Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[DizzyFrenchie]

Why don't you also watch Kagiyama's two footed 3A too while at it.

I've just watched Ilia Malinin's Free yet, I'll watch Yuma Kagiyama's whenever I can but from the score sheet, his 3A got a negative Grade of Execution so I suppose that any wrong landing didn't pass unperceived by the judges? I don't understand what bringing a called error by a skater in answer to a remark about an uncalled error from another skater, would do?

 

[lariko]

I've just watched Ilia Malinin's Free yet, I'll watch Yuma Kagiyama's whenever I can but from the score sheet, his 3A got a negative Grade of Execution so I suppose that any wrong landing didn't pass unperceived by the judges? I don't understand what bringing a called error by a skater in answer to a remark about an uncalled error from another skater, would do?

Because I believe this jump as well as another triple (3F) and second quad (both of which where followed by doubles) could have lacked rotation that were not called in this event, as all Kagiyama jumps are called clean. I also wonder if the doubles were fully rotated since the take offs were problematic.

His persistent difficulties with landing make me believe he doesn't have enough height, hence underotates, hence can't land.

While the GoE was slightly negative for this 3A, 2 judges graded it as +1 GoE and three more did a neutral GoE of 0, awarding a full BV for that jump with no deductions whatsoever despite the low quality visibly.

while Malinin is being hounded every time he as much as turns his head wrong, everyone repeats that Kagiyama's jumps are textbook, therefore do not require scrutiny. I have a feeling that this is not so, despite the fabulous edges and knees.

I also wonder, if all these jumps were under if Shun wouldn't have been in 2nd.

 

[yfan1]

Kagiyama's jumps are textbook, therefore do not require scrutiny.

They're not even close. I posted that Lutz in the competition thread, with the outside edge flattening out by the time he picks in.

He's gone off-axis on the 4Sal many times at this point - and I've always thought it's something about his take-off that causes that.

Many only seem to be looking at how he flows out of his jumps, and ignoring everything else.

When you're an "artist" or have "good skating skills" it doesn't at all seem like there's scrutiny being done to any part of your skating. I am far more in support of overloading quads than this bs.

 

[lariko]

They're not even close. I posted that Lutz in the competition thread, with the outside edge flattening out by the time he picks in.

He's gone off-axis on the 4Sal many times at this point - and I've always thought it's something about his take-off that causes that.

Many only seem to be looking at how he flows out of his jumps, and ignoring everything else.

When you're an "artist" or have "good skating skills" it doesn't at all seem like there's scrutiny being done to any part of your skating. I am far more in support of overloading quads than this bs.

He doesn't flow out of jumps though for 4T and 3F -- if he did great flow, triple should be no problem according to my understanding of jump mechanics, which I admit is low. From what i gather, great landing means good speed on exit and an effortless triple on this level of skating. The extent of my knowledge is limited to Mozalev, who specifically can have very beautiful textbook 4S and 4T, but only if he gains enough height. Which he has troubles with. If he doesn't, he URs and falls. Yuma's knees are softer, so sometimes he doesn't fall, but I think it might also be the same problem so he maybe very well q or even UR. He definetly didn'thave any flow on 3A. Is the narative that he landed it fully rotated, then tripped somehow? How can he be a great textbook jumper and do that all the time? Something must be not right.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Because I believe this jump as well as another triple and second quad (both of which where followed by doubles) could have lacked rotation that were not called in this event, as all Kagiyama jumps are called clean. I also wonder if the doubles were fully rotated since the take offs were problematic.

His persistent difficulties with landing make me believe he doesn't have enough height, hence underotates, hence can't land.

While the GoE was slightly negative for this 3A, 2 judges graded it as +1 GoE and three more did a neutral GoE of 0, awarding a full BV for that jump with no deductions whatsoever despite the low quality visibly.

while Malinin is being hounded every time he as much as turns his head wrong, everyone repeats that Kagiyama's jumps are textbook, therefore do not require scrutiny. I have a feeling that this is not so, despite the fabulous edges and knees.

I don't know why you're telling this me, I very well know that his jump technique is often faulty and uncalled, let's not forget some of his take-offs, while Ilia Malinin's take-offs are usually good or very good; Ilia Malinin's Axel jumps are skid, not edge, which in my opinion bars from the good take-off bullet, but they're the less prerotated skid 3As (and of course 4As; Yuzuru Hanyu's Axels being edge, and the poor attempts by Artur Dmitriev Jr being prerotated to a downgrade) I've ever seen? Ah and as we're on Ilia Malinin's jump technique and if you want compliments on him, his Euler was a real one but I've already written it, this one very short and somehow in the rhythm and its shape fit to the music, it was a brief moment of beauty in this program. But it's out of topic.
If you please, I'll wait to answer you on Yuma Kagiyama's Free 3A until I've seen it! In particular, to see if it's a real two-foot landing or rather a step-out looking like a two-foot, which I think is more frequent.

 

[lariko]

I don't know why you're telling this me, I very well know that his jump technique is often faulty and uncalled, let's not forget some of his take-offs, while Ilia Malinin's take-offs are usually good or very good; Ilia Malinin's Axel jumps are skid, not edge, which in my opinion bars from the good take-off bullet, but they're the less prerotated skid 3As (and of course 4As; Yuzuru Hanyu's Axels being edge, and the poor attempts by Artur Dmitriev Jr being prerotated to a downgrade) I've ever seen? Ah and as we're on Ilia Malinin's jump technique and if you want compliments on him, his Euler was a real one but I've already written it, this one very short and somehow in the rhythm and its shape fit to the music, it was a brief moment of beauty in this program. But it's out of topic.
If you please, I'll wait to answer you on Yuma Kagiyama's Free 3A until I've seen it! In particular, to see if it's a real two-foot landing or rather a step-out looking like a two-foot, which I think is more frequent.

I told you that because you asked. I get it that it's all about Hanyu for you, so if you don't feel like watching Kagiyama, by all means, don't watch Kagiyama.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I told you that because you asked. I get it that it's all about Hanyu for you, so if you don't feel like watching Kagiyama, by all means, don't watch Kagiyama.

I've just haven't have the possibility yet, to watch most skates of the Final? And I've watched no Junior, Short or Long Programs, nobody from Zagreb, and so on. It's true that today Yuzuru Hanyu's birthday is my first priority online.

 

[Mathman]

Lookee, the ISU themselves - or their PR people, who presumably got permission - just called someone 'the one and only GOAT' on their x account. And you can guess who I mean, it's me and came up as a repost on my rather narrow feed.

https://x.com/ISU_Figure/status/1997513363258237261

I don't think that this X account has anything to do with the ISU. I don't think that the ISU is in the business of wishing happy birthday to the one and only GOAT. As far as I can tell, this account joined in 2012 and is known for posts like "Amazing! Fantastic! The flags are out and the pooh bears are in for the one and only Yuzuru Hanyu. Hanyu takes the lead with two skaters to go.., ."

..., what I am saying is that [Hanyu is] known for his balance of athletics and artistry and if the ISU are finally going to recognise, at least in public, that balance is a good thing....

The ISU has always beaten the "balance is a good thing" drum. Under IJS it is the very foundation of the "balanced program" rules -- the rules that prescribe so many jumps, so many spins, so much of this and so much of that.

Before that, for decades under 6.0 scoring the judges gave two equally weighted marks, the technical mark and the "artistic" mark, which together, in balance, determined the winner.

The question on this thread is whether the ISU needs to do a little tweaking and rebalancing, or whether the current de facto balance is working out OK and should be left alone.

 

[Mathman]

Mmgh, Sato and Grassl also lost to Kagiyama who only had 3 quads and doubled two of his triples.... What kind of a warped logic is that it's okay for Sato or Grassl to lose to Kagiyama but not okay to lose to Malinin?

I do not understand what point is being made here. If we are talking about the LP, Malinin skated great and deserved to beat them all -- and he did. Kagiyuma made mistakes while Sato and Grassl skated well. Sato and Grassl deserved to place ahead of Kagiyama, but behind Malinin. That's just what happened. What's the beef?

The short program was a different story. Malinin made mistakes and, although he attempted a quad Axel, it was not successful. He finished behind Kagiyama and Sato who both skated well. Now add up the scores of the two segments to get the overall placements. I do not see anything to feel aggrieved about.

 

[yfan1]

I don't think that this X account has anything to do with the ISU.

It's the official twitter account.

The official instagram has the same: https://www.instagram.com/isufigureskating/p/DR8pKqCE56S/

 

[freedomlover]

There is nothing sophisticated about most of Nathan Chen's jump landings, and presenting a landing is not merely about some big "flourish". It's about posture and intent and expression. Michelle Kwan rarely did anything flashy on a landing but notice how her head was constantly UP, eyes INVOLVED, shoulders OPEN, arms ELONGATED, body position ENGAGED, hands FLUID AND POINTED. These are some of the components of presentation that you don't seem to understand.

Almost every jump Nathan did, including later in his career, there is no change in facial expression afterward, almost no change in body tension or form, no creation of a purposeful shape or moment, rarely a held edge.


"Technically harder" says nothing about presentation. Throughout your entire post you've said zero about the actual artistic quality of Chen. How does his form express something? How does it interpret the music?

He did not at all give a superior performance. His arms are blocky, his body is never elongated, there isn't tension. Lack of facial expression, lack of intent with the music. It's clear from the very first skidding movement 2 seconds into the program, where he tries to raise one arm and hold the other on his hip: the free arm doesn't fully extend and hold the position, his other shoulder is hunched, with the hand lazily drooping in front of him with no engagement of the fingers, no clear shape being created. It's painfully obvious that this is how the choreographer told him to try and hold his arms, but he doesn't actually care much or understand the intent of why he should move that way, he's just going through the motions. He isn't trying to reveal his soul or create something distinct or present to the audience, he isn't doing these movements because the music is alive inside of him and making him feel this is how he should move.

Dozens of examples like that throughout the program. Like a couple seconds afterward where the choreographer told him to put his hand behind his head and then stroke the side of his face. There's no release of the head, no sense of freedom to the hand movement, no sensuality. Throughout the choreo almost any time he tries to hold his arms up, there's not much fluidity and he's stiffly bent at the elbow. And when tries to do a big flourish of the arms after the 3A it's just rushed, with those droopy arms staying closed at the shoulder, the hands not extending. Then after the jump combo when he does finally decide to show facial expression, it has little to do with the music, nor does the wild knee slide afterward. The wistfulness of the music is ignored in favor of superficial flash.


There were far more than hip thrusts to Plushenko's program (the program doesn't even HAVE a typical "hip thrust"), although that's certainly a form of movement requiring commitment and charisma, and he is indeed able to pull it off, showcasing performance quality. In this program specifically, the way he uses his hips and entire body and face after the 3Axel combo is a very good showcase of dance quality and a better involvement of the body parts than anything Nathan Chen has shown himself capable of.

What really showcases Plushenko as the superior dancer is the fluidity of the arms, the movement through the shoulders, the extension all the way through the hands, the way he is using every finger purposefully. Look at how he is holding his hands at the end of the first spin, the fingers stretched out AND pointing in different positions, creating a distinct shape, and the way there is both tension and softness at the wrists. Then look at his arms and hands partway through the step sequence when he comes to a halt, how the fingers are now purposefully held together to create a distinct shape, the softness and controlled rhythm of the undulating arms, the way he looks up and directly engages with the crowd after first looking down and sideways. There is an idea and substantiative emotion being conveyed, exactly in according to what the music is doing. It's running through him and he is performing it, interpreting it. He is in the moment.

His facial engagement and projection and attention to the music throughout, the uprightness of his back, the way he holds his head, the usage of arms and hands, rhythm, the purposeful creation of shapes and emotion, the transitions between body positions - Plushenko is better at all of these things.


Indeed, you are not qualified to judge artistry based on your posts.

This made me sit down and watch a Plushenko short. I had known him more for his escapades as a coach but man! The thing about arms and posture on his landings- elongated, and the sense of balance. Getting back to performing as soon as his blade touches the ice again. The flow out of the jumps (Watched 2001 NHK I think).... I see why you are so nitpicky (not in a bad way) about posture now. It makes a huge difference in how you pereceive the program

 

[Mathman]

It's the official twitter account.

Really? You're telling me that this is not a Hanyu fan account?

Oh, my.

https://x.com/ISU_Figure

 

[freedomlover]

He doesn't flow out of jumps though for 4T and 3F -- if he did great flow, triple should be no problem according to my understanding of jump mechanics, which I admit is low. From what i gather, great landing means good speed on exit and an effortless triple on this level of skating. The extent of my knowledge is limited to Mozalev, who specifically can have very beautiful textbook 4S and 4T, but only if he gains enough height. Which he has troubles with. If he doesn't, he URs and falls. Yuma's knees are softer, so sometimes he doesn't fall, but I think it might also be the same problem so he maybe very well q or even UR. He definetly didn'thave any flow on 3A. Is the narative that he landed it fully rotated, then tripped somehow? How can he be a great textbook jumper and do that all the time? Something must be not right.

I don't think you need to tell DizzyFrenchie about the issues with Yuma's jumps sometimes. I think a lot of discussions were held regarding the GOEs he gets sometimes (while when solid, his 4S is solid, the axis is just... horrible). While I am also in the camp that Ilias programs can be quite empty at times, I will acknowledge that he does have the best 4Lz, 4F and Loop in the game right now. Never have to worry about edges and excessive prerotation with him. Him doing skid takeoffs might be why I find his Axels to be wonky sometimes, nonetheless, again. Indeed the best jumper out there. And when he does bring out the livelyness, the skates are entertaining. Ilia for me is just someone who has taken the current rules to their absolute Limit (and if he wins like that, fine.)
He could take out two quads and have to worry less about possible qs and underrotations overall- and we would get a more balanced program for him. He has the stamina for that, if he wanted to. A 5-quad program could score 225+ as well, if composition etc. are improved.

My issue with this entire thing is the fact that you either judge everyone according to the same standard, that being one of the two
1) Lots of good (! highlight on the good) quads, good landing, good edges, flow in and out of the jumps, but less transitions= high PCS
2) Less quads (still of good quality), but a more artistic and complete program = high PCS

My example for this would be the 2025 WC, where I personally believe that what Ilia delivered, if judged to the 2nd standard that more people would like to see, did about 5-6 points more in SS,PR,Composition than Mikhail Shaidorov, who got 82 in PCS. Ilia got 91.
Yuma, with falls and obvious mistakes, got 87. 5 points higher than a clean quadster. Shouldn't this new set of rules be standardised across all skaters competiting ?

When you have obvious PCS caps for those who deliver the technical AND improve in the artistic because they would come out ahead of artistes who don't deliver... That is where I disagree. Judge how ever you want, but if the system is not consistent, that is what we have a gripe with.

Does Ilia have off days when he does't fully rotate his jumps? Yes! And then they should get calls like everyone else, not a glossing over because quads are so hard anyway. But really, my issue is not with him. I would like him to win the Gold very much and see how the Sport develops from there. What will also be interesting to see is how long he can maintain his physical peak. The current US skaters after him don't seem to have the mix of exceptional athleticism paired with passable skating skills and very good presentation (say about his costumes what you will, at least we are getting backflips with sparkly costumes and Gen Z snark now). And when Ilia retires, you will soon see the pendulum swing in the other direction, with big federation artistes winning events unless they are beaten in a technical margin again.

To conclude: Limiting quad jumps isn't the issue, Limiting bullshit judging is.
When Skaters like Vasilievs, Tomono and cohort don't get the cushy PCS margin a Jason Brown or Kevin Aymoz gets even with mistakes, that's where the issue is. Either you reward one type of skating equally or penalise it. If Shaidorov was French, he would be seeing other scores. And that's the issue with figure skating in general.

Sincerly, someone who starting keeping up with this mess because of Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

[yfan1]

Best 4Lz is Jin's, lol. The only skater right now who's jumping quite that big. He did it in 2024, so only around a year ago.

Best 4T is either him or Aymoz as well, unless there's someone I'm forgetting. Shaidorov does an extremely difficult transition into it though.

 

[freedomlover]

Best 4Lz is Jin's, lol. The only skater right now who's jumping quite that big. He did it in 2024, so only around a year ago.

I would have said Boyang Jin too, but I hadn't seen him do it in both competitions I saw him this year. Glorious outside edge. But on Consistency, Ilia takes it.
Or else I would have given the shout out to Mikhail Kolyada too, lmao. Thought this thread was more about this generation's top skaters.

 

[yfan1]

Well Jin was pretty much the poster boy of this discussion to begin, so it's fine, especially seeing how he's still competing. Malinin's is consistent no doubt, but the reason Jin (and Kolyada) were inconsistent *was* because that jump is ginormous. I believe Jin's stats on it especially were around 80 cm high and more than 3.5 m across.

I don't believe that kind of technique is credited well in the system at all. It really should be that exceptional height and distance get twice the credit - especially seeing how they're so hard to control, that there's a glitch on the landing quite a lot of the time.

 

[freedomlover]

Well Jin was pretty much the poster boy of this discussion to begin, so it's fine, especially seeing how he's still competing. Malinin's is consistent no doubt, but the reason Jin (and Kolyada) were inconsistent *was* because that jump is ginormous. I believe Jin's stats on it especially were around 80 cm high and more than 3.5 m across.

I don't believe that kind of technique is credited well in the system at all. It really should be that exceptional height and distance get twice the credit - especially seeing how they're so hard to control, that there's a glitch on the landing quite a lot of the time.

Ooooooo, interesting take. I mean, those where the things that should have gotten highlighted with the +5 -5 GOE system- height and distance are quantifyable as well- but then, if we held everyone's lutz to the standard of those two, not many would be getting +2 or +3s even. I have to agree that the way the system is set up now, there is no space for rewarding exceptional jumps any more than possible.

Italian commentators raving about his Quad Lutz is still one of my favourite Olympic Moments. And when we come to that, we should be talking about the PC Olympic Podium too but hey... beating a dead horse here.

 

[yfan1]

Actually on that note...

Congrats to Ilia for getting his seven quad LP ratified, but imagine him attempting to jump 4Lz like Jin and Kolyada used to. And 4Lo and 4S like Hanyu used to. And 3A like Yan Han. And 4T like any of those four skaters... I don't think he'd be anywhere near being able to do seven quads, if he attempted to jump like that.

I think this needs to be addressed within the system, too, but it likely won't.

 

[yfan1]

Ooooooo, interesting take. I mean, those where the things that should have gotten highlighted with the +5 -5 GOE system- height and distance are quantifyable as well- but then, if we held everyone's lutz to the standard of those two, not many would be getting +2 or +3s even. I have to agree that the way the system is set up now, there is no space for rewarding exceptional jumps any more than possible.

In essence, with the system set up like this, you will be rewarding consistency on quads, more than quality. You give equal credit to a Malinin 4Lz and a Jin/Kolyada 4Lz for height+distance - and then Jin and Kolyada are more likely to make errors on them. Well, of course Malinin will surge ahead- and he'll have more stamina going forward for the rest of the program, too.

 

[freedomlover]

Best 4Lz is Jin's, lol. The only skater right now who's jumping quite that big. He did it in 2024, so only around a year ago.

Best 4T is either him or Aymoz as well, unless there's someone I'm forgetting. Shaidorov does an extremely difficult transition into it though.

might have to go check. I do like Mishas a lot. Wouldn't have expected the Aymoz shout out. He is unfortunately in the messy Jumper category for me- highly likely that I am not watching him in his peak competitive era, so feel free to direct me to some of his best elements in programs.