Ladies SP

[chamisul]

Thanx, chamisul. I think I understand better now. I am guessing the ankle would bend outward probably right after(a fraction of a second after, not at the same time as your drawing shows) the inside-edge of her blade hits the ice, when she takes off. If she really used her inside-edge, this makes sense.

yup! you got it!
as you said, a fraction of a second after, her blade looks outside but its right after she does the toe-pick. This happens to lots of men also since when they are 3-turning, their blade can't be DEEP inside. so some of their ankle looks bent outwards while they are into inside curve with slight inside edge.
im sooooo glad you got it!

 

[shine]

what do you want me to do?
do you want me to actually wear a skate and do that for you? i bet you can't say a word when i actually show you doing that.
you said that's not the natural anatomy? than can you even move your ankle? cuz i can put my ankle outwards like that, that is possible because everybody can bend their ankles 'outwards'

First, I said it's not the natural anatomy for your ankle to be bent like that AND still achieve an inside edge. Second, the picture you showed on the last page, it still looks more outside than inside anyway.
Third, I thought THE point of the lutz IS to have your ankle bent the way that Yuna bends it so the angular momentum is opposite the direction of the rotation of the jump. The actual edge of the blade is just a natural consequence of the bent ankle. So with that shallow of an "inside" edge, as you claim it to be, the mechanism of her flip is still more like a lutz nonetheless.

 

[hsado]

People shouldn't look at her foot, as so many others have already pointed out, because the nature of perspective view is that it distorts, therefore unreliable (esp when Yuna takes off at an almost flat edge). Anyone who is familiar with graphical drawing should know that. Heck, I'm an architecture student and if an engineer ever tried to find measurements out of a perspective drawing, you'd seriously have a problem. Same situation with here. Best evidence for her edge (or any edge) is the tracing on the ice IMHO, because you're dealing with a simple flat plane, whereas if you take acount of her foot, leg etc you're dealing with complex geometry - and that would likely to end up as a subjective debate with ALOT of ambiguities lingering around

 

[shine]

Here is a video of Kim's 3flip-3toe in slo-mo from SA. It's clear that she takes off from an outside edge. It doesn't matter that she stays on a flat or "inside edge" for the longest time, the second she bends her ankle and swtiches to the outisde edge and takes off on it, IT IS A LIP.

 

[feraina]

I'm neither a rabid Yu-na or Mao fan (or hater), I happen to like both skaters a great deal, equally.

I know some of you are tired of yet another post on flip/lip, but since there were direct questions asked of me, I feel compelled to answer.

And, still you didn't talked about whether your considered the convention of 1/4 rotation less for judging an UR. I would appreciate your answer.

I have found that borderline 1/4 rotation UR's have often been downgraded in past competitions, with skaters other than Yu-na. Given that even in slow-motion, no one can tell for sure whether a jump is 269-deg or 271-deg rotated, it's not surprising that these tech panels sometimes downgrade these jumps inconsistently. Given how much Yu-na under-rotated on her 3Z this time, I'm not surprised at all that she was downgraded. And given the same criteria, it does seem she got the benefit of doubt with her 3F+3T in the SA LP.

IMHO, just let me re-iterate once more, I very much dislike the whole tech panel ideal. Besides the inherent subjectivity that's bound to cause inconsistency in calling from competition to competition, or skater to skater within a competition, I also dislike it because the definition of 270-deg as the border for "rotated" versus "under-rotated" jumps is so arbitrary! There's no reason why a 271-deg jump should get 5 more points than a 269-deg jump (even if one had the technology to really tell them apart consistently), because it is simply not that much better a jump!

You mentioned inside edge makes inside curve. From her filp video of SA, after straight line entrance after 3 turn, her left foot clearly turns inside just before take-off. But, you said the edge is clearly outside at that moment. Dosen't it contradict with your theory?

I said "typically" inside edge = inside curve. Not so in Yu-na's case. I've already posted two very long threads talking about why Yu-na's flip is a bit of an exception, if I haven't made myself clear already then I don't know how I can do so with more words.

 

[Mathman]

IMHO, just let me re-iterate once more, I very much dislike the whole tech panel ideal. Besides the inherent subjectivity...

I believe that the whole tech panel thing was an attempt by Mr. Cinquanta take power out of the hands of the member federations and put in in the hands of ISU officials. It seems obvious to me that nine heads (the judges) are better than three (the tech panel) at delivering opinions about the degree of underrotaion. And to tell the truth, I think every jump is both pre-rotated and under-rotated -- but that's just me. .

After the Salt Lake City judging controversy, much was made of the fact that judges can't help but be crooked because they are beholding to their national federation, not to the sport itself. I fell for that line myself. I don't know why we thought that having a three-person tech panel would be an improvement, either in the accuracy of the calls or in the lessening of temptation to succumb to bias.

 

[chamisul]

First, I said it's not the natural anatomy for your ankle to be bent like that AND still achieve an inside edge. Second, the picture you showed on the last page, it still looks more outside than inside anyway.
Third, I thought THE point of the lutz IS to have your ankle bent the way that Yuna bends it so the angular momentum is opposite the direction of the rotation of the jump. The actual edge of the blade is just a natural consequence of the bent ankle. So with that shallow of an "inside" edge, as you claim it to be, the mechanism of her flip is still more like a lutz nonetheless.

here, look at this picture

http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/31/tistory/2008/11/07/13/04/4913be3657cc3

she is doing spiral, her edge is CLEARLY INSIDE while her ankle is bent towards outside.
and FIRST OF ALL, SHE HAS NATURALLY BENT ANKLE.
as you can see, it looks exactly like the picture i drew.

and look at this one

http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/33/tistory/2008/11/07/13/05/4913be81eea43

from your opinion, mao is a lip jumper also, cuz her ankle is bent towards OUTSIDE

I'm looking for more of yuna's picture of ankle outwards w/ inside edge.
so wait and watch

 

[Mathman]

Chamisul, can you make that last picture smaller, please. It is strectching out the board and making it hard to read for some browsers.

In fact, it is prefered to post URL instead of IMG, to comnserve bandwidth and allow the page to load faster.

Thank you.

 

[skateaug]

from your opinion, mao is a lip jumper also, cuz her ankle is bent towards OUTSIDE

I'm looking for more of yuna's picture of ankle outwards w/ inside edge.
so wait and watch

Mao is a lip jumper according to this picture.

 

[hkim0604]

here, look at this picture

http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/31/tistory/2008/11/07/13/04/4913be3657cc3

she is doing spiral, her edge is CLEARLY INSIDE while her ankle is bent towards outside.
and FIRST OF ALL, SHE HAS NATURALLY BENT ANKLE.
as you can see, it looks exactly like the picture i drew.

and look at this one

http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/33/tistory/2008/11/07/13/05/4913be81eea43

from your opinion, mao is a lip jumper also, cuz her ankle is bent towards OUTSIDE

I'm looking for more of yuna's picture of ankle outwards w/ inside edge.
so wait and watch

Yes, this is the one that I watched on TV. When I didn't know which kind of cheating jumps Mao does, I thought she was LIPPER by watching this motion. But now I know this is FLIP - although her ankle is bent OUTSIDE. Yes, the angle of camera sometimes disguises what we should see. She jumps FLUTZ, not LIP.

 

[chamisul]

also, look at this picture
she has the perfect curves

http://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage....a1e344fd329b589&f_no=7fed8071dad137a520b5c6b2

the curves can't be created if she is skating with outside edge

YUNA IS NOT A LIP JUMPER

 

[Wrlmy]

IN on-demand vids are up. I'm extremely displeased with the camera work. It's so shaky and unfocused, I might as well film the event myself. It made every skater look amateurish.:disapp:
Laura is a great skater. I predicted her to be on podium, and I think I made right prediction for once Ashley is like a totally different skater from last year. She presents herself much more mature, and she's gorgeous.
Too bad about Sarah cuz I adore her program. I don't know why she is going for loop. She hasn't had any loop in her program for years. It's in no way consistent to put in the short.

 

[chamisul]

Chamisul, can you make that last picture smaller, please. It is strectching out the board and making it hard to read for some browsers.

In fact, it is prefered to post URL instead of IMG, to comnserve bandwidth and allow the page to load faster.

Thank you.

fixed it thanks

 

[Mathman]

 

[Bennett]

Too bad about Sarah cuz I adore her program. I don't know why she is going for loop. She hasn't had any loop in her program for years. It's in no way consistent to put in the short.

I think she was afraid of an edge call on the flip. But sure, landing it with "e" would have been better than falling on an URed loop. Hope she gets better in her LP.

 

[Wrlmy]

I think she was afraid of an edge call on the flip. But sure, landing it with "e" would have been better than falling on an URed loop. Hope she gets better in her LP.

Yeah, but she used to do salchow. Well done salchow with positive GOE is much better than a flip with mendatory -1 deduction or unstable loop. I hope she goes back to salchow. She already has a lutz combination, so she's not compromising too many points.

 

[Love_Skate]

feraina, thank you for the response.
First, I am sorry for making you keep writing something about tech panel thing that you dislike.

But the following remark from you really bothers me since there were only a few cases where the borderline rotation rule was necessary for her, mostly in SA and CoC this year. That's why she worked hard on jumps during her practice between SA and CoC.

I have found that borderline 1/4 rotation UR's have often been downgraded in past competitions, with skaters other than Yu-na.

I confirmed you know 1/4 rule. Now I hope you to watch Miki's 3L again. It was almost one revolution pre-rotated and 3/8 underratated to me.
And inside curve with outside edge is simply impossible as you know.

 

[shine]

here, look at this picture

http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/31/tistory/2008/11/07/13/04/4913be3657cc3

she is doing spiral, her edge is CLEARLY INSIDE while her ankle is bent towards outside.
and FIRST OF ALL, SHE HAS NATURALLY BENT ANKLE.
as you can see, it looks exactly like the picture i drew.

That is not EVEN close to the outward bent she had on her "flip".

and look at this one

http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/33/tistory/2008/11/07/13/05/4913be81eea43

from your opinion, mao is a lip jumper also, cuz her ankle is bent towards OUTSIDE

From this angle it is very difficult to judge whether it was an outside edge. It would be a lot easier if we could see it from right behind the feet. But from what I know Mao usually has a way more blatant inside edge on her flip and lutz and makes a obvious enough inside curve to have people even slightly suspect the take-off of her flip. Can't say the same for Yuna.
And in case you haven't realized, just because Yuna has a lip, it doesn't take anything away from the rest of her skating, or even the gorgeousness of her 3-3 combination. She doesn't have to be the most perfect thing in the world to be the great skater she already is, and people would not love her less now that her lip is finally being called.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Clean Program, wow
but the camera does no justice for any skaters for the event..


Yuna Kim

TCS 34.48
PCS 29.16

63.64

hmm...

it is crazy to me that she gets that much of a lower score compared with Skate America because of an edge call, while at SA she was this close to falling on that axel.
however, i did not see her skate at Cup of China, so there might have been other problems..

 

[ks777]

it is crazy to me that she gets that much of a lower score compared with Skate America because of an edge call, while at SA she was this close to falling on that axel.
however, i did not see her skate at Cup of China, so there might have been other problems..

Tinymavy, Yuna's 3lutz was downgraded.
Can someone please post Ashley and Katrina please? I am dying to see their SPs.