Michelle - Good News/Bad News

[millie]

How could we not believe either one of them, unless evidence presents itself to suggest otherwise. I wonder about those who would just choose to think they're lying ... for what reason? It's an odd thing to me to suspect someone (anyone) of something ... for no other reason than just because.
Of course, anyone can say anything they wish to. But that might say more about them than the people they speak about.

Don't take this personally, this is about opinions. Opinions that everyone has a right to. When fans start to take threads personally when somebody is talking about an opinion they may have on a skater I called that obsessed. It might say more about them than the people they speak about.

 

[nymkfan51]

You may choose not to believe this millie, but I don't take anything personally anymore that I read on skating forums. And, I don't really care who likes or doesn't like Michelle, or any other skater for that matter. I just have a hard time understanding why someone would accuse any athlete of lying about an injury, for no reason at all.
Of course, as you say, everyone is entitled to their opinion ... it just makes for a whole lot more interesting and intelligent conversation when folks have some basis for the statements they make.
To each his own I guess.

 

[Bijoux]

I don't think it is alll speculation, it is either believe Dr. Yu and usfsa or not. Kwan's doctor's medical diagnosis of strained ligament was announced officially in the usfsa site. Since Dr. Yu examined Kwan, and took the responsibility to make a diagnosis and recommend treatment, and all of the above was announced in usfsa then it is as official as it can be. Posters are free to either believe what is announced at the usfsa official site or not. If they don't t believe Dr. Yu and usfsa then it is implied that they believe Dr. Yu and usfsa were either incompetent or unethical or both, now that is some convoluted conspiracy theory.

As I said in another thread recently, pain is a subjective diagnosis. If Michelle has a strained ligament, she will have pain and tell her doctor who will back her up, esp. given that she isn't usually "injured" and he does not see her as a "malingerer" I am assuming.

But their is only one way a practitioner of medicine could arrive at this. Especially an orthopod. He/she would need training in a muscle testing procedure called Applied Kinesiology. Her muscles might test weak. Those around or related to the ligament. I don't think this would show up on a scan of any kind. Or am I wrong? Same with Sasha. At that level, it is quite easy to get one's own personal elite sports doctor to sign off on pain and rest needed. Given Oly season and how athletes are bailing from GP and other events if they are not ready, and Speedy's dictums, I think it's natural for us to be a little sceptical or even cynical. People and federations can be very tricky, esp when Olympic medals are on the line. We'll have to wait and see at Nationals. I'm guessing to see how Michelle skates. I'm a little more suspicious of Sasha's withdrawal from SA.

 

[chuckm]

Don't take this personally, this is about opinions. Opinions that everyone has a right to. When fans start to take threads personally when somebody is talking about an opinion they may have on a skater I called that obsessed. It might say more about them than the people they speak about.

Skaters are injured all the time, and drop out of events with injuries all the time.
So far on the Grand Prix:

MEN: Skate Canada: Lun Song, no reason given.
LADIES:
Withdrew from all events, Retired: Angela Nikodinov, Jennifer Kirk
Withdrew from all events with injury: Michelle Kwan, Cynthia Phaneuf, Lina Johansson, Yukina Ota
Withdrew from one event, injury: Sasha Cohen, SA
Withdrew from one event, illness: Susanna Poykio, SC
Withdrew from one event, no reason given: Candice Didier, Jenna McCorkell, SA; Miriam Manzano, SC; Karen Van Huizen, CoC
PAIRS:
Withdrew from all events, retired: Shapiro/Akolzin,
Withdrew from all events, split: Besandigova/Bestandig, Ponomarenko/Blanchard, Kawaguchi/Patrick,
Withdrew from all events, injury: Shen/Zhao
Withdrew from all events, no reason given: An/Wu
Withdrew from one event, injury: Orscher/Lucash
Wthdrew from one event, no reason given: Rennik/Saks, SA; Boguskavska/Brovenko, SC; Ding/Ren, CoC;

ICE DANCE:
Withdrew from all events, retired: O'Connor/O'Dougherty, Gudina/Beletski
Withdrew from all events, split: Pachlova/Knoth, Cappellini/Zanni
Withdrew from all events, no reason given: Yang/Gao, Wang/Meng
Withdrew from one event, injury: Denkova/Staviiski, SC
Withdrew from one event, illness: Hoffmann/Elek, SC
Wthdrew from one event, no reason given: Rennik/Saks, SA


Are we to assume that all the skaters who withdrew with illness or injury are feigning? Or are the ones faking are only the ones certain posters don't like?

I suspect it is the latter.

I think Sasha is more suspect than Michelle simply because this is the second year in a row that Sasha has withdrawn with injury. The last time Michelle skipped a scheduled GP event due to injury was more than 8 years ago.

But I do accept that a real injury IS the reason Sasha withdrew and do not accuse her of conspiring with medical personnel to evade ISU rules.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Are we to assume that all the skaters who withdrew with illness or injury are feigning? Or are the ones faking are only the ones certain posters don't like?

I suspect it is the latter.

Of those skaters, though, except for Shen/Zhao, whose injury was severe enough to require surgery, only three were expected to make the GPF if they skated all of their events (Kwan, Cohen, Denkova/Staviski) and one had a very good chance (Poykio).

I'm not so sure it's GP that's such a problem: it's GPF. No one wants to travel to do it anymore, especially when it's held in Asia, where only a limited number of skaters train, and when it's held so close to nationals. It's one thing to skate a couple of times in the fall, if the schedule works out so that training isn't completely disrupted, but GPF in December plays havoc with the "attempt to peak" schedule, because who wants to be beaten by one's biggest rivals in head-to-head competition at that time of the year?

 

[Mathman]

...GPF in December plays havoc with the "attempt to peak" schedule, because who wants to be beaten by one's biggest rivals in head-to-head competition at that time of the year?

Bad on 'em if the skaters have this attitude. You should be eager to beat your biggest rivals in head-to-head competition at that time of year -- or any time!

 

[millie]

I am not saying that the skaters are not injured. Well Sasha had a contusion on her hip, that the doctors could see.

What I am trying to say is that these skaters practiced all summer, no injuries. Then well all of a sudden when they are supposed to skate, they are injured. It leaves us with two scenarios, they are injured and can't skate or they just don't want to skate, to save the wear and tear on their bodies.

This is a discussion board, just expressing our opinions! I don't think what we discuss is going to be detrimenal to these skaters.

Hope they are on the ice soon.

 

[Mathman]

I don't think what we discuss is going to be detrimental to these skaters.

That's the smartest thing yet on this thread. I sometime wonder if skaters read these boards, just for a good laugh.

MM

 

[gezando]

As I said in another thread recently, pain is a subjective diagnosis.

You mean subjective complain/ report. Technically only MD, NP, PA or people who are trained and board certified are able to make dx.

If Michelle has a strained ligament, she will have pain and tell her doctor who will back her up,

If Dr. Yu is doing his job he would listen to his pt's subjective complain.

given that she isn't usually "injured" and he does not see her as a "malingerer" I am assuming.

I hope a certified sports medicine specialist would take the subjective complain, do a PE, run diagnostic tests to get the entire picture. Of course malingering is a diagnosis of exclusion, i.e. exclude all possible causes before calling someone a malingerer. Now, if you ASSume that Mk is malingering without listening to her complain/ report, doing a PE, perform appropriate diagnostic tests, then all I hope is that if you do practice medicine of any sort you would abide by your profession's practice guideline and do not ASSume your pts are malingering (that is flirting with malpractice IMO).

But their is only one way a practitioner of medicine could arrive at this. Especially an orthopod. He/she would need training in a muscle testing procedure called Applied Kinesiology. Her muscles might test weak. Those around or related to the ligament.

Yes, most likely the muscles connected to the strained ligament will become weak, as the body as a reflex try to protect itself. Yes muscle weakness can be detected. BTW, for your conspiracy theory to work, not only does the skater has to lie, the skater has to consistently show the same pattern of muscle weakness. (So are you ASSuming that Kwan lied about pain on one side or bilaterally??) Don't ya think, if she complains of e.g. R hip pain, then her R muscles would test weaker than the L side?? There are professional malingerers who may at times be able to fool a medical professional's comprehesive tests and workup, but and they spend a lot of time practicing their trade. To say that skaters are malingering, you have to ASSume that they know the pattern of muscle weakness, the distribution of pain etc that is diagnostic of strained ligament.

.

I don't think this would show up on a scan of any kind.

I imagine the MD will also perform all kinds of scans to rule out e.g. cancer etc. Most likely it won't show up in any kind of scan. So what is your point. Scans are just part of a comprehensive work up to rule out or rule in diagnosis. Different scans have different sensitivity and specificity, you can not categorically claim that scans are better as a diagnostic tool than "applied kinesiology" BTW, since you name the test, what is the sensitivity and specificity of applied kinesiology?? Most sports medicine specialists are good at detecting malingering.

Same with Sasha. At that level, it is quite easy to get one's own personal elite sports doctor to sign off on pain and rest needed.

What your assuming falls apart, IMO is that you assume that strain ligament is diagnosed solely on the basis of the pt's subjective complain. Now if you can dig up the orthopod/ sports medicine's practice guideline, and every specialty has its own list of practice guideline, and if indeed the practice guideline states, Pain is the definitive diagnosis of strain ligament, then your ASSuming may IMO hold half a drop of water.

Given Oly season and how athletes are bailing from GP and other events if they are not ready, and Speedy's dictums, I think it's natural for us to be a little sceptical or even cynical. People and federations can be very tricky, esp when Olympic medals are on the line. We'll have to wait and see at Nationals. I'm guessing to see how Michelle skates. I'm a little more suspicious of Sasha's withdrawal from SA.

Oh, you don't have to explain why you arrive at such a convoluted conspiracy theory. I mean afterall, some people believe that the HIV virus came from the government and is used to infect minority population. I am sure they see all sorts of signs for their ASSuning, HIV infect minority poppulation in a higher rate etc. I mean if you are happy in spinning your conspiracy theory, involving skaters lying, and perform consistently to the physical exam, the usfsa's official consultant orthopod, and usfsa all conspire in this plot of yours go ahead and enjoy.

 

[R.D.]

What I am trying to say is that these skaters practiced all summer, no injuries. Then well all of a sudden when they are supposed to skate, they are injured. It leaves us with two scenarios, they are injured and can't skate or they just don't want to skate, to save the wear and tear on their bodies.

Yes. This nails it down. This is the main reason why there is so much suspicion: the timing is so shady on both announcements (from Kwan and Cohen). Honestly, we can't ever know if they are really injured or not (simply because we are not there. And gezando, if you're reading this, remember that the USFS, doctors, etc. can tell the public anything they want to. I'm not accusing them of doing this, just saying it's not totally impossible. Just think about politics for a second. ) We have to be fair and consider both sides of the equation. And considering this issue of timing, I don't think the suspicion is so far-fetched, really. But some people maybe can't bear the possibility that MK (or SC) might pull something (no matter what it might be) to better themselves when it comes time for the Olympics. Remember, we don't know these people! (Once again, living up to my custom title.)

 

[gezando]

Honestly, we can't ever know if they are really injured or not (simply because we are not there.

Or even if we are there, because soft tissue injuries is not like a motor vehicle accident that you can pin point at what is the exact time that it happens.

USFS, doctors, etc. can tell the public anything they want to.

Sure the orthopod can do that, thus taking risk of violating all sorts of ethics and regulation of his profession, and for what???

I'm not accusing them of doing this, just saying it's not totally impossible.

I am sure it is not toally impossible that HIV is a government conspiracy either , and I am sure that space alien abduction is not entirely impossible either.

Just think about politics for a second. ) We have to be fair and consider both sides of the equation.

Oh, I consider the the conspiracy theory, and concluded it is as plausible as space alien abduction, can't say it is entirely impossible.

This conspiracy theory ASSume that skaters are masterful in reproducting the same pattern of weakness everytime, and even professional malingerers can't do that consistently. They have to believe that the sports medicine specialists are violating all sorts of professional ethics, ignoring their practice guideline of how to diagnose soft tissue injuries andn usfsa somehow is either too incompetent or corrupted to get into it. For what. All you can say is skaters malinger to get unfair advantage. Why would an orthopod like Leisure Yu who is on faculty at a major university, who has good grant money, risk his profession and reputation???

But some people maybe can't bear the possibility that MK (or SC) might pull something (no matter what it might be) to better themselves when it comes time for the Olympics.

BTW, you just contradict yourself, in an earlier post you said, it is their loss for not going to GP, and get experience in COP. Then of course that contradict an even earlier post that you think not participating in GP is a better deal.

Maybe some people weigh the medical, scientific, and ethical evidence involved, and come to more likely conclusion. That is exercising the same reasoning to conclude that the possiblity of HIV is a government conspiracy is as convoluted as this almost delusional ASSuming of skaters are lying, the MDs and usfsa are incompetent, unethical and corrupted.

 

[gezando]

I am not saying that the skaters are not injured. Well Sasha had a contusion on her hip, that the doctors could see.

Are you sure that the contusion could be seen?? That depends on the location of the contusion doesn't it""

Discussing the skaters lying are not detrimental to them, but these conspiracy theories also implied that the MDs who are treating them are either incompetent, unethical or both.

 

[R.D.]

Or even if we are there, because soft tissue injuries is not like a motor vehicle accident that you can pin point at what is the exact time that it happens.

Ah, exactly. Glad to see a point of yours that I agree with.

I am sure it is not toally impossible that HIV is a government conspiracy either , and I am sure that space alien abduction is not entirely impossible either.

To each his own, Gezando, to each his own.

That is exercising the same reasoning to conclude that the possiblity of HIV is a government conspiracy is as convoluted as this almost delusional [assuming] of skaters are lying, the MDs and usfsa are incompetent, unethical and corrupted.

Hey, some people may actually believe that.

 

[gezando]

Ah, exactly. Glad to see a point of yours that I agree with.

All that means is that layman can not make a diagnosis of soft tissue injury even if they are there, but board certified medical specialists guided by their training and their profession's practice guideline can make a diagnosis even if they are not present at the time of injury. I also believe that the specialists have the abillity to tell malingering apart from real injury, because that is in their training too.

Hey, some people may actually believe that.

Well, like I said before, if people want to believe these skaters/ orthopod/ usfsa, and HIV government conspiracy theories and are happy in their own world/ mind then be happy

 

[mzheng]

I watched the same interview, and tit was not my interpretation that she was making a committment to SA. Why should camp Kwan give an offical explanation, she did not officially made a committment.
.

Yeah, my impression at the time was she was trying to explain something, but Peter cut her short. I got the feeling she was trapped in Peter's trick questions.

 

[mzheng]

Now, I hardly believe that being a Kwaniac automatically makes you a good person (or, I suppose, a bad one for that matter), which I feel is what you're implying. It's about the type of people that make up that community, and they just happen to be fans of X-skater. Also- people at SashaFans tend to be mostly young girls. MKF I bet has a more middle-aged population (with both young and old filling in the ranks as well). I think that might also have something to do with it.
:

Me neither. But neither it make them automatically evil like some tried to post on them!

 

[millie]

Are you sure that the contusion could be seen?? That depends on the location of the contusion doesn't it""

Discussing the skaters lying are not detrimental to them, but these conspiracy theories also implied that the MDs who are treating them are either incompetent, unethical or both.

Welcome to the real world! This going on all the time in the real world!
If an employee goes to an employer with a letter from a physican stating that they cannot work because they have an injured back, leg, groin or whatever. The employer has to take that letter at face value, no if, ands or buts about it. Now if the employer do not believe that the employee has theses problems, there is nothing that he or she can do about it. They cannot question the physican(patient-physican confidentually). Unless they take it to court and try to prove that he or she is faking it. Facts.

 

[R.D.]

Welcome to the real world! This going on all the time in the real world!
If an employee goes to an employer with a letter from a physican stating that they cannot work because they have an injured back, leg, groin or whatever. The employer has to take that letter at face value, no if, ands or buts about it. Now if the employer do not believe that the employee has theses problems, there is nothing that he or she can do about it. They cannot question the physican(patient-physican confidentually). Unless they take it to court and try to prove that he or she is faking it. Facts.

YES! Not to mention doctor's notes are often required by many institutions in order to "skip" work or school.

 

[gezando]

Welcome to the real world! This going on all the time in the real world!
If an employee goes to an employer with a letter from a physican stating that they cannot work because they have an injured back, leg, groin or whatever. The employer has to take that letter at face value,

But the discussion is not on whether face value is taken. It is on whether Dr. Yu in this case is taking a risk of violating professional ethics, or is he that incompetent and not be able to correctly diagnose an injury. In order for the convoluted conspiracy to work, you have to ASSume that Dr. Yu is either unethical or incompetent. And what is his incentive to do so?? If you look at his CV online, he is on faculty at a major university, he has research and private practice and is a consultant to usfsa. So n ame one reason why he wants to risks losing his medicla license??

YES! Not to mention doctor's notes are often required by many institutions in order to "skip" work or school

Sure, so what is the point?? Next time you ask for a doctor's note to skip work or school, you are just malingering???

 

[Mathman]

This argument is getting boring, guys.

I know, I know, I don't have to read it.

But I do. As a moderator I have to read every thread, just to make sure people aren't cussing at each other. How about a little mercy?

MM