Questions about selection of judging panels

[Mathman]

In ISU publication 1475 the judging panels are announced for the major ISU events for the rest of the year. The ISU chooses only the country, not the individual judges (these are named by the member federations from the list of ISU qualified judges).

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=712

The procedure for the draw is spelled out in "Rule #582" (it starts on page 119 of the following document):

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-178078-195296-111175-0-file,00.pdf

As far as I can tell the procedure is that every country that wants to be included in the draw throws their number in the hat, then a panel of 12 counties is chose at random.

So here are my questions (this came up on the JGP finals thread).

1. If all ISU member federations have an equal chance of being drawn, why do we see the same few countries being the lucky winners over and over? (For instance, at the Junior Grand Prix Finals Japan got lucky four times in a row and has a representative on the panel for each discipline).

Is it because many countries do not have any qualified judges? Because many counties choose not to submit any names?

2. Would it be better to have some kind of geographical distribution? Or rotate the counties so that the same ones don't judge every event?

 

[attyfan]

...

2. Would it be better to have some kind of geographical distribution? Or rotate the counties so that the same ones don't judge every event?

IMO, yes -- to both questions.

 

[fenway]

Yah I don't know for a fact but I'm gonna assume the number of judges from each country is related to the level of popularity in said sport. Therefore, the countries where skating is more prevalent (Russia, US, Japan, etc.) you're probably more likely to find a larger pool of skaters.

 

[Mathman]

Yah I don't know for a fact but I'm gonna assume the number of judges from each country is related to the level of popularity in said sport. Therefore, the countries where skating is more prevalent (Russia, US, Japan, etc.) you're probably more likely to find a larger pool of skaters.

But as I understand it, each country has only one number in the hat. If your country's number is drawn, then you get to send a judge.

So it seems like a small country which has only one qualified judge, and maybe no skaters at all, ought to have an equal chance of being drawn as a country that is a skating powerhouse. (?)

Or am I misunderatnding how the draw is conducted?

 

[chuckm]

Countries like BLR, GEO, AZE, ARM, LTU, EST, LAT , UZB, KAZ and UKR have very limited numbers of skaters in competitions, yet seem to get chosen a disproportionate number of times.

This year's GP and JGP
Skate America: GEO on Men, Ladies, and Dance; AZE on Pairs and Dance
Cup of China: BLR on Men's and Pairs, UZB on Dance, Pairs, and Ladies
TEB: EST on Ladies and Pairs, UZB on Ladies and Dance, ARM on Dance, UKR (Balkov) on Pairs and Dance
CoR: ARM on Men and Dance, LTU on Pairs and Dance, UKR on Pairs and Dance
NHK: UZB on Men and Ladies, GEO on Ladies and Dance, UKR on Pairs

Skate Canada was the only event where former SSRs (other than Russia) were not on the panels.


JGP ROU: UKR on Men and Dance, KAZ on Men
JGP AUT: UKR on Ladies and Dance, EST on Dance
JGP EST: BLR and UKR on Men and Pairs, EST on Pairs and Dance, LTU and KAZ on Men, LAT on Ladies
JGP BUL: UKR on Men and Dance, EST on Ladies
JGP GER: UKR on Men and Dance, BLR on Ladies, GEO on Dance
JGP GBR: LTU on Men, LAT, EST and ARM on Ladies, UKR and GEO on Dance
JGPF: GEO on Men and Dance, EST on Ladies and Pairs, UKR on Ladies, Pairs and Dance

Total Panels per SSR:
ARM: 4 GP/JGP, 2 ISU Champs
AZE: 2 GP/JGP, 2 ISU Champs
BLR: 5 GP/JGP, 3 ISU Champs
EST: 9 GP/JGP, 5 ISU Champs
GEO: 9 GP/JGP
KAZ: 2 GP/JGP
LAT: 2 GP/JGP
LTU: 4 GP/JGP, 4 ISU Champs
UKR: 19 GP/JGP, 8 ISU Champs
UZB: 7 GP/JGP, 4 ISU Champs

That's a total of 63 seats on GP and JGP judging panels, and 28 on ISU Championship panels, going to former SSRs (GPF not known yet).

I haven't counted the panel appearances of other small feds like ESP, NZL, AUS, NED, DEN, GRE, etc., but I will at some point.

 

[Mathman]

^ Chuck, I guess my question is how can we account for this. Given that the draw was fair (it was overseen by David Dore and assorted ISU officials), do you think that countries like Estonia and Belarus, although they don't field many skaters, still throw their name in the judging pot every time, while countries like New Zealand don't?

I assume that the former SSRs have plenty of judges going back to the good old days, while other countries, like the Philippeans and India, do not have any qualified judges so they can't participate in the draw.

OT -- BTW, I read in the paper this morning that Russia and Belarus are busy writing a unification constitution, so maybe next year they will not be separate countries any more. (Vladimir Putin cannot run for re-election according to the present constitution of Russia, but there is nothing to stop him from becoming president of the new united country -- which preumably will not have any of those pesky term limit rules ).

 

[chuckm]

^ Chuck, I guess my question is how can we account for this. Given that the draw was fair (it was overseen by David Dore and assorted ISU officials), do you think that countries like Estonia and Belarus, although they don't field many skaters, still throw their name in the judging pot every time, while countries like New Zealand don't?

I assume that the former SSRs have plenty of judges going back to the good old days, while other countries, like the Philippeans and India, do not have any qualified judges so they can't participate in the draw.

OT -- BTW, I read in the paper this morning that Russia and Belarus are busy writing a unification constitution, so maybe next year they will not be separate countries any more. (Vladimir Putin cannot run for re-election according to the present constitution of Russia, but there is nothing to stop him from becoming president of the new united country -- which preumably will not have any of those pesky term limit rules ).

AHA! That's why Irina Absaliamova is now judging for ARM instead of BLR. I imagine they'll farm all the other BLR judges out to other former SSRs as well. No problem there.

 

[MissIzzy]

AHA! That's why Irina Absaliamova is now judging for ARM instead of BLR. I imagine they'll farm all the other BLR judges out to other former SSRs as well. No problem there.

That's still one less slot in the draw all in all.
And can you count Lithuanian judges as judging for Russia? There's already been observations about how Georgian judges may be working for Russia, but if the Lithuanian judges were, that didn't seem to help poor Drobiazko and Vanagas much...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^ Chuck, I guess my question is how can we account for this. Given that the draw was fair (it was overseen by David Dore and assorted ISU officials), do you think that countries like Estonia and Belarus, although they don't field many skaters, still throw their name in the judging pot every time, while countries like New Zealand don't?

I assume that the former SSRs have plenty of judges going back to the good old days, while other countries, like the Philippeans and India, do not have any qualified judges so they can't participate in the draw.
.

Aside from the fairness of the system, the point of this topic is questionabe Panels. What is being questioned are the judges ethnic Russians in Estonia and Belarus as well as other former Soviet countries. (I know the skater Davdov is really Russian), Pride in Winning at all costs seems to override pride in sportsmanship

I don't think the system is wrong and what I've said is not going to go away for quite awhile.

The ISU has made it difficult with their panels to collude, but it can not take away pride. Ethnic fervor rules! One doesn't have to collude, it's ingrain.

My question about Japan judges was not about their assignments but asking how many Japanese judges there are in the same competition. True, there is only one official judge from Russia, but does that mean there isn't a Russian judge in Uzbekistan?

I don't believe there is a solution to this except the 'draws' could be on a regional basis but that proposal already made was killed by well you know who.

Joe



.

 

[Mathman]

My question about Japan judges was not about their assignments but asking how many Japanese judges there are in the same competition. True, there is only one official judge from Russia, but does that mean there isn't a Russian judge in Uzbekistan?

Oh. OK. I misunderstood your point on the other thread.

Just for fun I looked up the list of qualified judges for the United States to see if there were any Japanese or Chinese names among them. There weren't. But in a culturally diverse hodge-podge like the U.S., it seems like there could be judges with many different cultural backgraounds, and perhaps biases.

With all the Russian coaches coming to the U.S., it won't be long before some U.S. judges will be of Russian extraction. (Is Victor Petrenko a U.S. citizen?)

 

[chuckm]

Petrenko is actually a Technical Specialist. He works for the ISU, but his official 'country of origin' on the ISU listing is Ukraine, not the US.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just for fun I looked up the list of qualified judges for the United States to see if there were any Japanese or Chinese names among them. There weren't. But in a culturally diverse hodge-podge like the U.S., it seems like there could be judges with many different cultural backgraounds, and perhaps biases.

Indeed there is ethnic pride in this diverse US setting. There is no unified group on, let's say, Kwan. She is/was a very popular skater but there was also a sizeable group of Americans which were not overzealous of Kwan and they liked Cohen, Slutskaya, Lipinski. In the USSR or Russia today, I doubt that anyone was rooting for Kwan. Everyone was for Slutskaya.

With all the Russian coaches coming to the U.S., it won't be long before some U.S. judges will be of Russian extraction. (Is Victor Petrenko a U.S. citizen?)

I think Victor married an American but I do believe his heart is in the USSR or Ukraine.

The sport of figure skating is not very popular in the United States as it is in Russia or even Canada. Mothers, however do enjoy their daughters involvement in sports and skating (if they can afford it) is perfect for that. The alternative is Seasonal Recitals of the Dance Schools.

Since both countries are tied to the free market, the Russian coaches see the US as a lucrative market and with the hype of Russian winning so many skating medals, the coaches are very happy here. No need for them to get on Panels.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

Nope, Petrenko is married to the daughter of Galina Zmievskaya (Johnny Weir's coach). Galina was Viktor's coach when he won the OGM. Petrenko's wife Nina is one of Johnny's choreographers.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nope, Petrenko is married to the daughter of Galina Zmievskaya (Johnny Weir's coach). Galina was Viktor's coach when he won the OGM. Petrenko's wife Nina is one of Johnny's choreographers.

hmmm. They could become judges at some point in time as Americans. If so, would they favor Gachinski or Razzano?

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

Here is a list of all international judges - http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=662. As you can see, a country like New Zealand only has 4 singles/ pair and 1 ice dance judge. Additionally, why would New Zealand even waste the money on sending its judges to a competition if none of its skaters are competing?

Geographical distribution is a tricky thing. Politics intrudes even in such a seemingly straight forward thing as separating countries between Europeans and 4CC - while Israel is clearly not in Europe, it belongs to the Europeans. From there on, it gets even more hairy. For instance, during Cold War East Germany clearly belonged to the "Eastern block" (and the deals were made accordingly); now, all of Germany in in the Western block. Oh, and how do you account for skaters from one country training with coaches from another? For example, would a French judge look more favorably at Delobel & Schoenfelder given that they train with Zazoie?

In short, as long as ISU is federation-based system, problems will persist. They only way to correct the system at least up to a point would be to have the judges answerable only to the ISU, and getting paid by it as well. While this would still not eliminate some cultural base, it's the only way I see to the right direction.

In the USSR or Russia today, I doubt that anyone was rooting for Kwan. Everyone was for Slutskaya.

No, actually there was a large number of Russian fans rooting for Cohen. And before anyone brings up Sasha's Ukrainian background or time spent with Russian coach, I can tell you that Cohen became popular in Russia back when everyone saw her at Salt Lake City Olympics - before she switched to TT, and AFAIK before Russian media said a word about her mom being from Ukraine. Russians just responded very well to Sasha's skating - though indeed Russia never had any support for Kwan or Hughes.

OT -- BTW, I read in the paper this morning that Russia and Belarus are busy writing a unification constitution, so maybe next year they will not be separate countries any more.

That will never happen. Lukashenko is not an idiot - he well understands that what Putin really wants is for Russia to gobble up Belorussia; all the stuff with withholding oil in the last week went to that goal. Putin is not interested in a union, and Lukashenko knows it.