Let the Competition and Complaining Begin!

[oxade21]

Chan ain't doing any favors to himself. I hope judges are reading this tirade.
Two seasons at senior level skating and he manages to make so many enemies?
What did Yagudin do to you?

 

[dancingqueen]

And about the artistic - some people call him simply boring. And I can understand that, though I personally have a different opinion. Jeff was incredibly subtle as a skater. There was nothing really outstanding, no Joubert jumps, no Lambiel spins, no Takahashi footwork... I think you really have to love the subtle in order to enjoy Buttle, who was incredible in capturing every nuance of the music. He was like a harmonious impressionist painting from Turner. And hey, and not everybody loves those.

I see it completely differently about Buttle‘s artistry.
It looked to me, Buttle is more like a performer in a musical, theatrical in the sense that he over acts, clearly shows he is acting, ( nothing wrong with this, but to me , it’s over acting ) and this is not subtle to me. Unlike great movie stars who I don’t even notice they are acting ( that‘s what I call subtle ), they are the character they are portraying, they become that person. Especially Buttle’s smiling face while acting, this was overdone, IMO. I have same feeling for both of his Olympics performances.

Buttle, Abbott, Savoie they all have similarities in that way, to me. And their acting is very clear but not so deeply impressive to me.
Subtle to me is much deeper. It’s just personal taste.

However, I really admire Buttle’s beautiful posture and form.

 

[museksk8r]

Where exactly did Chan say HE is better than Yagudin or Kulik? He merely stated a fact, which I don't see why anyone would disagree. The non-jump elements today ARE much harder than they used to be, which is a natural result of skaters trying to max out their points under CoP. So what's wrong with pointing that out?? And I don't believe he singled out HIMSELF as doing everything better than the past greats; in his comments he used "our" or "we", which I take to mean the entire generation. And I am pretty sure these comments are a direct response to Joubert's sentiment that the sport is technically regressing. In the sport's defense, Patrick is trying to point out to outside observers that figure skating is evolving in everywhere else, even though the jumps may appear "less exciting" to some.

Thank you, voice of reason! It's clear to me that Chan's words are being twisted by his detractors, which is unfortunate.

However, I do think he could have said "the 6.0 generation" rather than specifically naming the skaters he did. That was opening up a can of worms for fans of those specific skaters to misinterpret Chan's words, which is exactly what is happening, but the media sure is taking a liking to feisty Patrick. Also, the comment about not liking Brian's "personality" could have been worded much better. Just because Joubert is hot-headed doesn't mean that is all there is to his personality. Also, I highly doubt that Chan even knows Joubert off the ice that well to be able to judge his true personality. All people have MANY sides to their personalities.

I laugh off this whole verbal blow-up between the two though because it doesn't matter what they say to the media. What matters is how they perform on the ice under the pressure of competition. Can their skates speak as loudly and confidently as their mouths? That remains to be seen.

 

[Medusa]

I see it completely differently about Buttle‘s artistry.
[...]

Buttle, Abbott, Savoie they all have similarities in that way, to me. And their acting is very clear but not so deeply impressive to me.
Subtle to me is much deeper. It’s just personal taste.

However, I really admire Buttle’s beautiful posture and form.

Interesting opinion. I just always thought that Buttle's smile is just part of the Buttle-package, just like Joubert's frown and Ando's bored facial expressions.
I agree that Savoie and Abbott are both similar to Buttle though.

When I think acting - I think Yagudin, Contesti, Candeloro, Préaubert to some extend.

 

[museksk8r]

When I think acting - I think Yagudin, Contesti, Candeloro, Préaubert to some extend.

Those are who I think of too, along with Bradley.

 

[seniorita]

out of subject, practice reports say that joubert jumps 4S and 4T-3T with ease.

 

[Medusa]

out of subject, practice reports say that joubert jumps 4S and 4T-3T with ease.

Doesn't get my hopes up. He did the same in Helsinki, the nerves got the better of him in the free (is that idiom correct?).

L'Équipe is reporting now, as are several other French news outlets.

 

[madibe]

I believe jourbert did indirectly attack him. He stated that he believe Evan to be his main competition because he had a quad. Now I think it a very disrespectful to dismiss the GPF champion and the guy with the highest score (because they haven't peformed a quad) and pick Evan as his biggest threat(who might not even medal).If that is not a personal attack of some sort, I don't know what is.
I wish chan and brian good luck.May the best man win.

Joubert is allowed to state his own opinion about who he thinks his competition will be. Saying that he thinks Lysacek is his biggest competition is not a personal attack to anyone, it's simply an opinion. And in an ice-network article, he mentioned that Chan, the North Americans, and the Europeans would all be fighting for a medal. And with your logic, Chan is disrespecting every guy that attempts a quad in his program by commenting on Joubert in the article.

 

[evangeline]

And what the heck is Kulik doing in Chan's reasoning (or should I say immature rant?)? Kulik, the man who did his jumps out of nowhere with incredible ease and height. Kulik, the man who had, in my opinion, the best spread eagle into 3A ever, and not a 1/10-second spread eagle like Mroz or Lindemann but a really long beautiful spread eagle into a perfect 3A. Kulik also didn't have front-loaded programs - just look at the Aladdin program, he was only 18 back then - but I find that program very entertaining and despite the different expectations concerning footwork and spins not at all empty. Notice the spin at the beginning where he incorporates the music and the story into the end of the spin. The second to last jump was a Triple Axel in that program.

Hurray for the Kulik love! ITA on Kulik's magnificent triple axel--I was completely stunned the first time I saw him do it. Or actually, whenever he got up into the air at all.

 

[sillylionlove]

Hurray for the Kulik love! ITA on Kulik's magnificent triple axel--I was completely stunned the first time I saw him do it. Or actually, whenever he got up into the air at all.

Kulik can still do those jumps with ease...just saw him on SOI and he is still amazing....but again what does he have to do with any of this?

 

[Medusa]

Hah! Watching ice-dance made me realise why I am actually with Brian on the "Quad is important"-wagon. Though I don't think he should have won last year, or spoilt Buttle's moment.

The thing is - the way Chan wants men's figure skating to be, it would be more like ice-dance than like men's single skating. And the trend has already started. Just look at the short program protocols last year, a quite big number of men do the exact same jump content: 3A, 3-3, solo Triple. Lots of men landed this. But then there were sometimes 20 points difference between the skaters who landed the same stuff - and I really asked myself back then: is the difference between Obscure European Skater No.37 and Jeff Buttle really more than 20 points? Just like in ice-dance - everyone does the same, and it's only about the tiny differences, or simply about reputation / lobbying.

I rarely watch ice-dance, because of this reason, because I can't really see any differences between No.2 and No.8. I don't want men's skating to turn into that.

And I don't know what Joubert thinks - but I could imagine that he meant that when he said that Worlds 2002 was so much more exciting to him. The Top 5 to 8 tried Quads in SP as well as LP. At least two Quads were necessary in the LP. How many men fell in the SP on the Quad and didn't have any chances for the rest of the competition? The results could be a lot more obvious, clearer to the audience, to the skaters.

Someone said, or someone wrote in an article this season: there already is a skating discipline that is all about edges, footwork and intricacy: it's called ice dance.

 

[mskater93]

I agree with what you wrote, but i would also add in that the technical side of skating is not just the jumps - it's also spins and footwork. When you look at technical as being the jumps, spins and footwork together I think Buttle had great tech.

Ant

I think Medusa meant that Buttle didn't have the best of any of those, but was strong (ie good) in each of those areas. You can't call strong but not the best in any of the three areas of tech mark "great tech". I'd call it good tech.

 

[bekalc]

One thing I will say about this, just because Yagudin and Kulik didn't do high level footwork and spins, doesn't mean they were incapable of doing so. Plushenko caught on to COP pretty quickly... I have no doubt that Yagudin and Kulik with their skating skills would have been able to do the same. Maybe it might lead to ONE quad jump instead of two quad jumps, but you know what both guys might have found that to be a relief. You don't see that many falls on footwork, do you?

I suspect Yagudin and Kulik would have an easier time adjusting to skating Chan's way than Chan would have skating Yagudin and Kulik's way.

 

[shine]

Hah! Watching ice-dance made me realise why I am actually with Brian on the "Quad is important"-wagon. Though I don't think he should have won last year, or spoilt Buttle's moment.

The thing is - the way Chan wants men's figure skating to be, it would be more like ice-dance than like men's single skating. And the trend has already started. Just look at the short program protocols last year, a quite big number of men do the exact same jump content: 3A, 3-3, solo Triple. Lots of men landed this. But then there were sometimes 20 points difference between the skaters who landed the same stuff - and I really asked myself back then: is the difference between Obscure European Skater No.37 and Jeff Buttle really more than 20 points? Just like in ice-dance - everyone does the same, and it's only about the tiny differences, or simply about reputation / lobbying.

I rarely watch ice-dance, because of this reason, because I can't really see any differences between No.2 and No.8. I don't want men's skating to turn into that.

And I don't know what Joubert thinks - but I could imagine that he meant that when he said that Worlds 2002 was so much more exciting to him. The Top 5 to 8 tried Quads in SP as well as LP. At least two Quads were necessary in the LP. How many men fell in the SP on the Quad and didn't have any chances for the rest of the competition? The results could be a lot more obvious, clearer to the audience, to the skaters.

Someone said, or someone wrote in an article this season: there already is a skating discipline that is all about edges, footwork and intricacy: it's called ice dance.

I think you do have a point and sometimes I do also find myself thinking that jumps should be rewarded more, or at least, failed jumps should be rewarded much less (such as in the case where 3 triple jumps won a certain major Nationals ) But frankly I think it's ridiculous to suggest that skaters should not focus on their non-jump elements "because it's going to turn singles skating into ice dance". If a discipline can wonderfully integrate the great aspects of other disciplines, what is wrong with that? Are you going to tell ice dancers to stop dancing to all these adapted-for-the-ice ballroom-style dances because we already have Ballroom Dancing as a separate sport? And what if a skater wants to skate with good edges and beautiful footwork AND do the exciting triple jumps? I think the key is to find a balance; and technically speaking, an ideal skater would be able to do exciting jumps with a good amount of non-jump difficulty. I think Lambiel was the last one to really achieve that.
Also, just because Chan embraces development in all technical aspects of figure skating, it doesn't mean he is going to neglect the jumps. Many of us are aware that he is still working very hard to make his 3axel consistent and is planning on getting a quad for next season.

 

[stevlin]

Buttle at Worlds 2008

I remember ol Dick Button saying that jeffrey Buttle won on the tech over brian Joubert. I believe all of Jeff's spins and footwork were rewarded 3 and mostly 4 levels. Sure jeff smiles, he is doing what he loves so why not smile? Who wants to look at a skater frowning? He is a joyful guy. He has a great family behind him and is very happy with life. What I love most about Jeff's skating is that he skates to the music and interprets it beautifully. Even right down to his finger tips.

 

[bekalc]

But I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. Did you mean that you would rather the difference between each skater's performance be the kinds of jumps they land, or maybe, the number of quads they land, rather than the difference in footwork, transitions, spins etc? How's merely following Joubert's suggestion of placing more value on the quad going to help singles skating become more entertaining?
Also, just because Chan embraces development in all technical aspects of figure skating, it doesn't mean he is going to neglect the jumps. Many of us are aware that he is still working very hard to make his 3axel consistent and is planning on getting a quad for next season.
Frankly I think it's ridiculous to suggest that skaters should stop focusing on their non-jump elements "because it's going to turn singles skating into ice dance". If a discipline can wonderfully integrate the great aspects of other disciplines, what is wrong with that? Are you going to tell ice dancers to stop dancing to all these adapted-for-the-ice ballroom-style dances because we already have ballroom dancing as a separate sport? And what if a skater wants to skate with good edges and beautiful footwork AND do the exciting triple jumps? You think we should tell him to make up his mind and choose one thing over the other?

Shine if the quad is worth more points, I don't think it's going to stop skaters from still wanting to have difficult footwork, spins etc.... I mean not having your levels up loses points and so that will continue.

But the fact is many of them men don't even both with the quad any more in the long program much less the short program. You don't think Joubert is right that many of the guys aren't saying that's not important..?

So yes, I agree with Joubert that the quad needs to be worth more. This doesn't mean footwork/spins should be neglected anymore, but just that quad isn't worth enough.

 

[Poe-Kat]

Patrick Chan can...

...run his mouth. He's in a country that lets him. I think it's a good thing, cuz now we know what HIS personality is like! I'd like to talk to him in about 10 years and see what kind of cha-ching his skating earns him. There's nothing wrong with sticking up for your buddy Buttle, but it goes all wrong when you have to resort to making one guy look good by trying to make the other guy look bad. End result - Chan comes off sounding like the one who is not so sportsmanlike. I've met Joubert and I know some folks who have spent a lot of time with him. Not once, did I ever hear that he was a snot or a jerk. Now Chan, on the other hand, seems to be starving for attention.

 

[i love to skate]

...run his mouth. He's in a country that lets him. I think it's a good thing, cuz now we know what HIS personality is like! I'd like to talk to him in about 10 years and see what kind of cha-ching his skating earns him. There's nothing wrong with sticking up for your buddy Buttle, but it goes all wrong when you have to resort to making one guy look good by trying to make the other guy look bad. End result - Chan comes off sounding like the one who is not so sportsmanlike. I've met Joubert and I know some folks who have spent a lot of time with him. Not once, did I ever hear that he was a snot or a jerk. Now Chan, on the other hand, seems to be starving for attention.

And I've never once heard that Chan was a snot or jerk. From what I hear, everyone who has ever met him has wonderful things to say. Chan is hardly starved for attention either.

 

[Poe-Kat]

Chan: Still Wet Behind the Ears

I'm not calling Chan a snot or a jerk, I'm simply saying that I think Joubert has been unfairly portrayed by Chan, nor am I saying that Chan is not essentially a nice guy. What I am trying to illustrate is that, in my opinion, Chan appears to have gotten caught up in the moment.

 

[jettasian]

I'm not calling Chan a snot or a jerk, I'm simply saying that I think Joubert has been unfairly portrayed by Chan, nor am I saying that Chan is not essentially a nice guy. What I am trying to illustrate is that, in my opinion, Chan appears to have gotten caught up in the moment.

Whatever. Hope you will live up to your words and will talk to Chan in 10 yrs to see what skating career he has accomplished.