year and be the star of the GP's.
Way to go for the Canadian women. Remember all the complaints about them. They are going to be tough to beat next year. Everybody better look out.
I am not sure the 13 is going to be possible for the US, but I think its going to be close. They may need some mistakes from some others. But they have yet a month to work out the kinks, and we still have homecourt advantage. It seemed to work well for the Canadian girls.
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- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
So true. The world team has been chosen and we have to accept. Caroline's great results at 4CC is not going to change the "official team" which was clear at Nationals who was going to be sent.
We will just have to wait and see what happens, hope for the best and breath folks breath.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Let's take a look at the degree of inflation between National scores and 4CC scores.
................. Nationals ............. 4CC ............. inflation
Alissa ........( 178.06 ) ...........( 159.81 ) .......( 18.25 )
Rachael .....( 173.78 ) ..........( 162.83 ) .......( 10.95 )
Caroline .....( 171.08 ) ..........( 171.22 ) ........( -0.14 )
It seems like the judges at Nationals were very accurate in their scoring.
................... at least for Caroline. :sheesh:
................. Nationals ............. 4CC ............. inflation
Alissa ........( 178.06 ) ...........( 159.81 ) .......( 18.25 )
Rachael .....( 173.78 ) ..........( 162.83 ) .......( 10.95 )
Caroline .....( 171.08 ) ..........( 171.22 ) ........( -0.14 )
It seems like the judges at Nationals were very accurate in their scoring.
................... at least for Caroline. :sheesh:
All I am going to say is good for Caroline Zhang,
Good for Joannie, and congratulations it looks like you are skating with more confidence.
As far as sending Caroline to worlds , I was also one who wished they would have a skate off at 4cc's. They didn't and in a way I am glad. I think I would have been more mad if they didn't name the team from nationals.
It just means that Alissa and Rachel can't skate conservatively at worlds, they have to go for it. (in others words keep the 3-3 even if it is downgraded.
Good skate from Yu-na, Mao .
keep up the good work for all skaters, and have confidence in yourself when you skate.
Good for Joannie, and congratulations it looks like you are skating with more confidence.
As far as sending Caroline to worlds , I was also one who wished they would have a skate off at 4cc's. They didn't and in a way I am glad. I think I would have been more mad if they didn't name the team from nationals.
It just means that Alissa and Rachel can't skate conservatively at worlds, they have to go for it. (in others words keep the 3-3 even if it is downgraded.
Good skate from Yu-na, Mao .
keep up the good work for all skaters, and have confidence in yourself when you skate.
Rachael's score at nationals is ok, she was slightly overmarked in SP but she was the last to skate so the judges rewarded her a little more. The other things that might affect her score are her spirals, spins and her speed, those will be judged differently since there are so many international skaters doing much better than her.
Let's take a look at the degree of inflation between National scores and 4CC scores.
................. Nationals ............. 4CC ............. inflation
Alissa ........( 178.06 ) ...........( 159.81 ) .......( 18.25 )
Rachael .....( 173.78 ) ..........( 162.83 ) .......( 10.95 )
Caroline .....( 171.08 ) ..........( 171.22 ) ........( -0.14 )
It seems like the judges at Nationals were very accurate in their scoring.
................... at least for Caroline. :sheesh:
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Polymer,
I think Alissa and Rachel might have skated better at nationals when their wasn't as much pressue or expectations on them.
Now they know the public would like for them to get 3 for next years olympics.
It seems like they are skating to keep only their spots on the team and no one else's not realizing . If they lose a spot it might be their spot they lose next year.
think 1994
Nicole didn't make it out of qualifying it was up to Michelle at 13 to keep two spots . She did and she kept (as the saying goes) her spot on the team for the 1995 worlds.
I think Alissa and Rachel might have skated better at nationals when their wasn't as much pressue or expectations on them.
Now they know the public would like for them to get 3 for next years olympics.
It seems like they are skating to keep only their spots on the team and no one else's not realizing . If they lose a spot it might be their spot they lose next year.
think 1994
Nicole didn't make it out of qualifying it was up to Michelle at 13 to keep two spots . She did and she kept (as the saying goes) her spot on the team for the 1995 worlds.
I don't think Caroline was low balled at nationals anymore then the ladies not Alissa or Ashley. Caroline was faster here then at nationals. Watch this performance of the mule kick and at nationals and she did it better here. I think Caroline really put it all out there at this comp. She had things to prove and did it. It was all about Caroline for her here. I do think some skaters skate better internationally then at nationals. (I think like Sasha did in 2004 and 2005). Next season or the one after she is really going to the complete package if her technique doesn't cause a huge injury.
Alissa and Rachael have a lot of pressure on them. Alissa has never done well under pressure as far as I can remember. She's slowed way down. With less speed her spiral and her non layback spin aren't as impressive. Rachael looked tired here. I've only seen her lp because of internet issues at the time of her sp. I think she started her lp straighter and more dynamic then at nationals but when the music slowed she never could regain enough speed. I think with the time until worlds she can improve a little of her issues. This was not the best skate she can do.
I wish Alissa wasn't national champion.. I've re watched her program a zillion times. I don't think she has earned the benefit of sky high pcs's for that national skate. She didn't even land a triple in the second half and that whole part of the program lost stream and that has always been an issue in scoring. Here Alissa got better as the program moved on and Rachael got weaker and there pcs's were a lot closer then at nationals. I think Rachael and Caroline should have made up those 5 points easily. In a lot of ways Rachael was better at nationals then here (though it her carriage was better -at least at the beginning of her lp). Caroline was better here. This was also the first biggish international comp for Rachael while Caroline was at last season's gpf. Rachael seemed to have stamina issues here.
I really do think Mao could be the best ever. There's something special about her but she showed up here but not really. She was on the practice ice doing a run though. I really wish that she would find a real coach. I mean one who's there everyday in the trenches.
I can't really get into Yu na and I don't know why. (I love Brian though.) People compare her to Michelle and I just don't see it. Joannie is more like Michelle to me though more stiff and that split leap laughable in comparison.
Alissa and Rachael have a lot of pressure on them. Alissa has never done well under pressure as far as I can remember. She's slowed way down. With less speed her spiral and her non layback spin aren't as impressive. Rachael looked tired here. I've only seen her lp because of internet issues at the time of her sp. I think she started her lp straighter and more dynamic then at nationals but when the music slowed she never could regain enough speed. I think with the time until worlds she can improve a little of her issues. This was not the best skate she can do.
I wish Alissa wasn't national champion.. I've re watched her program a zillion times. I don't think she has earned the benefit of sky high pcs's for that national skate. She didn't even land a triple in the second half and that whole part of the program lost stream and that has always been an issue in scoring. Here Alissa got better as the program moved on and Rachael got weaker and there pcs's were a lot closer then at nationals. I think Rachael and Caroline should have made up those 5 points easily. In a lot of ways Rachael was better at nationals then here (though it her carriage was better -at least at the beginning of her lp). Caroline was better here. This was also the first biggish international comp for Rachael while Caroline was at last season's gpf. Rachael seemed to have stamina issues here.
I really do think Mao could be the best ever. There's something special about her but she showed up here but not really. She was on the practice ice doing a run though. I really wish that she would find a real coach. I mean one who's there everyday in the trenches.
I can't really get into Yu na and I don't know why. (I love Brian though.) People compare her to Michelle and I just don't see it. Joannie is more like Michelle to me though more stiff and that split leap laughable in comparison.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Let's take a look at the degree of inflation between National scores and 4CC scores.
................. Nationals ............. 4CC ............. inflation
Alissa ........( 178.06 ) ...........( 159.81 ) .......( 18.25 )
Rachael .....( 173.78 ) ..........( 162.83 ) .......( 10.95 )
Caroline .....( 171.08 ) ..........( 171.22 ) ........( -0.14 )
It seems like the judges at Nationals were very accurate in their scoring.
................... at least for Caroline. :sheesh:
This is a good example of not giving these PBs anything meaningful. Let's face it, home turf is one score, international judges is another, and that changes with different judges.
Best way to go, imo, is to list and add up the total number of scores after the Worlds and divide by the number of competitions entered into. What you will get is a skater's Seasonal Best.
Do Not Use Anyone's National Results for obvious reasons.
So if a skater was only in one GP, that score is his/her Seasonal Best
If a skater did 2GP plus a Final, plus 4CC or Euros,plus Worlds, add em all up and divide by 5 for Seasonal Best.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
I'm really tired from last night's live feed, so I did NOT read the last 20 pages because it's quite a lot and my internet lags.
About Joannie's sequence? IMHO, I think it might have been counted as a 3toe-half-1 salchow. Her leg position looks as if she was attempting a salchow but turned instead. I get the feeling that the salchow she did afterwards (might have) been counted as a solo 3sal instead.
You know, kudos to Caroline riding out her growth spurt well and being able to deliver FS standing up. But realistically, no matter how "clean" (being that she remains vertical) Caroline is, her lack of GOEs (or minuses) and her overall poor edges/ jump technique is going to hold her scores back. I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand. Yes, there is a portion for choreography and presentation in PCs. However, skating skills and transitions make up 2/5 (2/6?) of the PCs, which is translated from basics/technique/good edging.
Yes Caroline has lovely artistic presentation, the most controlled spins as of late, and good extension on spirals (albiet edges could be better) BUT you have to be smoking something serious to believe than she can pull a Sasha when she's competing against the likes of Yuna, Mao and Joannie.
About Joannie's sequence? IMHO, I think it might have been counted as a 3toe-half-1 salchow. Her leg position looks as if she was attempting a salchow but turned instead. I get the feeling that the salchow she did afterwards (might have) been counted as a solo 3sal instead.
You know, kudos to Caroline riding out her growth spurt well and being able to deliver FS standing up. But realistically, no matter how "clean" (being that she remains vertical) Caroline is, her lack of GOEs (or minuses) and her overall poor edges/ jump technique is going to hold her scores back. I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand. Yes, there is a portion for choreography and presentation in PCs. However, skating skills and transitions make up 2/5 (2/6?) of the PCs, which is translated from basics/technique/good edging.
Yes Caroline has lovely artistic presentation, the most controlled spins as of late, and good extension on spirals (albiet edges could be better) BUT you have to be smoking something serious to believe than she can pull a Sasha when she's competing against the likes of Yuna, Mao and Joannie.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
I find one thing very interesting. Take a look at what the USFSA has to say about the ladies' result on their web page. :scratch:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/
http://www.usfigureskating.org/
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
I don't think many posters or fans of Caroline think she can compete right now against , YuNa, Mao or Joannie, we are not blind or "smoking something" Why single Caroline out. Realistically what other lady has a chance to beat Joannie, YuNa or Mao.
Caroline is in the same group as the other ladies who are trying to place in the top ten and as much as I love Michelle and Sasha if they decide (big if) to come back they will be in the same group.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I am very happy that caroline skated well, and even better that she was happy with her skate and her scores. It is a crime that she cant go to worlds.
Nice job Alissa, and the scoring was appropriate this time.
I predicted that Yu-na would win with a sub-par freeskate, and I was right, but what bothers me is that she is trying the 3 loop again. I wish her coach woudl realize that she does NOT need it. With a clean skate she could easily win any event with a 2 axel in the place of the loop. Her 2 axels would get +GOE. I just fear for her hip everytime I see her do a triple loop.
I am also worried about Mao. She must be injured or sick. I healthy Mao would not have held back like that from the 3/3s. If she skated like she had eariler in the season with 2 triple axels and a 3/3 combo she might have even won. this girl continuous to be a mystery. One day she is unbeatable and solid as a rock, the next she looks beaten down and carrying the weight of the world. Whatever her probelms, I hope she can fix them before worlds.
Nice job Alissa, and the scoring was appropriate this time.
I predicted that Yu-na would win with a sub-par freeskate, and I was right, but what bothers me is that she is trying the 3 loop again. I wish her coach woudl realize that she does NOT need it. With a clean skate she could easily win any event with a 2 axel in the place of the loop. Her 2 axels would get +GOE. I just fear for her hip everytime I see her do a triple loop.
I am also worried about Mao. She must be injured or sick. I healthy Mao would not have held back like that from the 3/3s. If she skated like she had eariler in the season with 2 triple axels and a 3/3 combo she might have even won. this girl continuous to be a mystery. One day she is unbeatable and solid as a rock, the next she looks beaten down and carrying the weight of the world. Whatever her probelms, I hope she can fix them before worlds.
With five more points in her SP, Alissa would have ended up with 164.81 pointsand in 7th place behind Fumie Suguri and ahead of Rachael Flatt.
So, this event does indeed show that Alissa can beat Rachael if her SP reaches its full potential.
But what puzzles me is how come Zhang's programs did a lot better at 4CC than at Nationals. There is a disparity here that needs to be investigated: Either 4CC judges propped Zhang up or Nationals judges held her down.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
Exactly. If she had done a 2A instead of attempting 3L, she would've gotten over 120. But I guess if she had to try a 3R in real competition, it had to be this one since she was so far ahead. Can't she do a 3S or other triple instead of the loop? Does 2A have higher base value than a 3Salchow or 3F? Yu-na should NOT try the loop for the World's if she wants to win.
Well, I hope no one here is personally going after Alissa. I mean, what many people here want is fair judging. Now, if Alissa ended up with silver at US Nationals, I think a lot of people on this board would have approved.
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