Ladies short program

[demarinis5]

Thanks for the links. I liked everyone's program. Kimmie skating to TFB was very good. Her footwork was very fast and precise and I did see quite a bit of improvement in her artistry. Ando and Hughes had a lot of nice qualities about their programs that I enjoyed and I am sure as the season progresses we will see a much better SP from both of these ladies. Caroline had a spectacular debut, loved her program. She has her work cut out for her on issues of tech, speed and command of the ice to keep up with the top ladies. I think Caroline has the mental toughens to succeed. I was very impressed by this 14 year old she has a lot of heart to go along with her talent..

 

[Andalusia]

As for hurting other skaters. One could argue that the amount of attention that as thrown on Zhang at nationals, was a bit unfair to the actual winner of the competition Mirai Nagasu.

Perhaps you have a point. But Mirai was a complete unknown at the time, so her win came as a complete surprise, whereas Caroline had been winning everything left and right on the junior circuit and was already considered a bit of a sensation. And about Kurt mispronouncing Mirai's name, c'mon...I agree it was terrible that he called her 'Mary'...but it's not like anyone ever gets the name 'Zhang' pronounced right either.

I think Caroline might get a little more attention because she has a certain 'WOW!' factor - the copyrighted moves , the uber-bendiness, and perhaps a bit of a diva-like behaviour. Think Sasha Cohen No. 2. Mirai, OTOH, seems less fiery in disposition and, while flexible, is decidedly less so than Caroline. Who knows, though...the smoothness of her jumps might ultimately prove to be more reliable, and if she starts to have a better winning streak than Caroline, the spotlight might then be more focused on her.

I agree that the attention can't be all that healthy on Caroline. I think she might be the type to feed off of it, though, and she certainly looks like she can handle it. Perhaps she might find it tougher when she gets older. And really, like I said before, you do compare Caroline to Mao et al. very frequently, most often times unfavourably. There's no point in doing that; no one is making any comparisons in the first place and everyone acknowledges that Caroline has a long way to go before she can reach that stage. You're having a backlash against the hype, but the people who find CZ special will continue doing so anyway, and since you can only succeed in irritating them further (like moi ), why bother?

 

[emma]

Weeeeeeeeee! I love the beginning of the season! Thanks for the links. I've only watched Meisner and Zhang so far, but i was pleased with both. Sure, lot's to critique - Zhang's speed and jumps entries, Meisner, imo, still really needs to work on her coe of spiral, the change is way too obvious, and her timing seemed a bit off the music here and there (I think she might rush a little when she is nervous), not to mention underrotating the triple triple a bit. But, Zhang has presence in spades - and absolutley lovely positions; that last spin was . And, I'm very impressed with the choreography for Meisner, I really planned to hate this short program, and now find the layout quite interesting and Meisner performed it well for the first time, imo. I don't love the dress, but really think this program suits her and I really, really didn't expect that.

I can't wait to see the LPs!

 

[feraina]

Miss Zhang is a little girl. She jumps quite well, has extreme flexibility and probably lots of potential. But I still thinks she does not belong there on the ice to compete with women - I know that Mao also competed on the Grand Prix circuit at that age and I did not like that either. 16 is young enough, they do not need tiny kids there. But I stop talking about that now...

Did you see Binshu Xu in Ladies, or Kevin Reynolds in Men? They both look extremely young (I think in terms of skating maturity and artistry, they look "younger" than Caroline), and yet they are 18 and 17, respectively. Way over the ISU age limit. Should we ban them too? Because you're basing your argument on appearance not physical age, right?

Of course on average the younger skaters look younger on ice, because experience does matter. But on the other hand this is a competition, and there are rules that determine what constitutes a good performance, so let's apply the rules to all skaters regardless of age. And those "young" skaters just won't do as well --- we saw clearly that Reynolds despite his quad and Xu with her clean program came out with pretty low PCS's. If Caroline, despite looking "young", can garner high scores, it's because she has many other fine qualities that make up for her relative immaturity. I don't see why this sport needs to have an age limit when most sports don't (is there any other?!).

The argument about protecting the athletes is just bogus. There are plenty of ladies doing 3/3 on the JGP, and some ladies had their toughest jumps ratified on the junior circuit (like Miki's 4S). But anyway, that's another controversial topic that I don't want to get into...

 

[Mathman]

...but it's not like anyone ever gets the name 'Zhang' pronounced right either.

Thank you for bringing this up. The Zh is a voiced SH, like a French J, right? But does Caroline like to have her name pronounced to rhyme with "bong" or does she go with the Americanized version, rhyming with "bang" ?

 

[Mathman]

I'm still not convinced of the noun, hype. In the not so distant past we used the term gush and hype was left for the media.

I agree with that distinction. "Hype" (hyperbole) means describing something with excessively flamboyant adjectives ("the OJ Simpson trial was the trial of the century"). The purpose of hype is to generate interest and make the public think, hey, the OJ Simpson trial is the trial of the century, I guess I'd better tune in and drive up the TV ratings.

To me, "gushing" is more personal. "I just love Caroline Zhang's skating. I could watch her skate all day long! "

 

[cassieandcheetah]

could anyone tell me how to determine when someone's a good basic skater? I think I kind of know though. For instance, Michelle K.'s a better basic skater than Tara, and Mirai for instance is a better basic skater than Caroline, as the latter seems way too vertical on the ice....Is it just about deep edges and posture?

 

[feraina]

Thank you for bringing this up. The Zh is a voiced SH, like a French J, right? But does Caroline like to have her name pronounced to rhyme with "bong" or does she go with the Americanized version, rhyming with "bang" ?

Unfortunately it's a much harder-to-pronounce last name than Kwan, I was thinking that last night when I heard the announcer butchering her name yet again. It's not like anything in any indo-european language that I know of (that's consoling, I know!).

I started trying to describe it to you and found it was impossible, so instead, go to the following website, and click on "zhang1" in the first row, and you can hear it pronounced in Mandarin. It's not like the "j" in French, "r" in Chinese is much closer than "zh", but then it's not like anything else either.
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=sheet&wdrst=0&go=Search&wddmtm=0

 

[Andalusia]

Thank you for bringing this up. The Zh is a voiced SH, like a French J, right? But does Caroline like to have her name pronounced to rhyme with "bong" or does she go with the Americanized version, rhyming with "bang" ?

I've no idea what she prefers. But I'm inclined to think she would want it pronounced the way it's enunciated in Mandarin Chinese, which is Zh like the French J and the "ang" similar to the "ung" in "rung" of a ladder. The Americanized version sounds odd, at least to my ears, and at Skate America yesterday it was even worse - it's now "Zang" as in "Zing - Zang"!

ETA: To my surprise, the male Russian commentator actually pronounced her surname fairly right at the beginning of this clip (Skate America SP - the link to the American broadcast doesn't work for me):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJDDP-Al-gM

 

[zephyrskates]

I've no idea what she prefers. But I'm inclined to think she would want it pronounced the way it's enunciated in Mandarin Chinese, which is Zh like the French J and the "ang" similar to the "ung" in "rung" of a ladder. The Americanized version sounds odd, at least to my ears, and at Skate America yesterday it was even worse - it's now "Zang" as in "Zing - Zang"!

it's hard to assume, it's a matter of personal opinion, i for one let people butcher my first and last name. i find it to extraneous to teach everyone how to pronounce it in my own language.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think it's time for fans to discuss TECHNIQUE

IMO, height in jumps is not technique but a gift from the gods. However a skater could improve their height but not necessarily to the wow effect if it is not naturally there.

When a skater does a Lutz by definition, that means the skater has good technique in jumps. I'm not sure if technique is covered in the PCS scores albeit it could be in Skating Skills. I dunno. If it is we will never know if it were taken into account with all the other skills included in that umbrella.

One poster pointed out the change of edge of the Spiral. That requires technique so that the viewer can not see the edge change until after it happens.

Flow on Ice is a technique and can be trained, but it requires a lot of practice. To actually dance on ice into and out of the elements is what gets the layman to sit up in his seats, and me too. Doing jumps or mediocre connecting steps into a spin or jump and worse just using crossovers, to me is, why bother with music?

Speed is another technique to be worked on. While it is geared to the music a skater must consider the rhythym of the beat throughout the program.

There are more but I got home late last night (or was it early morning). So just know the difference between what a skater does (Technical) and how well the skater performs it (Tecnique) will define the superiority of the contestant.

A well executed small jump should be considered as better than a messy take off and landing of a big jump.

Joe

 

[Medusa]

Did you see Binshu Xu in Ladies, or Kevin Reynolds in Men? They both look extremely young (I think in terms of skating maturity and artistry, they look "younger" than Caroline), and yet they are 18 and 17, respectively. Way over the ISU age limit. Should we ban them too? Because you're basing your argument on appearance not physical age, right?

[...] If Caroline, despite looking "young", can garner high scores, it's because she has many other fine qualities that make up for her relative immaturity. I don't see why this sport needs to have an age limit when most sports don't (is there any other?!).

The argument about protecting the athletes is just bogus. There are plenty of ladies doing 3/3 on the JGP, and some ladies had their toughest jumps ratified on the junior circuit (like Miki's 4S). But anyway, that's another controversial topic that I don't want to get into...

I am basing my opinion on physical age, Miss Zhang just happens to be very young and look very young. I do not have a problem with young-looking athletes (Sasha Cohen never looked older than 15 for me), but I have one with too young athletes - in figure skating, gymnastics or tennis.

As for your question about age limits in other sports:

Q: Is there an age limit for Olympic athletes?
A: The only age limit for Olympic competitors are prescribed for health and safety reasons in the competition rules of certain IFs, including bobsled (minimum of 14 years old), boxing (17-32), diving (minimum of 14), equestrian (16 or older), figure skating (15 by July of previous year), gymnastics (must be 16 years old in Olympic year), judo (15 or older), luge (16 or older), soccer (under 23), team handball (over 18), weightlifting (17 or older) and wrestling (must be at least 17 on day of Opening Ceremonies). There are no general restrictions among the International Federations on an "upper" age limit.
From: http://www.usolympicteam.com

The NBA has an age limit too (19 years old / one year out of high school), for professional Tennis you have to be at least 14.

I also do not think that this is much about protecting the athletes physique but about protecting young children who are not allowed to vote, not allowed to decide for themselves, and about their lives for another 4 years but who have to compete under enormous pressure, have to endure the press. And it is also about their bodies, I do not know who said it about Miss Zhang, but someone said that she has to secure her jumps before the "puberty monster" kicks in. Last worlds everyone talked about Miss Meissner and Emily Hughes - how they "filled out". There is no such thing as the "puberty monster" - it is a very normal physiological process that happens to all of us. And if someone is not able to continue with the sport on the same level as she did before the puberty, than there is something wrong with the sport.

And if you let someone start at this early age at this level of competition, you put this person (in this case Miss Zhang), under such enormous pressure to stay "petite", "tiny". Now she is a good jumper and looks great on ice - and if she is getting good results against grown women, she will at a certain point be afraid of becoming older, of becoming a woman. At the latest she will become scared if she reads about the "puberty monster". There are also enough examples of lady skaters who could not maintain their level of skating throughout their growing up. This is the pressure I am talking about. And we worked so hard throughout the last 100 years in Europe and North America against child labour and in my opinion this is a very modern form of it.

 

[oxade21]

I don't see why this sport needs to have an age limit when most sports don't (is there any other?!).

This is the most strange (to say the least) statement I ever heard. Age restrictions exist in every sport deicipline where is even slight health concerns. It has nothing to do with the looks or technique. Of course, in case of ISU, the rules are very strange, when you can compete on one comeptition but allowed to do others. I believe junior requirments should less physically demanding and those restrictions should be strictly enforced, NO MATTER how gifted a skater is and how ealry in his life he can do quads or 3-3s.

 

[rain]

So much discussion of Zhang.... who I thought was lovely, but I thought clearly the best out there both technically and artistically was Meissner. I thought she was really impressive. She has come a HUGE way artistically in just the last two years. I think she now has it all. Obviously the end of the triple-triple was badly cheated and rightly downgraded, but the thing I love about Meissner is that she goes for it. I was also really impressed with her improved flexibility. It looked like she has really worked on that in both the spiral and spins. I thought this program looks excellent for her and really suits her.

Ando — I loved her costume. I think it's probably the most flattering skating dress I've ever seen her in. Hard fall. But prior to that I was not particularly impressed artistically with the program. She didn't show me anything different.

 

[Andalusia]

Totally agree about Meissner. Indisputably the best yesterday. She looks like she's gotten thinner, and I'm in the minority who thought the costume worked. And to think people were already writing her skating obituary. Maybe going to college is helping to mature her. That and Frank Carroll, who really does seem to work wonders...now about Evan...

 

[feraina]

Now she is a good jumper and looks great on ice - and if she is getting good results against grown women, she will at a certain point be afraid of becoming older, of becoming a woman. At the latest she will become scared if she reads about the "puberty monster".

I don't think Caroline seems like the kind of person who'd be "afraid" of anything like growing up.

There are also enough examples of lady skaters who could not maintain their level of skating throughout their growing up.

Growing up or growing "old"? Our brains start losing the capacity to add neurons and changing its structure in response to new experiences (i.e. "learning") from our late teenage years onwards (it's depressing but true, alas, I'm a neuroscientist). The rest of the body is the same, including muscle cells, although learning a skating skill mostly happens in the brain rather than in the muscles -- when people talk about "muscle memory", they are really talking about coordinated sequences of motor neurons firing in the brain. Muscle cells have no "memory."

There are some skills, such as skating, ballet dancing, playing a musical instrument like piano or violin, that simply cannot be mastered at an elite level unless you start young when your brain is highly plastic and open to learning. Should we not allow musical geniuses like Beethoven to compose and play the piano (possibly for an audience) because it's something you cannot learn unless you start young, and you must have an enormous amount of natural talent to begin with?

And we worked so hard throughout the last 100 years in Europe and North America against child labour and in my opinion this is a very modern form of it.

That's a bit extreme, isn't it? What about child actors? Child singers? Child musicians? At least in skating there's a distinction between amateur and professional (though not as much these days), and what they're doing is not purely for the entertainment of others. It's not like these kids are quitting school to skate for money. Who doesn't at least finish high school? And many of them think education is at least as important as skating, if not more.

 

[GoldMedalist]

No one was ever as precocious as Mao Asada at a very young age, landing 3F/3Lo/3T combo at 12 and triple Axel at 14.

Can she keep that lead, or will Caroline and others be able to catch up?

Underrotated (toe-axeled) 3T!!!

But, yeah, I don't think Caroline will be able to keep up. Jumping for girls doesn't get any easier after they pass that young stage and Caroline already doesn't have a real 3-3 combo, while Mao has multiple and a 3Axel. Caroline's talents should be appreciated, though. She has the best layback ever. :agree:

 

[feraina]

Jumping for girls doesn't get any easier after they pass that young stage and Caroline already doesn't have a real 3-3 combo, while Mao has multiple and a 3Axel.

Nobody should be compared to Mao jump-wise. She's not human, as my husband would say. Very, very few men can even land a 3A at 12 (cheated or otherwise). And men are genetically endowed with more muscle cells, stronger bones & joints, and a body shape that allows fast rotations. But even Mao landed many under-rotated 3/3's and 3axels (plus that 2A/3T last WC) in competition before she was given credit. So while there's no guarantee that Caroline will master the 3F/3T or improve her jumps in other ways, it sure bodes no particular ill that her initial attempts haven't been so successful (she only started trying the 3/3 in practice in March!), and besides it gives her experience including it regularly in h er programs.

IIRC, Yu-na started landing her 3F/3T consistently only when she was 16, and now she has the best ladies' 3F/3T in the world. And I think in an earlier thread, it was brought up that Irina learned (new) 3/3's well into her 20's.

If Caroline can't hope to improve on her jumps at 14, then everyone else who isn't already better than her on the senior circuit should just give up skating, because they are all more "old maids" than she is!

 

[bekalc]

Nobody should be compared to Mao jump-wise. She's not human, as my husband would say. Very, very few men can even land a 3A at 12 (cheated or otherwise). And men are genetically endowed with more muscle cells, stronger bones & joints, and a body shape that allows fast rotations. But even Mao landed many under-rotated 3/3's and 3axels (plus that 2A/3T last WC) in competition before she was given credit. So while there's no guarantee that Caroline will master the 3F/3T or improve her jumps in other ways, it sure bodes no particular ill that her initial attempts haven't been so successful (she only started trying the 3/3 in practice in March!), and besides it gives her experience including it regularly in h er programs.

IIRC, Yu-na started landing her 3F/3T consistently only when she was 16, and now she has the best ladies' 3F/3T in the world. And I think in an earlier thread, it was brought up that Irina learned (new) 3/3's well into her 20's.

If Caroline can't hope to improve on her jumps at 14, then everyone else who isn't already better than her on the senior circuit should just give up skating, because they are all more "old maids" than she is!

I thought that Yu-na started landing her triple flip/triple toe, her last year as a Junior...Because she hit that jump at Junior worlds and I believe at the Junior Grand Prix finalsa too. Yu-na just wasn't allowed to do it in the short program. In 2004/5? Yu-na hit a triple toe/triple toe. I totally agree though that Caroline is young and give her time.

 

[passion]

here ya go

I like miki's spiral position!

Mai Asada SP
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=pTeG4uwsB34

Kimmie SP
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUIcbnKRM8

Ando SP
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Q7Rvv22vs

Caroline SP
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax5iCbT_DVE

Hughes SP
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJQVuU2Tg4M

Thank you for posting these! I love Caroline's dress! She has such good taste when it comes to costumes. (Mira could learn a thing or two from Caroline). She does need to work on the entrance of her lutz and flip, though, because that high kick is too distracting, not to mention the wrong edge. At the same time, Caroline has some very strong aspects to her skating that are really superior to her competitors such as spins and spirals. She also has the "presence" that cannot be taught. That is a gift.

Kimmie really does have great speed. There is nothing about Hughes that makes me excited. I know people have mentioned about her weight, but I think that they should leave her alone because I can see that her body was not built to be long and lean. I think she is all muscle and not much fat.