Nathan Chen issues apology for interview

[el henry]

Nathan thought that an apology was necessary, and I am not going to second-guess him: I support that decision, so I'm Team Nathan too.

(Also, as an aside, it appears that some folks have not seen the original video? Nathan was not asked if he was gay or straight, at all, ever. I thought the question was stupid: hey, what do you say to all those folks who think figure skating is a girls' sport and why don't you just play hockey, yuk yuk yuk, but Nathan was never asked about his sexuality. At least that I saw, if I missed it, please let me know).

I know I keep harping on the same thing, but I am so puzzled: Nathan decided to apologize, presumably Nathan asked to have the video taken down, yet somehow it is supporting Nathan to disregard all that? It does not compute.

 

[shine]

Thanks for answering. For better or worse I appear to be mired in this thread, so I think I can say that I have seen no one on Goldenskate come close to the land of the thousand hot takes. If someone doesn't care to show themselves here, well, too bad, I'm not assuming they're there.

I do think some people were actually really hurt by Nathan's comments, they had no agenda, they weren't superfans of a particular rival of Nathan's, and I think that's who his apology was directed to. ( And it wasn't *just* the remarks about gays, I remember something about "females", and as a "female" I did think, wow, that wasn't the world's best phraseology. But I sure didn't care enough to tweet about it. Then again, there are very few things I care enough about to tweet )

Of course, not every gay person is going to feel the same way, just like not every straight person is going to feel the same way. Pretty dull world if we did.

The full quote where he said “females” is as follows:
“I think that there is that connotation and there is that "Well we don't really wanna watch guys skate around," and [unintelligible] we'd rather watch hockey or... we'd rather watch females do that, which I think is... pretty messed up in itself...”

I’m honestly starting to question my own comprehension ability for I simply can’t see how saying “females” in this particular context is in anyway offensive, unless you disagree with him that this is the general public/laymen’s uneducated view of figure skating? But then why else do you think men’s skating gets so little traction/viewership in the US compared to women’s if this wasn’t the case? Many people freaked out seemingly just because they heard “females”. So maybe context doesn’t matter.

 

[el henry]

The full quote where he said “females” is as follows:
“I think that there is that connotation and there is that "Well we don't really wanna watch guys skate around," and [unintelligible] we'd rather watch hockey or... we'd rather watch females do that, which I think is... pretty messed up in itself...”
I can’t see how saying females in this context is in anyway offensive, unless you disagree with him that this is the general public/laymen’s uneducated view of figure skating? But then why else do you think men’s skating gets so little traction/viewership in the US compared to women’s if this wasn’t the case?

But that's exactly it: I said that was my initial reaction, and it may have been colored by the "I'm a straight male" and the "homosexual dominated sport" that came right before it, where I was like, whoa, Nathan, I admire you as a person and I know you didn't mean that the way it sounds. ETA: Which Nathan himself has since ackowledged: how it sounded, and how he didn't mean it that way,

So that's exactly what I mean, I was thrown off by it, but it was certainly not the worst thing in the world either. And I'm certainly willing to admit I could have been inordinately influenced by what went before.

I have no interest now in the original interview, though, because clearly Nathan has no interest in it. And he has no interest in defending it. So people who claim to be "supporting" him by defending it, when he himself doesn't, I just don't get.

 

[Mamamiia]

Saying “I am not offended” or “what he said isn’t untrue” doesn’t automatically equate to defending Nathan though. It’s just a personal view on the topic being brought up rather than judging Nathan. I really appreciate people brought their own stories in this discussion. As a fan of Nathan’s it’s comforting to know that so far no one in this thread seems really offended by his wording.

 

[moonvine]

Thanks for voicing your experience - I can imagine it applies to a lot of other guys as well. Having loved and followed men's figure skating for over four decades now, I am thankful for every guy having held on to their sport despite peer pressure to drop it and feel sad for all those who did not have the strength to resist.

In the 1992 Olympics press conference, the men's figure skating medalists were asked point blank whether they were gay or not. I remember this because the biggest newspaper wrote it up, heartily disapproving the question, BUT also publishing their replies verbatim. That was ofc 1992, almost a different universe, but that the issue of sexual orientation still gets to be a talking point with male figure skaters feels more than a little sad. (In 2011, Mary Louise Adams published a book about it, Artistic Impressions: Figure Skating, Masculinity, and the Limits of Sport.)

That said, I was at first a bit surprised that Nathan did not have some kind of prepared reply for that - similar questions must have been asked before? Then I started wondering about this, because my surpise was partly based upon reading/watching/listening every interview Javier Fernández has ever made (and I could get my hands on). He has been asked similar questions, usually phrased to concern bullying by his peers because he was skating instead of playing football. It has come up pretty regularly, maybe once a season on average.

Does the media in the rest of the world do that a lot still? I could not imagine Russian or Japanese guys getting asked anything like that.

Also, who gets those questions? Is it the guys who the journalists think are straight or gay?

E

[Just as a side issue here, Javi's media mess at Sochi was sometimes referred to in the Twitter discussion (and also mentioned in thie thread) and I had to remind myself what happened. Before the competition he gave an interview to a Spanish paper, El Mundo, and it was published in Spanish. He was asked about the Russian antigay legistlation and he replied "The Games are about sport and not politics. I have my opinions and I don't get involved in what others think, but I think whether we like it or not, we have to respect the laws of the countries we visit. It's not such a big dilemma. It's better that homosexuals lie low a bit during the Games and then afterwards they can get on with their lives." (Translation from The Guardian.) Perhaps not the best choice of words there. That was obviously not received very well in Spain/Spanish speaking world. He has said that he even got death threats. I don't know how much of it was in Spanish and whether it crossed over to the English side. But that remark comes back regularly, in interviews, in the social media etc. Most recently a few days before the Nathan story, maybe triggered by the start of the Olympics? I suspect it will be dug up every now and then for the rest of his life.]

Good grief. I think if I were a skater I wouldn’t give interviews.

 

[icetug]

I don't know if you remember the scene from Jane Austen's "Emma", when Emma offends Miss Bates during a picnic. Mr. Knightley, who loves Emma with all his heart, could disregard this incident by excusing Emma in various ways: it was hot so everyone was irritated, moments before Emma was insulted by the pastor's wife, it was Frank who caused this whole unpleasant situation with his idea of a party game, Miss Bates is talkative and thoughtless indeed, and Emma is a sweet, kind girl, and she didn't mean anything wrong by it. However, Mr. Knightley goes to Emma and tells her, "Badly done, Emma." You are the role model in this social circle, you will be followed by everyone, so how could you offend someone who is the weakest here and in a highly vulnerable situation. Scolding brings effect: Emma apologizes to Miss Bates and is careful about her behavior towards Miss Bates in the future. (If anyone wants to watch this scene in the movie, here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTDaV_Mnq7I).

Nathan was answering the question: “Is that a thing that happens all the time, where people just go, well, why don't you play hockey, simply because of the connotation ice skating is feminine and the patriarchy said that hockey, because you' re hitting each other, is masculine? Is that something that comes up?"
He could answer that question in a hundred different ways: “Look at me, do I look like a hockey player? With my body, I would never be able to become a famous hockey player, but for figure skating I have the perfect conditions”. Or: "People in the USA prefer to watch women skaters, but I try my best to change that attitude and make them prefer to watch men on ice." Or: "Nowadays, young girls are jumping quads, so feminine doesn't mean just pretty and subtle, but strong and athletic."
Instead, in his response, Nathan repeated the stereotype of skating as "a fairly homosexual-dominated sport, or LGBTQ-dominated sport."

Nathan is a three-time world champion, an absolute icon of figure skating not only in the USA, a role model for hundreds of young skaters. Therefore, his role is also to be an ambassador for figure skating, and his words should break stereotypes, not duplicate them, he should say what figure skating nowadays is, not what people imagine on a basis on what their grandparents watched fifty years ago.
Nathan's fans defend him in many ways: that the question was a trap, and that the journalists were unprepared, and that someone unnecessarily blew it up, and that only haters can see anything wrong in his words, and that Nathan is a good and kind person and he meant nothing wrong.
Fortunately, Nathan has a Mr. Knightley next to him who said, "Badly done, Nathan." Fortunately, because this interview was discussed only in virtual space and only by FS fans. Imagine what it would have happened if it had gone mainstream, especially if it had happened just before the Olympics. The case of Javi before Sochi shows how dangerous this would be for Nathan.

Journalists are often unprepared and use stereotypes. You have to explain to them - and people outside the FS society - the basics over and over again. Nathan has already learned his lesson, apologized for his words and will certainly be well prepared to answer questions about femininity and masculinity in sport. I'd rather scold him when he did wrong than defend him. Then, after his apology, I can say, “Well done, Nathan”.

 

[lurkz2]

Nathan was answering the question: “Is that a thing that happens all the time, where people just go, well, why don't you play hockey, simply because of the connotation ice skating is feminine and the patriarchy said that hockey, because you' re hitting each other, is masculine? Is that something that comes up?"
He could answer that question in a hundred different ways: “Look at me, do I look like a hockey player? With my body, I would never be able to become a famous hockey player, but for figure skating I have the perfect conditions”. Or: "People in the USA prefer to watch women skaters, but I try my best to change that attitude and make them prefer to watch men on ice." Or: "Nowadays, young girls are jumping quads, so feminine doesn't mean just pretty and subtle, but strong and athletic."
Instead, in his response, Nathan repeated the stereotype of skating as "a fairly homosexual-dominated sport, or LGBTQ-dominated sport."

You seem to suggest three ways Nathan could have answered the question “Is that a thing that happens all the time, where people just go, well, why don't you play hockey, simply because of the connotation ice skating is feminine and the patriarchy said that hockey, because you' re hitting each other, is masculine? Is that something that comes up?."

Well Nathan actually mentioned the first two. He had already mentioned in another part of the interview that his slight build was perfect for figure skating. I don't think your third suggestion that he mention that girls also jump quads is responsive to the question, which was asking about his personal experience as a figure skater.

Nathan actually took the second approach you suggested, as @shine mentioned Nathan said that concept of ice skating was messed up and IIRC he followed that up by saying some of his friends were doing programs that would appeal to other tastes such as hiphop.

The full quote where he said “females” is as follows:
“I think that there is that connotation and there is that "Well we don't really wanna watch guys skate around," and [unintelligible] we'd rather watch hockey or... we'd rather watch females do that, which I think is... pretty messed up in itself...”

The stereotype of skating as "a fairly homosexual-dominated sport, or LGBTQ-dominated sport" was simply a preface to his answer where he felt the need to highlight that he himself was straight. I think it's sad that he felt the need to do it but that speaks to his personal experience growing up in a sport perceived as feminine, which was what they were discussing at the time.

I actually enjoyed that interview because he was pretty candid and I don't think he had any malicious intent. That being said, I could see where he felt the need to apologize for coming up short in his role as an ambassador for the sport and for the awkward phrasing.

 

[oatmella]

Saying “I am not offended” or “what he said isn’t untrue” doesn’t automatically equate to defending Nathan though. It’s just a personal view on the topic being brought up rather than judging Nathan. I really appreciate people brought their own stories in this discussion. As a fan of Nathan’s it’s comforting to know that so far no one in this thread seems really offended by his wording.

I found what Nathan said to be upsetting and disappointing. Nathan himself said:

“But instead of saying something meaningful, I blurted out statements that aren’t even true, used language that’s harmful to the LGBTQIA+ community and to women and minorities …”

He clearly expresses that what he said isn’t true, and that he used offensive language. I don’t feel it’s that relevant if some don’t find what he said offensive - his apology wasn’t for that group of people. Arguing that what he said “isn’t untrue” when he clearly said the opposite, seems pointless. Attempting to infer the true meaning of his interview answer also seems pointless - he knows better than any fan about what he intended to say, and he apologized for what he said.

There has been a lot of “defending Nathan”, meaning defending what he said in the interview - which is how this thread got started.

Also to clear up a few things - the interviewers were comedians and not journalists. He was not asked if he is straight - he brought it up himself.

 

[oatmella]

I don't know if you remember the scene from Jane Austen's "Emma", when Emma offends Miss Bates during a picnic. Mr. Knightley, who loves Emma with all his heart, could disregard this incident by excusing Emma in various ways: it was hot so everyone was irritated, moments before Emma was insulted by the pastor's wife, it was Frank who caused this whole unpleasant situation with his idea of a party game, Miss Bates is talkative and thoughtless indeed, and Emma is a sweet, kind girl, and she didn't mean anything wrong by it. However, Mr. Knightley goes to Emma and tells her, "Badly done, Emma." You are the role model in this social circle, you will be followed by everyone, so how could you offend someone who is the weakest here and in a highly vulnerable situation. Scolding brings effect: Emma apologizes to Miss Bates and is careful about her behavior towards Miss Bates in the future. (If anyone wants to watch this scene in the movie, here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTDaV_Mnq7I).

Nathan was answering the question: “Is that a thing that happens all the time, where people just go, well, why don't you play hockey, simply because of the connotation ice skating is feminine and the patriarchy said that hockey, because you' re hitting each other, is masculine? Is that something that comes up?"
He could answer that question in a hundred different ways: “Look at me, do I look like a hockey player? With my body, I would never be able to become a famous hockey player, but for figure skating I have the perfect conditions”. Or: "People in the USA prefer to watch women skaters, but I try my best to change that attitude and make them prefer to watch men on ice." Or: "Nowadays, young girls are jumping quads, so feminine doesn't mean just pretty and subtle, but strong and athletic."
Instead, in his response, Nathan repeated the stereotype of skating as "a fairly homosexual-dominated sport, or LGBTQ-dominated sport."

Nathan is a three-time world champion, an absolute icon of figure skating not only in the USA, a role model for hundreds of young skaters. Therefore, his role is also to be an ambassador for figure skating, and his words should break stereotypes, not duplicate them, he should say what figure skating nowadays is, not what people imagine on a basis on what their grandparents watched fifty years ago.
Nathan's fans defend him in many ways: that the question was a trap, and that the journalists were unprepared, and that someone unnecessarily blew it up, and that only haters can see anything wrong in his words, and that Nathan is a good and kind person and he meant nothing wrong.
Fortunately, Nathan has a Mr. Knightley next to him who said, "Badly done, Nathan." Fortunately, because this interview was discussed only in virtual space and only by FS fans. Imagine what it would have happened if it had gone mainstream, especially if it had happened just before the Olympics. The case of Javi before Sochi shows how dangerous this would be for Nathan.

Journalists are often unprepared and use stereotypes. You have to explain to them - and people outside the FS society - the basics over and over again. Nathan has already learned his lesson, apologized for his words and will certainly be well prepared to answer questions about femininity and masculinity in sport. I'd rather scold him when he did wrong than defend him. Then, after his apology, I can say, “Well done, Nathan”.

His interview was not only discussed on Twitter and forums:

Figure skater Nathan Chen apologizes for homophobic remarks - Outsports

The American figure skater expressed frustration with stereotypes of being a straight skater in a ‘homosexual-dominated sport’ and then apologized.

www.outsports.com

Nathan Chen apologises for saying figure skating is a "homosexual-dominated" sport

Olympic figure skater Nathan Chen has released an apology for his saying the sport is "homosexual dominated.

www.gaytimes.co.uk

 

[kmfee]

At the end of the day, some people were hurt by his comment and some weren't. You can't tell anyone they have no right to or shouldn't be hurt, just like you can't tell anyone they should be.

Nathan has apologised, his apology was meant for those who were hurt. Wether or not they believe him and accept it, is for them to decide.

Every human being has made mistakes in their lifetime, owning up to them and showing intent to do better in the future is very commendable. Dismissing his apology and trying to ruin his career (as some people are actively doing) is taking it too far imho - nobody is perfect and everyone deserves a chance to learn if they show the intent to.

I don't want to make a comment on his original words, because I am in no place to judge. I'm merely going to say that homophobia seems like a very strong word for a bad answer.

 

[Mamamiia]

I found what Nathan said to be upsetting and disappointing. Nathan himself said:

“But instead of saying something meaningful, I blurted out statements that aren’t even true, used language that’s harmful to the LGBTQIA+ community and to women and minorities …”

He clearly expresses that what he said isn’t true, and that he used offensive language. I don’t feel it’s that relevant if some don’t find what he said offensive - his apology wasn’t for that group of people. Arguing that what he said “isn’t untrue” when he clearly said the opposite, seems pointless. Attempting to infer the true meaning of his interview answer also seems pointless - he knows better than any fan about what he intended to say, and he apologized for what he said.

There has been a lot of “defending Nathan”, meaning defending what he said in the interview - which is how this thread got started.

Also to clear up a few things - the interviewers were comedians and not journalists. He was not asked if he is straight - he brought it up himself.

I am sorry you were upset and disappointed Oatmella knowing you have supported Nathan for a long time. I am glad he apologized.

I personally don’t find him homophobic from what he said.

 

[kwanatic]

Nowadays you have to be very careful how you word things when referring to topics such as gender identity, sexual orientation, race, etc. What you want to say may not come across the way you mean it, especially when it comes to the perceptions of the people that remark may be towards. It's a bit of a minefield to be honest lol. If you aren't part of that group of people you may not be even realize what you said is offensive. In some cases it's not a person being malicious; it's just ignorance in the truest sense of the word (lack of knowledge or information).

Still, I think the thing that matters the most is if it's pointed out that what you said is offensive that you acknowledge those feelings and apologize, which Nathan did. Now he knows better moving forward. I feel like in most cases like this education is better than condemnation.

 

[SaDa]

Also to clear up a few things - the interviewers were comedians and not journalists. He was not asked if he is straight - he brought it up himself.

Well, he brought it up because it was relevant to the question of his personal experiences with a specific stereotype and why he feels it's such a "messed up" stereotype. I think it's rather unfortunate that because of certain words and phrases, this whole thing got turned into an argument over the LGBTQ community when that was never the point of Nathan's statements nor was it even the point of the question that was asked. Personally, I have no problem with what was asked. I think stereotyping and false perceptions of the sport of figure skating exists and are legitimate concerns, and I was happy to hear them being addressed. IMO, it's unfortunate that much of that got lost in all of this.

 

[el henry]

Well, he brought it up because it was relevant to the question of his personal experiences with a specific stereotype and why he feels it's such a "messed up" stereotype. I think it's rather unfortunate that because of certain words and phrases, this whole thing got turned into an argument over the LGBTQ community when that was never the point of Nathan's statements nor was it even the point of the question that was asked. Personally, I have no problem with what was asked. I think stereotyping and false perceptions of the sport of figure skating exists and are legitimate concerns, and I was happy to hear them being addressed. IMO, it's unfortunate that much of that got lost in all of this.

Nathan's phraseology, sadly, did not support the interpretation that he may have meant.

He did not say "As a sport that is perceived as gay". He did not say "As a sport that others wrongly look on as gay". He said "As a sport dominated by homosexuals/ LGBTQ". Not perceived as, not seen as, but *is*. It certainly doesn't help anything to then say that "well straight men skate too". That only feeds the stereotype.

Nathan himself later said "I said things that weren't even true", presumably referring to his statement that the sport was dominated by homosexuals. He acknowledged how difficult it is to come out as LGBTQ in skating. The correct answer, as Nathan himself acknowledged, is not "straight men skate", but so what if figure skating is seen is feminine? What's wrong with that?

I am sure Nathan did not mean the language that he used, but it is what he said. It is to his everlasting credit that he recognized what he said was not the right language and corrected the error.

 

[SaDa]

He did not say "As a sport that is perceived as gay". He did not say "As a sport that others wrongly look on as gay". He said "As a sport dominated by homosexuals/ LGBTQ". Not perceived as, not seen as, but *is*. It certainly doesn't help anything to then say that "well straight men skate too". That only feeds the stereotype.

He said it was "messed up" for people to be seeing it that way so I'm not sure how he's not making it clear that figure skating is being wrongly perceived. And, yes, he said it was a sport that was "fairly LGBTQ-dominated". While I think it was probably not the correct phrasing to use, I think he was basically just trying to say that while there are more gay people in figure skating than there are in many other sports, he doesn't think that figure skating is inherently feminine or only for gays/females. And how does saying that straight men also figure skate feed into the false perception that figure skating is for gay men and females? He's saying the opposite, isn't he?

The correct answer, as Nathan himself acknowledged, is not "straight men skate", but so what if figure skating is seen is feminine? What's wrong with that?

Isn't it just a fact that straight men skate too? What's so offensive about that? And Nathan never said that there was anything wrong with being feminine or that the sport can't be feminine. In fact, whether there's anything wrong with being feminine or not isn't the point. The idea that it's an inherently feminine sport only for gay males and females is just plain outright not an accurate perception of the sport. That's the issue here. What's wrong with correcting that to include straight males too?

 

[el henry]

He said it was "messed up" for people to be seeing it that way so I'm not sure how he's not making it clear that figure skating is being wrongly perceived. And, yes, he said it was a sport that was "fairly LGBTQ-dominated". While I think it was probably not the correct phrasing to use, I think he was basically just trying to say that while there are more gay people in figure skating than there are in many other sports, he doesn't think that figure skating is inherently feminine or only for gays/females. And how does saying that straight men also figure skate feed into the false perception that figure skating is for gay men and females? He's saying the opposite, isn't he?


Isn't it just a fact that straight men skate too? What's so offensive about that? And Nathan never said that there was anything wrong with being feminine or that the sport can't be feminine. In fact, whether there's anything wrong with being feminine or not isn't the point. The idea that it's an inherently feminine sport only for gay males and females is just plain outright not an accurate perception of the sport. That's the issue here. What's wrong with correcting that to include straight males too?

Of course men’s skating should be open to all, on that we agree. There are two, count them, two out gay men currently competing in elite senior men’s singles skating. (that I know of) Straight men already dominate the sport.

The answer to “Isn't your sport seen as feminine” is not “I’m a straight guy”. Straight guys can be feminine. The answer is, what kind of question is that and what kind of supposition is that and how can you even ask that?

But those just aren’t my ideas, Nathan said that. Nathan said his original words in his answer were poorly chosen. Nathan said his original answer to the question was not the right thing to say. I‘ve said it before, I’ll say it again, undercutting Nathan’s own words in his apology makes no sense to me. I’ll stick with what Nathan’s last words on the subject were

 

[oatmella]

We do not know what Nathan meant by “fairly LGBTQ-dominated” and it’s tiring to see all the justifications given for the words he chose. Even if there are more LGBTQ athletes participating in skating compared to other sports, that hardly makes them “dominant”. I even saw someone attempt to justify his words by stating that half of the past eight US National Men’s Champions are gay, with one more rumored to be (and I hope I don’t have to explain why outing people is wrong).

Again to reiterate, Nathan said in his apology:
“But instead of saying something meaningful I blurted out statements that aren’t even true, used language that’s harmful to the LGBTQIA+ community and to women and minorities and centered the response around myself.”

Why some of his fans continue attempting to justify his words, when he did just the opposite in his apology - I do not understand.

 

[AxelLover]

The answer to “Isn't your sport seen as feminine” is not “I’m a straight guy”. Straight guys can be feminine. The answer is, what kind of question is that and what kind of supposition is that and how can you even ask that?

I think the right answer to the question "Isn't figure skating seen as a feminine sport?" would be something like
"Yes, figure skating probably is considered to be feminine by the general public, but it shouldn't be. There are lots of skaters, some are feminine and some are not. It doesn't make sense to make any generalizations on this matter."

 

[el henry]

I think the right answer to the question "Isn't figure skating seen as a feminine sport?" would be something like
"Yes, figure skating probably is considered to be feminine by the general public, but it shouldn't be. There are lots of skaters, some are feminine and some are not. It doesn't make sense to make any generalizations on this matter."

I am afraid I disagree that we should venture into what the “general public“ “probably” thinks.

The general public where? Japan? Russia? Canada? USA?

What is “feminine”? By whose definition?

The question is silly, loaded, and indeed, cannot be answered without 1) a great deal of definitional work or 2) accepting stereotypes.

As Nathan himself has said it was best not answered in that format. And I agree with Nathan.

 

[readernick]

Given the disagreement here about what the appropriate response to this question is ( it seems like no answer would satisfy all) , and the difficulty most of us have in expressing our thoughts concisely and clearly in unprepared verbal answers, I hope everyone will try to view Nathan's answer in the most generous way possible.

That being said, he realized his comments had caused offense and took the mature, brave step of genuinely apologizing. So, no one needs to justify his answer. He, himself, chose not to do so.