Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[freedomlover]

In essence, with the system set up like this, you will be rewarding consistency on quads, more than quality. You give equal credit to a Malinin 4Lz and a Jin/Kolyada 4Lz for height+distance - and then Jin and Kolyada are more likely to make errors on them. Well, of course Malinin will surge ahead- and he'll have more stamina going forward for the rest of the program, too.

Mhm, but then you'd also have to acknowledge that (don't hold me down on this) they didn't have the variety of Jumps, then? Looking at the past quad, for example

Hanyu had the Loop, Lutz, Toeloop, and Salchow
Chen had the Flip on top of that and was able to gain a competitive edge because of that (whether I agree or not is another thing.) I concede that in theory, it should be quality of quantity- but as other commentators highlighted earlier- if the Image that is being pushed for Men's Skating is quad quad quad, that will be the guy who wins. I mean that's the gripe people have with Daniel Grassl since like, forever. The GOE he gets for the jumps he produces is ridiculous.

Technically, in the top field that is competing, Ilia has the best Lutz out of all men competing. I would put everyone of the 2015-2018 quad squad ahead of him, and we do not know how things would look if Nathan was still competing, but alas.

 

[Magill]

Really? You're telling me that this is not a Hanyu fan account?

Oh, my.

https://x.com/ISU_Figure

This is the official ISU account 100% sure. Why surprised? I think it is awesome. Seems that - maybe, just maybe - they've been reading this thread here on GS and got finally inspired to do something to honour him and show respect
Honestly, I think it is pretty normal and expected for any sport organisation to pay tribute by celebrating birthday of their GOAT. It was their silence about him having been voted by the worlds sport press 6th best male athlete of the last 100 years across all sports, winter and summer, which was much more surprising and difficult to understand, really.

 

[freedomlover]

Actually on that note...

Congrats to Ilia for getting his seven quad LP ratified, but imagine him attempting to jump 4Lz like Jin and Kolyada used to. And 4Lo and 4S like Hanyu used to. And 3A like Yan Han. And 4T like any of those four skaters... I don't think he'd be anywhere near being able to do seven quads, if he attempted to jump like that.

I think this needs to be addressed within the system, too, but it likely won't.

I laughed just reading this, to be honest. If he tried that, his success rate would be much lower. He has a glorious Flip though, and I really like his euler.

 

[freedomlover]

This is the official ISU account 100% sure. Why surprised? I think it is awesome. Seems that - maybe, just maybe - they've been reading this thread here on GS and got finally inspired to do something to honour him and show respect
Honestly, I think it is pretty normal and expected for any sport organisation to pay tribute by celebrating birthday of their GOAT. It was their silence about him having been voted by the worlds sport press 6th best male athlete of the last 100 years across all sports, winter and summer, which was much more surprising and difficult to understand, really.

Oh I remember that. But well...the JSF staying silent too is what I have a bigger gripe with. Not the purpose of this thread though.

 

[freedomlover]

Hmm... since now I do think we are evolving into the quality vs quantity discussion, we could alsoo circle back to the GOE aspect in all of this- since that can help boost or kill a score by like 20 points- a huge swing. For me, GOE scoring across this quad has been more egregious than PCS scoring. Panels using the q copout for jumps that are under too- in both singles categories is where I think the focus should be on.

 

[gsk8]

@Magill and @DizzyFrenchie everyone knows that Yuzuru Hanyu is a legend in his own right. But why must you consistently derail and make every new thread/topic about him?

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I would have said Boyang Jin too, but I hadn't seen him do it in both competitions I saw him this year. Glorious outside edge. But on Consistency, Ilia takes it.
Or else I would have given the shout out to Mikhail Kolyada too, lmao. Thought this thread was more about this generation's top skaters.

Boyang Jin seems to be injured? So let's wait and hope that his glorious 4Lz comes back, but it's true that it deserves being included.
Now, if we start including skaters who aren't competing anymore, we're going to come back to "the unavoidable"...

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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https://x.com/mikekurocha/status/1994912418942914899

Edit: sorry @gsk8, I hadn't had your post before posting mine. So I'll just add that albeit out of competition, his last visible 4Lz is from last March and we have a rather anime-like footage (camera-wise) and hoping for a more traditional take when he can sort out the copyright. It's in Bow & Arrow, both the Musical Video version (which reached 31 Million views just for his 31st birthday) and the Short Program version.

 

[yfan1]

Mhm, but then you'd also have to acknowledge that (don't hold me down on this) they didn't have the variety of Jumps, then? Looking at the past quad, for example

They didn't and that's the way it should be. Or at least, if Malinin *does* manage 7 quads - they need to be marked lower. Which is another way of addressing this thread's topic - there wouldn't be a 30 point gap if, say, his 4F were given +3, 4A +2, 4Lz +2 - so on.

 

[freedomlover]

@Magill and @DizzyFrenchie everyone knows that Yuzuru Hanyu is a legend in his own right. But why must you consistently derail and make every new thread/topic about him?

Ngl, he is the silent elephant in the room - him still getting mentions in ISU commentary or being held up as an example by other skaters or media (in case for Japanese Men's skaters) still makes him a relevant point of discussion. Especially when talking about technique and being part of the few skaters who broke 330.

 

[freedomlover]

They didn't and that's the way it should be. Or at least, if Malinin *does* manage 7 quads - they need to be marked lower. Which is another way of addressing this thread's topic - there wouldn't be a 30 point gap if, say, his 4F were given +3, 4A +2, 4Lz +2 - so on.

Then you and me agree on the GOE aspect of this. Nice to see in a thread that I have seen so far was full of snarks at people's favourite skaters. lmao.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

As to Boyang Jin, here's the take-off of his 2018 Olympic Quadruple Lutz:

https://x.com/Henni147/status/1460622177456336898

 

[gsk8]

Ngl, he is the silent elephant in the room - him still getting mentions in ISU commentary or being held up as an example by other skaters or media (in case for Japanese Men's skaters) still makes him a relevant point of discussion. Especially when talking about technique and being part of the few skaters who broke 330.

He is certainty not the "silent" elephant in the room. There are many other skaters to discuss regarding quads and balancing artistry. This is not the place to say, "Why is his birthday being ignored."

 

[freedomlover]

As for other things that still make Yuzuru relevant. I only caught him at the very very end of his competitive career. 2021 LMEY Short thanks to German broadcasting, and then Beijing 2022. And even though he didn't win those competitions, his idea of skating made me interesting in following up and following the next generation of skaters (and while I haven't been disappointed by them, I have been by the judging at times.)

Gymnastics as a counter example is just so clear on the regarding what you can and should be expecting. 99% of the time, you see the difficulty and the execution and see why that person gets a deserved win. Ilia reminds me of Simone Biles in a way, if she were competing in artistic gymnastics, I don't think she would win all the time. On floor, beam, etc. the ones she sweeps, she is the class of the field because of her difficulty that even some men can't execute. But she wins with penalties (for example when stepping out or something). And I think that Ilia would win by 35+ margins if some of his jumps got calls or lower GOE. But he is being held up as being absolutely perfect- and let's be honest, no skater is. I mean, that makes Seimei so glorious for people to watch, no?

 

[gsk8]

Watching Malinin land his seven quads at the Final was amazing. He did what no other skater has done. But for me personally, this just makes my case that I think limiting quads in order to balance artistry is something maybe to look at. Otherwise, competitions just become a "jump fest".

For instance, how many hours of practice goes into practicing just one quad? What would happen if a portion of that practice was spent on skating skills, edges, footwork, and tweaking choreo?

I loved watching Siao Him Fa and Kagiyama's footwork at the Final!

 

[freedomlover]

He is certainty not the "silent" elephant in the room. There are many other skaters to discuss regarding quads and balancing artistry. This is not the place to say, "Why is his birthday being ignored."

Now look, Idk why talking about the fact that he still does get recognised by official channels for you is a problem. I don't care about who wishes who a nice birthday (I hope he had a good one though!) Him being the silent elephant in the room is in regards to the fact that by the general public, he is indeed still being held up as the gold standard for balancing artistry in the modern era (although I do see the Plushenko influence in his camel spin (that really stood out to me), the Mao Asada influence in his triple Axel, his motivation to get better Skating Skills Wise because of Patrick Chen. Saying that previous generations' skaters influence the current standard of skating isn't illegal on Golden Skate, or is it now?

 

[freedomlover]

Watching Malinin land his seven quads at the Final was amazing. He did what no other skater has done. But for me personally, this just makes my case that I think limiting quads in order to balance artistry is something maybe to look at. Otherwise, competitions just become a "jump fest".

For instance, how many hours of practice goes into practicing just one quad? What would happen if a portion of that practice was spent on skating skills, edges, footwork, and tweaking choreo?

I love watching Siao Him Fa and Kagiyama's footwork at the Final!

I mean, other skaters are still free to practice edges and footwork, no? If a rule like that got instated now, It would simply be an Ilia Malinin penalty- for being able to do something no other skater can do, even if not perfectly. Other skaters are free to accumulate points elsewhere in the current system- but alas, then we get to the dreaded judging that no one ones to mention.

If the system rewards something, skaters and coaching camps will look to add it do their program. Look at that spin exit almost like all the juniors do with the end of the blade. Annoying to look at if not done well, but it gets you a +.

 

[Mathman]

Honestly, I think it is pretty normal and expected for any sport organisation to pay tribute by celebrating birthday of their GOAT..

I think it is very unusual for an official sports oversight organization to engage is GOAT-crowning. That's the job of fans -- and possibly of the entertainment media.

Secondly, in terms of attracting new fans, especially younger ones, to the sport, I do not think that it is a good strategy to rely on extolling the virtues of the heroes of the past, especially when the context is, "These guys we have out there now are not nearly as good." Well, then why would anyone want to turn out for an ISI competition to watch them?

I do not expect the USFSA to embark on a camplaign of promoting Ilia Malinin in Milano by celebrating the birthday of Brian Boitano (October 22 ).

 

[freedomlover]

I think it is very unusual for an official sports oversight organization to engage is GOAT-crowning. That's the job of fans -- and possibly of the entertainment media.

Secondly, in terms of attracting new fans, especially younger ones, to the sport, I do not think that it is a good strategy to rely on extolling the virtues of the heroes of the past, especially when the context is, "These guys we have out here now are not nearly as good." Well, then why would anyone want to turn out for an ISI competition to watch them?

I do not expect the USFSA to embark on a camplaign of promoting Ilia Malinin in Milano by celebrating the birthday of Brian Boitano (October 22 .

Oh, fair enough, But then let me introduce you to the tiktok generation of skating fans who still do sad edits about Anna Sherbakova, Alexandra Trusova, and Kamila Valieva. They aren't competing at the games, but they were the biggest story of the last ones. And got hyped by the ISU a lot before the Beijing Games- if you're breaking WRs etc. That's whats going to happen.

And with all respect to what Ilia has achieved already, he still needs to conquer the Olympic Games. You can be an athletic powerhouse all you want, but if you don't medal, that's a quad of hard work for not much.

 

[gsk8]

Now look, Idk why talking about the fact that he still does get recognised by official channels for you is a problem. I don't care about who wishes who a nice birthday (I hope he had a good one though!) Him being the silent elephant in the room is in regards to the fact that by the general public, he is indeed still being held up as the gold standard for balancing artistry in the modern era (although I do see the Plushenko influence in his camel spin (that really stood out to me), the Mao Asada influence in his triple Axel, his motivation to get better Skating Skills Wise because of Patrick Chen. Saying that previous generations' skaters influence the current standard of skating isn't illegal on Golden Skate, or is it now?

You are putting words in my mouth and missing the point. The snark and sarcasm aren't doing you any favors.

 

[freedomlover]

You are putting words in my mouth and missing the point. The snark and sarcasm aren't doing you any favors.

I quote "There are many other skaters to discuss regarding quads and balancing artistry." and " But why must you consistently derail and make every new thread/topic about him?"

Were they really making every topic about him when the most mention he got before that (and I just started reading this thread today) was at the end of November in an off-hand remark about "The guy who won Sochi with two falls" and "The guy whose fans are direspectful to every other skater"?
A bit disingenuous, If I might add. It's really not that deep for me, really.
I agree that making this about his birthday isn't important, but it was more about the acknowledgement he still gets from the IOC (and ISU when they like to). You misinterpreting that statement and immediately being antagonistic is why I chose to repsond in that way, but alas- not important.

Regarding Skaters balancing the art and Sport of Figure Skating, people on here have been so nice as to go back even back to the 70s to see how the sport and its marketing have evolved since then. And looking at that development to see how we got to this point really doesn't deserve the admonishment, I think.