Shibsib spat

[TontoK]

May Alex learn from this, is my point of view. I am not defending him nor excusing him. However you won't see me throwing stones at him.

And may Maia also learn from this. About the respect and treatment SHE is due, as a sister, an athlete, a woman.

And, contrary to your final point, I'm going to be throwing stones at POS Alex all season long.

 

[chameleon]

Without getting overly personal, one of the reasons I personally react so strongly to this video is because I did NOT have a peaceful sibling relationship, in fact I no longer speak to my older sibling. It's a little offensive to suggest that the only people who would be alarmed and concerned by this video are sheltered and naive. I would be more willing to dismiss this as a "typical sibling fight" if Maia were also storming around the rink, yelling and huffing and rolling her eyes, slamming on the boards etc. For it to qualify as a fight or an argument to me implies an equal contribution from both parties, but this was extremely one sided. Aside from the outright insults and berating, it really struck me how much he does not respect or value her contributions to the team's success, even though they literally have the exact same credentials. Especially if that is their mother, it doesn't speak to a healthy family dynamic. I wish Maia the best moving forward.

 

[pearly]

Does anyone know -- is that standard practice that Live Barn is on during private sessions?

Dave attempted some sort of explanation and justification (of himself posting the video). Apparently "a fan" pointed out that the schedule at the rink had changed and the cam had stayed on, implying that normally it would be off for their regular session. Dave also wrote some nonsense on Twitter about "not making any judgements without seeing the entire video" but it's quite ambiguous and, in my opinion, an poor attempt to give meaning to leaking it in the first place.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I'm saving this thread for the next time I read someone get on their highhorse and dramatically proclaim:

"There's no room for abuse in our sport!"

Clearly there is plenty of room if you put forth a little effort to justify it.

There is much too much room for abuse in this sport. So many people rushing to downplay what happened. And the person at the boards....please don't let that be their mom, please....

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Dave attempted some sort of explanation and justification (of himself posting the video). Apparently "a fan" pointed out that the schedule at the rink had changed and the cam had stayed on, implying that normally it would be off for their regular session. Dave also wrote some nonsense on Twitter about "not making any judgements without seeing the entire video" but it's quite ambiguous and, in my opinion, an poor attempt to give meaning to leaking it in the first place.

Dave Lease is still on Twitter? He had canceled his YouTube channel so I assumed he backed off and canceled all his socials.
But Dave saying "watch the whole video" is kinda rich; during his TSL days, he frequently referenced events/happenings but didn't say what he was referring to; it was very much a "Haha, I know something y'all don't know" thing. So unless he posted the entire practice and not just these 11 minutes, I don't see how we can "not make a judgment."

 

[Adeline14]

If you and your siblings have never had arguments, that's a huge privilege. For me personally, and for others in this thread, siblings quarrelling to that level is something that was experienced and not always as harmful as it may look to an outsider. Not everyone has had the chance to be raised in a peaceful and respectful family. I am not going to pretend it was my case when it wasn't the case. It doesn't mean that I am banalizing what has happened but simply that it may look worse than it actually is, depending on their personal dynamics.

I don't think this is what people are saying. People are saying that Dave Lease is vile and crass and is looking for any single way to create drama. He thrives on it. Isn't that true ? So, mentioning how gross Dave Lease is not saying that Alex wasn't out of line. The two things can co-exist.

Well, you'd be surprised about the many people who are in a difficult relationship with a family member who would prefer it not to be made public. It can be very painful for someone who is suffering already to have their life exposed like this, adding many layers of "shame" to their already existing pain and fear. There is no way anyone can make this call other than Maia herself. Perhaps she would never make it, perhaps she would do so when she'd be ready to do so... but Dave Lease is certainly not the person who should make it, nor anyone on another site, YouTube or GS or whatever. Who knows what Alex represents for Maia outside of skating, as a brother, and perhaps as one of the ones who supported her through highs and lows ? In a familial dynamic, these moments of aggressive behaviour can quickly be erased by all the love and support that may have also been there for years. These are very complex emotions people go through all the time.

I think it's absolutely normal to be upset when watching this video. I am too. At the same time, in my opinion, it's easy and dangerous to judge anyone on ten minutes of their lives. I am pretty sure that many of us have had moments of that nature that we are glad were not shared publicly. I admire those who can keep their temper at all times.

May Alex learn from this, is my point of view. I am not defending him nor excusing him. However you won't see me throwing stones at him.

Thank you for taking the time to write this thoughtful and long message, I appreciate that.

As for our opinions I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree, but I do respect your opinion.

Agree with you on Dave Lease, I found his comments about the airplane crash victims unforgivable. And himls motives for posting this clip may very well be selfish and not carried by a genuine wish to support Maia.
Still I believe that this type of behaviour must get out in public, in order to be addressed. There is nothing shameful in being the victim of emotional violence, just shame in perpetrating it.

 

[Isk]

I've self-reflected as to why this has affected me so deeply.

And I think I understand why. I treasure my sister. I always have. We're only a year apart - missed being "Irish Twins" by only a week. When no one else in the world has stood by me, she has. And vice versa. I think I sort of assume every brother/sister has this kind of relationship - at least to some degree. Maybe I'm projecting my sister and me onto this completely different dynamic.

I can't imagine speaking to my sweet sister the way POS Alex spoke to Maia. And I think perhaps I'm emotionally connecting in this as though he spoke to MY sister that way. And my blood boils. I'm far too old to beat up the bully like I did in high school, and I don't even know these people (or particularly care about them on a personal level), but I'm furious about it.

Ultimately, it's up to Maia to determine what she's willing to tolerate from POS Alex in pursuit of her dream - if we can even be certain it IS her dream, and she hasn't been bullied into it. But my feelings are my own, and they're not changing. I view him, and I will always view him, as a pitiful excuse for a man who deserves derision in every aspect of his life. He'll always get it from me. I detest him now. I can never, ever root for him in any endeavor, and sadly that means I can't root for her either. I hope they abandon this come-back attempt, so I don't have to hear about him this season.

The amount of people here, who despite the glaring opposite evidence of the video here, maintain that
A. This is normal sibling behaviour, nothing special here, haha
B. The real perp is not the abuser, but the person who leaked the video
C. Maia is not the victim, we do not know the context ( don't need to, it's obvious)
D. The most disturbing statement that Maia actually will be HURT by this being made public, the best thing for HER would be to hush this all up

Is astounding. And sad to me.

I watched this video twice. In the beginning it was very unpleasant, but because I've seen all sorts of aggressive behaviours including from people who can't control themselves due to a disability, my second reaction, which comes from habit rather than instinct, is to try to understand, so I watched it with a cool head. Alex was clearly frustrated. This does not justify of course his channeling his frustration to the nearest person. My experience though is that it is not uncommon for people to blame their closest person(s), loved ones, when something isn't working, even when it's not their fault. He is a big guy with a loud voice, objectively she is much softer even at her loudest and she is less expressive in gestures. He was talking from the other side of the rink, and he was very agitated. Add all this together and it's not going to sound pleasant. He was talking to her not in the most pleasant or effective way, unsuccessfully, he was rude, but he was trying to communicate. There was one moment when he looked for help to the third person, but she seemed equally confused and helpless. Then he sort of resigned, but it's not clear if he was convinced. This is what I saw watching this without emotion.
That step sequence that they were working on didn't look great. It sort of looked OK, but it's not what we are used to seeing from them, and they couldn't agree on what was wrong with it. Maybe they are both wrong. I would think they need a technical coach to help them sort out the skating first of all. Perhaps they also need someone to help them with the CRM: workload and stress management, communication, cockpit gradient etc., people work with psychologists for a reason. He might need one, she might need one for a different reason, she is a cancer survivor, this is never an easy experience. I am not angry, I am concerned. I don't think it's the first time altercations happened, he said something like they've talked about it many times before, etc. He also said something like he was doing everything and she was questioning everything. Maybe he should start delegating. We don't know. And she can leave. It's much easier to distance yourself from a sibling than from a spouse or a kid, or even a parent. You don't owe them anything, don't have a common residence and finances and don't have parental responsibility to them. Maybe comeback is more than they can handle. Still, in my view it doesn't justify Dave Lease releasing this video without asking Maia, who is the perceived victim here, if it would be OK with her. And I think it's wise if LiveBarn will be closed. This is work. People get stressed, have you never cried at work? Workplaces kinda try to deal with this nowadays, not always effectively. Would you appreciate it if somebody filmed you while working, perhaps not in your best moment, and then posted it without your permission?

 

[essence_of_soy]

In 1993 when Torvill & Dean were making their Olympic comeback, a documentary team was filming their every move.

Returning to international competition, in this segment the pair had won the 1994 European Title by the smallest of margins. Knowing they would need to invest more time in sharpening their compulsory dances to stay ahead of their Russian rivals, Dean wanted everything to be perfect.

In one tense moment, they caught Christopher berating Jayne in an argument that apparently lasted about ten minutes.

To her credit, Torvill put up with as much as she could tolerate that day and left the building. (Later, when Jayne was quizzed about the incident on Australian TV, she laughed it off and said it was just one moment which was blown up by the media.)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

The biggest difference between Torvill & Dean, and the Shibutanis is that both British partners were married (not to each other), and therefore had outside sources of emotional support to lean on. To the best of my knowledge, Maia Shibutani does not. (Her body language when Alex was spraying at her seemed less intimidated than fed up with his BS.)

I have to take the fact the YouTube clip was posted by Dave Lease (who rode high on the coattails of drama when he was involved in the sport) with a hefty grain of salt.

Nevertheless if anyone spoke like that to me, no matter how much is on the line, I would tell Alex to shove his comeback.

 

[TontoK]

I suspect that general reaction would be far different had this been a Russian male ice dancer or a Chinese pair dude behaving this way towards his partner. But because a "bad person" like Dave Lease shined a light on America's favorite little brother ice dancer and shattered the goody-goody marketing image that's been so carefully crafted, POS Alex's reprehensible behavior is somehow less so. And the rationalization attempts are even worse... because the video evidence is RIGHT THERE. You can't ignore it, you can't wish it away, it will follow him everywhere. And you can't forget it, because I won't let you.

Children's book author my ass.

 

[Mathman]

Would you appreciate it if somebody filmed you while working, perhaps not in your best moment, and then posted it without your permission?

My reaction is, no, I would not appreciate being caught on tape yelling profanities at a co-worker, or at my sister. But by the same token I am pretty sure that my co-worker or sister would not appreciate being profanely yelled at.

 

[Isk]

I suspect that general reaction would be far different had this been a Russian male ice dancer or a Chinese pair dude behaving this way towards his partner. But because a "bad person" like Dave Lease shined a light on America's favorite little brother ice dancer and shattered the goody-goody marketing image that's been so carefully crafted, POS Alex's reprehensible behavior is somehow less so. And the rationalization attempts are even worse... because the video evidence is RIGHT THERE. You can't ignore it, you can't wish it away, it will follow him everywhere. And you can't forget it, because I won't let you.

Children's book author my ass.

Forgive me for pointing this out, but you are blaming him for being rude by calling him names, i.e. doing the same thing you are blaming him for. You say that the whole team, both siblings, including Maia, lost a fan in you. The question is: who are you angry with and for what? With him for shouting at her, or with them both for ruining your idea of how people, whom you like, behave? The first option means it would be logical to support her, but while they are a team, this means supporting him as well, because he is a part of her team, and that's a problem. That's why I am trying not to judge but to understand.
I didn't read their book BTW, I wasn't sure what these two young kids could teach me. It was a gut feeling based on previous experience. Kristi's book for example. Or Katia's. I borrowed both from a library. Katia's book I loved, but she later said she regretted dictating it, because people misunderstood her. Not everyone I think, but there is always someone who does.

 

[Isk]

My reaction is, no, I would not appreciate being caught on tape yelling profanities at a co-worker, or at my sister. But by the same token I am pretty sure that my co-worker or sister would not appreciate being profanely yelled at.

Me neither. I also wouldn't want anyone to post a video of me being yelled at (and swearing back). And then having to pretend this was a one in a lifetime occurrence.
Sometimes I miss those days when they put up a show for us, it appeared all to be good sportsmanship, and the worst thing someone could do was to take their silver medal off when on the podium.

 

[Mathman]

^ I learned a lot from Kristi Yamaguchi's first book, Figure Skating for Dummies (1997). That was back when I was a figure skating dummy, I still quote from it from time to time.

I also greatly enjoyed her children's books, Dream Big Little Pig and It;s a Big World Little Pig.

The Shibs children's cooks referenced here were the two "Kudo Kid's" stories (figure skating detectives+. I don;t know whether a reader is supposed to learn anything from them, but they also published two books on influential but largely unknown Asiia Americans who contributed in various ways to U.S. society.

 

[Isk]

^ I learned a lot from Kristi Yamaguchi's first book, Figure Skating for Dummies (1997. That was back when I was a figure skating dummy, I still quote from it from time to time.

I also greatly enjoyed her children's books, Dream Bog Little Pig and It;s a Big World Little Pig.

The Shibs children's cooks referenced here were the two "Kudo Kid's" stories (figure skating detectives+. I don;t know whether a reader is supposed to learn anything from them, but they also published two books on influential but largely unknown Asiia Americans who contributed in various ways to U.S. society.

Perhaps I should read them. Sounds like they are not hopeless people, just in trouble. Cancer is a whole family experience BTW. Any illness is. Perhaps I was expecting more from Kristi and less from Katia. I knew most of the stuff that Kristi wrote. But I later watched a documentary about her and Kristi Ness and Rudi, and it was revealing and informative.

 

[TontoK]

Forgive me for pointing this out, but you are blaming him for being rude by calling him names, i.e. doing the same thing you are blaming him for. You say that the whole team, both siblings, including Maia, lost a fan in you. The question is: who are you angry with and for what? With him for shouting at her, or with them both for ruining your idea of how people, whom you like, behave? The first option means it would be logical to support her, but while they are a team, this means supporting him as well, because he is a part of her team, and that's a problem. That's why I am trying not to judge but to understand.
I didn't read their book BTW, I wasn't sure what these two young kids could teach me. It was a gut feeling based on previous experience. Kristi's book for example. Or Katia's. I borrowed both from a library. Katia's book I loved, but she later said she regretted dictating it, because people misunderstood her. Not everyone I think, but there is always someone who does.

Sure, I'll see if I can explain my perspective.

Alex's behavior went beyond mere rudeness. He's a bully. Worse, he's a bully to a woman. A bully to his own sister. And don't try to sell this as a one-time outburst, because whoever that woman was (I've heard speculation that it was his mother or Marina), her lack of surprise or reaction indicates that this wasn't anything new. Her reaction seemed to signal this was commonplace. Anyway, this bullying of a woman is an issue that, for me, cuts well beyond sports. It's a prime indicator of his character, or rather his lack of it. An adult male who bullies women is not a man as I define it. Such an individual is a subhuman piece of garbage who deserves no place of honor or even acceptance in society. Having seen the evidence, I can never get over it. I'll never forget it. I'll never stop calling him out for it.

I've already expressed my regret that I cannot root for her success in ice dance, because I can never support him in any endeavor. Complicated, and perhaps not fair, but there's no way to split the baby.

The children's author thing is just frustration at the efforts to portray them (mainly him) as the saccharine sweet embodiment of all that's great in the world. I don't really care about that, I've never bought a children's book in my life and I'm never going to.

 

[pandatours]

That step sequence that they were working on didn't look great. It sort of looked OK, but it's not what we are used to seeing from them, and they couldn't agree on what was wrong with it. Maybe they are both wrong. I would think they need a technical coach to help them sort out the skating first of all.

The discourse of everything else aside, my takeaway from this video is that they are very much not prepared for the season. And tempers certainly play into this. Coming back after taking time off is a challenge and adjustment. People thought it was arrogant for them to skip Champs Camp but the truth was that they were not ready. Idk what they were doing over the summer to prep but NHK is in a month. I hope Maia is able to find some support

 

[TallyT]

'Minor sports star proves to be an unpleasant person' is sad to say not a new story, in skating or elsewhere. And because sports has been elevated in importance socially and emotionally way above what (in my biased opinion) it should be, 'minor sports star proves to be an unpleasant person' always seems to be a shock, even though we don't and never have known who these minor sports stars are.

Sometimes I miss those days when they put up a show for us, it appeared all to be good sportsmanship, and the worst thing someone could do was to take their silver medal off when on the podium.

It was without a doubt just the same, just hidden behind closed doors. Whether our sense of comfort was personally worth the ignorance... that's everyone's own question to think about.

 

[Skater Boy]

I could not watch the full video; it upset me. I realize what we often are show is what people want us to see and that this was a raw moment that was probably meant to be private. And sadly this kind of behaviour probably happens more than we think but these are some of our heroes. But I think it reflects a great problem. The ShibSibs came back and it isn't easy or really working. They are panicking. We haven't seen them unlike Gullaume and Lawrence. I think they know things aren't going too well and it would be embarassing if they don't even make it out of the US let alone get silver. I honestly wish I didn't see this video and that they left with their Olympic bronze. I can't watch them now. I loved the charm of this brother and sister team but now I can't unsee what i just saw.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Ummm, soooo, what happens now? I can't see them getting suspended because Alex isn't shown hitting Maia. No, I'm not trying to downplay the severity of verbal abuse. I'm simply coming at this from how the usfsa is probably looking at it. The usfsa doesn't exactly have a good reputation. In order to promote the shib sibs, will they simply ignore it? Are fans expecting Alex to post a statement?
I have no clue what I expect or want to happen.

 

[elbkup]

I've self-reflected as to why this has affected me so deeply.

And I think I understand why. I treasure my sister. I always have. We're only a year apart - missed being "Irish Twins" by only a week. When no one else in the world has stood by me, she has. And vice versa. I think I sort of assume every brother/sister has this kind of relationship - at least to some degree. Maybe I'm projecting my sister and me onto this completely different dynamic.

I can't imagine speaking to my sweet sister the way POS Alex spoke to Maia. And I think perhaps I'm emotionally connecting in this as though he spoke to MY sister that way. And my blood boils. I'm far too old to beat up the bully like I did in high school, and I don't even know these people (or particularly care about them on a personal level), but I'm furious about it.

Ultimately, it's up to Maia to determine what she's willing to tolerate from POS Alex in pursuit of her dream - if we can even be certain it IS her dream, and she hasn't been bullied into it. But my feelings are my own, and they're not changing. I view him, and I will always view him, as a pitiful excuse for a man who deserves derision in every aspect of his life. He'll always get it from me. I detest him now. I can never, ever root for him in any endeavor, and sadly that means I can't root for her either. I hope they abandon this come-back attempt, so I don't have to hear about him this season.

Family dynamics
So subtle, convoluted, never ending; while I don’t agree with uncontrolled diatribes because they can so easily descend into physical violence, I give the Shibs the benefit of the doubt they can deal with the dynamics. The public sharing is also questionable but that damage has been done.
I have one sibling, a sister; personality wise we are total opposites; we have ridden out the highs and lows and we love each other. It took years for me to understand our relationship dynamic had much in common with our mother’s relationship with her sister (my aunt). Once understood, our differences became easier knowing we are individuals in a close family free from acting out a predetermined paradigm. Still isn’t easy but it’s better.
Also odd: a very dear and close friend for years and years recently revealed to me his troubled relationship with his mother. We had a long heartfelt talk about it and many things about him became clear.