Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 23 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
But to not further derail the thread and go back to what the OG point of this was- I do not think we need a rule limiting quads, if the GOE and PCS get another review. And if someone willing enough actually instates that rule at the ISU, I might have to be the first ones to jump on the Ilia defender train. While his layout does limit his artistic expression, this isn't at like 2018 Zagitova Levels. If you can immerse yourself in his artistic vision, you truly get where Ilia is going with this program. "You are something, but not nothing" could be genuinely liked by Locals. It went from cringe to athletic avant-garde for me in this season. Should be winning by a lot? Yes. Are his score higher than even he (just read his interview) expected? Also yes. But don't blame the player, blame the system.
 
Watching Malinin land his seven quads at the Final was amazing. He did what no other skater has done. But for me personally, this just makes my case that I think limiting quads in order to balance artistry is something maybe to look at. Otherwise, competitions just become a "jump fest".

For instance, how many hours of practice goes into practicing just one quad? What would happen if a portion of that practice was spent on skating skills, edges, footwork, and tweaking choreo?

I loved watching Siao Him Fa and Kagiyama's footwork at the Final!
I love great footwork and great spins!

One way to encourage them is to increase the points you can earn for them. Have GOE for spins and footwork have a wider range!
 
@Magill and @DizzyFrenchie everyone knows that Yuzuru Hanyu is a legend in his own right. But why must you consistently derail and make every new thread/topic about him?
Oh, I was just answering @Mathman 's question - asked twice - whether it was the official ISU's account and expressing my own surprise at to why he repeatedly doubted it. And what a better way of proving the account was authentic that showing it s handle accompanied by the blue tick?
I was not the one who brought it up here, sorry :)
 
Watching Malinin land his seven quads at the Final was amazing. He did what no other skater has done. But for me personally, this just makes my case that I think limiting quads in order to balance artistry is something maybe to look at. Otherwise, competitions just become a "jump fest".

For instance, how many hours of practice goes into practicing just one quad? What would happen if a portion of that practice was spent on skating skills, edges, footwork, and tweaking choreo?

I loved watching Siao Him Fa and Kagiyama's footwork at the Final!
Thank you for getting us back on track. Yes, this is exactly the topic that this thread centers on.

Malinin is front and center because he is such an extreme example of "quads rule all." But more genearlly, it is all about "balance" for every skater. The weight given to quads by the current IJS -- is it disproportionate to that given to other elements (spins and footwork) as well as to "artistic" considerations as reflected in PCS and somewhat in GOEs?

This thread has presented a lot of thoughtful opinions, pro and con, both on IJS details that might be adjusted and on the broader issue of "the fight for the soul of figure skating." :laugh: I'm all in!
 
Watching Malinin land his seven quads at the Final was amazing. He did what no other skater has done. But for me personally, this just makes my case that I think limiting quads in order to balance artistry is something maybe to look at. Otherwise, competitions just become a "jump fest".

For instance, how many hours of practice goes into practicing just one quad? What would happen if a portion of that practice was spent on skating skills, edges, footwork, and tweaking choreo?

I loved watching Siao Him Fa and Kagiyama's footwork at the Final!
(First, I would like to say that probably, @freedomlover doesn't know that you're Administrator and answers you casually in the tone of this conversation, I don't see snark and sarcasm with this in mind.)

I don't know. It was a very impressive skate indeed. And if any skater, why not him, some day manages to jump these 7 Quadruple jumps well done and fully rotated, with other elements good, and gets the Technical score he was awarded at the Grand Prix Final, that is, 146.07. And, with what he exhibited in Components.
Let's start with Skating Skills. I'm quite impressed by the contrast between his ease on the setting of a jump, just before take-off, and the rest of the step. The first seem to show good skating skills which I don't see elsewhere in the program.
1) Variety of Edges, Steps, Turns, Movements and Directions. I don't see how there could be less? The Step Sequence is an element, so it's not included.
2) Clarity of Edges, Steps, Turns, Movements and Body Control. The body control is medium (very good control of the core, much less of the rest). The rest isn't good but he goes surely?
3) Balance and Glide. His balance seems very good overall, but the program doesn't have time to show it and he must save energy and balance for the jumps? His glide seems average?
4) The Flow seems better although not excellent.
5) Power and Speed. They're good, and power is also shown in his jumps.

Then Composition.
1) Multidimensional movements and use of space. While he doesn't show a critical lack of ability in this respect, there are very few moves outside of the elements, and no high difficulty is shown either. He goes surely from a jump to another, does the (usual) preceding steps as a mechanic and his crossovers, while not as ugly as "his predecessor's", are always the same. The score wouldn't be zero but still be low there.
2) Connection between and within elements. Is there anything to see? There would be a very low score.
3) Choreography reflecting musical phrase and form. I would say, it does at a very basic level, so the score would be low.
4) Pattern and Ice Coverage. I didn't observe it, it's too difficult for me with the camera changes. Sometimes Japanese TV channels have offered programs maps, as the competition was in Japan I wonder if there are some in circulation? This may not be as poor as the rest of the Composition, unless he needs to jump each Quadruple in a particular place and it wouldn't allow a good ice coverage, but I doubt it.
5) Unity. Very surprisingly, I felt an unity there. Why, it's a jump feat?

Then Presentation.
1) Expressiveness and Projection. For the little there is to express with this Composition, he does it effectually, expressing the music. How to score this then? It can't be high because expression so little is easy, yet not low either as it is done, and the whole jump feat dynamic brings a good deal of projection.
2) Variety and Contrast of Energy and of Movement. I don't know how there could be less without falling out of the rules for Elements.
3) Musical Sensitivity and Timing. It's not a complex program (if jumps can be jumped...) but he does feel this music and the program is well rhythmed overall. So, the score can be a good medium?

Honestly, except in Presentation I believe that there's so little between the Elements that except in Presentation, I don't see how to consider them average?

A jump feat of 7 Quadruple jumps is a tactic choice over higher Components, and it may be the right choice for a skater who can be impressive in jumps without being able to reach a high level in Components. Here the logic is pulled to the extreme, reaching lows unheard of at this level in deserved Components. Supposing 3.5 in Skating Skills and Composition (more on the lack of matter than of ability), and 5 in Presentation (I'm quite unable to be accurate) it would make 40 in Components, in front of other top skaters who may get 90, a loss of 50, an extreme sacrifice, for which result? Not taking Daniel Grassl because of the usual uncalled errors, the next skater would get 107 in Element scores and he's got excellent Components. "The potential Ilia Malinin" would not get the Gold.
So, I don't see a lack of balance in the IJS as it is written, between jump reward and artistry, as even the most extreme jump feat can't manage to compensate the loss in Components.
And when all or part of the jumps lack rotation as was the case here, the deserved score goes down even more.

For me, as we say in French, the idea of limiting quads per program is what we call a plaster on a wooden leg. I see no example to date of a lack of balance between jumps and skating (even without taking artistry into account, and here there was some), that would lay in the rules. It all lays in the fact that rules aren't respected by Technical Panels and Judges.
If you would allow me, and if indeed such an idea is circulating in Figure Skating circles, I would rather expect that Ilia Malinin would be into orbite for an Olympic Gold followed by retirement, but the next US skaters in line can't jump that much, and some would want to go back to the Lysacek times narrative of "artistry rather than Quads" to promote them.
 
Thank you for getting us back on track. Yes, this is exactly the topic that this thread centers on.

Malinin is front and center because he is such an extreme example of "quads rule all." But more genearlly, it is all about "balance" for every skater. The weight given to quads by the current IJS -- is it disproportionate to that given to other elements (spins and footwork) as well as to "artistic" considerations as reflected in PCS and somewhat in GOEs?

This thread has presented a lot of thoughtful opinions, pro and con, both on IJS details that might be adjusted and on the broader issue of "the fight for the soul of figure skating." :laugh: I'm all in!
Yes, it's really nice to have a broad variety of skaters, each with their styles and skates rather different. I don't mind if an occasional skater is all in jumps, this Free Skating was really spectacular, and it would animate any Final. I only object to wrong scores.
 
I don't think that this X account has anything to do with the ISU. I don't think that the ISU is in the business of wishing happy birthday to the one and only GOAT.

Well, thank you for posting that ISU link. And, yes, it is the ISU account.

Now, can a few people stop accusing the ISU of hosing Yuzu? They called him the GOAT. Thank you for shopping Kmart. Aisle 9. Happy Birthday, Yuzu. Still my favorite 3A of all time.
Actually on that note...

Congrats to Ilia for getting his seven quad LP ratified, but imagine him attempting to jump 4Lz like Kolyada used to.

I don't want to see Ilia on his ass like Kolyada was, 99% of the time. No thanks. He only landed the 4Lz twice in competition. The jump was his nemesis.





One of only two times he actually landed the jump was nice:

 
He only landed the 4Lz twice in competition.
Thanks for making my point for me.

The LP video gives a nice side shot for the jump btw and why I think he used to fall on it - you can see he straightens out (which is good), but then started leaning further out right before landing many times. I'm fairly sure this happened when he mistimed the take off. But then that's the point - it's hard to jump like that.

I did think Jin had the best overall technique on the 4Lz because of this.
 
I did think Jin had the best overall technique on the 4Lz because of this.

Personally, I like Boyang a lot. A nice guy. But his 4Lz always bugged me with his head tilted back and nose up in the air, i always found it incredibly distracting. But the judges liked it and that's what counts in competition.
 
I was not the one who brought it up here, sorry :)
I am so conflicted. Just when I wanted to get on with the serious figure skating discussion, it occurred to me that maybe not everyone knows this: Michelle Kwan's birthday is July 7.

Get it? 7-7, the luckiest date on the Chinese lunar calendar (Cowherd and Weaver Girl day).
 
But his 4Lz always bugged me with his head tilted back and nose up in the air,
Well, luckily, judges don't score on what bugs them. Or aren't supposed to anyway.

In a rink, this won't at all be visible if you watch a jump, because a jump lasts a split second (unless someone's actively gazing at the head, because they've been told to do so). It's far more visible on video. The things like height, distance, speed in/out are the qualities that people see first.

It's also not really "technique" in the sense we are speaking about - air and rotational positions are different for different people, and people position their arms and neck and head in different ways. Jin's legs and feet and arms are tight, and his axis was stable. Those are the things that are of importance for a jump.
 
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Personally, I like Boyang a lot. A nice guy. But his 4Lz always bugged me with his head tilted back and nose up in the air, i always found it incredibly distracting. But the judges liked it and that's what counts in competition.
I think the judges were looking at his feet, not his nose. :nod:

As for Kolyda. that famous 4Lz that is always used as the template for Lutz technique and praised to heaven actually got 0 GOE. (It was in the short program and had no connecting footwork steps preceding.)
 
As for Kolyda. that famous 4Lz that is always used as the template for Lutz technique and praised to heaven actually got 0 GOE. (It was in the short program and had no connecting footwork steps preceding.)
The actual jump in that video *is* exceptional - but to continue the theme of Mark Hanretty's commentary being lol, I believe it was he who was going "+3 for me" on that jump for BESP when this happened :laugh:
 
The ISU has always beaten the "balance is a good thing" drum.
Not really - or at the most they have bought a tiny toy drum and pretended to beat it when people are looking, but the last few years have shown the judges chasing quads (especially quads from the right feds, though one of the right feds then turned onto a wrong fed) and they wouldn't be doing it quite so relentlessly without officialdom's approval. I mean people here and elsewhere has been in uproar over the ID scoring and talking about the way it's been crooked for years, but the singles ain't that that much - if any - less crooked. (My point got a bit drowned there)

It's the official twitter account.

The official instagram has the same: https://www.instagram.com/isufigureskating/p/DR8pKqCE56S/
And it's linked from the ISU's official website.
 
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I think it is very unusual for an official sports oversight organization to engage is GOAT-crowning. That's the job of fans -- and possibly of the entertainment media.

Secondly, in terms of attracting new fans, especially younger ones, to the sport, I do not think that it is a good strategy to rely on extolling the virtues of the heroes of the past, especially when the context is, "These guys we have out there now are not nearly as good." Well, then why would anyone want to turn out for an ISI competition to watch them?

I do not expect the USFSA to embark on a camplaign of promoting Ilia Malinin in Milano by celebrating the birthday of Brian Boitano (October 22 ;) ).
I don't think that they're posting often about him. It's just that their occasional posts about him are more likely to get many views, so X/Twitter shows them up in the file, somehow drowning most of the rest... not all though.
 
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