Should skaters receive "clean program" bonuses?

[yyzskater]

I think that this would be a good way to treat jumps, and it would provide a way to acknowledge clean jump technique at every level. If a beginner presented a jump card featuring a single toe-loop and a single Salchow and then did them both with commendable technique and quality -- Yay! But this is already rewarded twice, once in GOE and again is PCS.

To me, the drawback would be that it promotes the idea that figure skating as nothing but jumping. What if you (schefule" (i.e., hope for) a level 4 step sequence, but only deliver a level 3. What if your program features an Ina Bauer, the src in your back needs worK?

I think the bonus should only be applied to the full program content at its fullest, not just jumps. It would be all jumps as declared on program content, level 4 spins and level 4 step sequence, plus all your would need to be at least 0 GOE. I think if skaters do that, I can see giving a "clean skate" bonus. This would mean very few skaters would get the bonus, but I guess that's the point. Based on 4CC women's freeskate, only Chaeyeon would have received this.

 

[4everchan]

Slept on it, and I'd rather have anyone who has a negative GOE (so including saving jumps, step outs, turnouts, hands down, q, ur, wobbling) in any of their elements be slapped with deductions:

- minus one for each negative element; and

- additional automatic minus five if it happens in their SP / RD (including invalid element)

hehe but that's completely at the opposite of the Code of Points.... The way IJS works right now, is to build towards rewarding instead of penalizing.

 

[4everchan]

I think the bonus should only be applied to the full program content at its fullest, not just jumps. It would be all jumps as declared on program content, level 4 spins and level 4 step sequence, plus all your would need to be at least 0 GOE. I think if skaters do that, I can see giving a "clean skate" bonus. This would mean very few skaters would get the bonus, but I guess that's the point. Based on 4CC women's freeskate, only Chaeyeon would have received this.

well she may not have because that last spin was really wonky and should have received lower GOE. ... and honestly, would have it mattered in the end ? Let's say the bonus is 3 points.. or even just 1 point... or 10 if you prefer

She still wins

 

[yyzskater]

Quality? You mean giving bonuses to weaker skaters? For example someone has 2A+ 3T2T+3L clean would get bonus? When someone would try 3A+3L3T+3F and lets say a little step up and no bonus.
Not even gonna talk about people trying Quads
Make no sense.It would reward weaker skaters most likely.

What we need are educated judges that can score

Skaters aren't going to water down their programs to get the "clean skate" bonus. Doing the harder tech stuff will give them way more points than making it easier to get the bonus point. It literally can just be a one point bonus, similar to lower levels giving bonuses to try to encourage skaters to try harder jumps. This just gives a small incentive to try extra hard to get every level possible. Honestly, I think may even help the skating side of the sport over jumping since losing levels on a spin or step sequence is quite common. Maybe with the bonus, it would happen less.

 

[rabidline]

hehe but that's completely at the opposite of the Code of Points.... The way IJS works right now, is to build towards rewarding instead of penalizing.

And maybe that's the problem when some rewards are given selectively. There's not enough "fear" for skaters to consider skating clean instead of chasing all the bigger points.

 

[4everchan]

And maybe that's a problem................

I think the problem, as I have stated before is not the system but how judges deal with the system... Change the system, same problems... What needs changing is how judging is done.

I saw a lot of comments on the 4CC women's thread tonight about : Wakaba should be much higher in PCS than someone like Sarah.

I agree with that. However, Wakaba is higher and fell. So her PCS are capped. Sarah didn't fall... so there's that ... BUT... still Wakaba could have lost a bit more marks in performance AND received much higher marks in composition and skating skills.

So it doesn't matter what the rules are in the end if the people applying the rules sort of "go with the flow'

 

[rabidline]

I think the problem, as I have stated before is not the system but how judges deal with the system... Change the system, same problems... What needs changing is how judging is done.

I saw a lot of comments on the 4CC women's thread tonight about : Wakaba should be much higher in PCS than someone like Sarah.

I agree with that. However, Wakaba is higher and fell. So her PCS are capped. Sarah didn't fall... so there's that ... BUT... still Wakaba could have lost a bit more marks in performance AND received much higher marks in composition and skating skills.

So it doesn't matter what the rules are in the end if the people applying the rules sort of "go with the flow'

Yes, but everyone with eyes can't ignore hand down / step outs / falls / wobbles on spins, it's just now the punishment isn't hard enough for skaters to really fear not skating a program clean, which is what this post was trying to look if they can be incentivized for it.

So the judges can still play around, give a skater higher PCS for someone who fell, give just a tiny deduction for a big mistake rather than a -5 across the boards, but there will be other deductions to be implemented automatically.

 

[4everchan]

Yes, but everyone with eyes can't ignore hand down / step outs / falls / wobbles on spins, it's just now the punishment isn't hard enough for skaters to really fear not skating a program clean, which is what this post was trying to look if they can be incentivized for it.

So the judges can still play around, give a skater higher PCS for someone who fell, give just a tiny deduction for a big mistake rather than a -5 across the boards, but there will be other deductions to be implemented automatically.

do you really want me to give you example where skaters made mistakes and still didn't really get penalize... like even falls

(this is a rhetorical question)

 

[gkelly]

If skaters are skating scared because they fear being penalized for any visible mistake (or any little mistake that "muggles" can't recognize), they will skate cautiously. Or they will skate nervously because of that fear. Or both.

Either way, it's not going to result in cleaner more difficult programs skated with confidence.

They don't make mistakes because they don't have enough incentive not to. It's because they're trying to do as much as they can as well as they can, and their physical and mental condition at the time may get in the way of perfect performance. Stressing them out more is not going to give you what you want.

 

[LazyFuzai]

Skaters aren't going to water down their programs to get the "clean skate" bonus. Doing the harder tech stuff will give them way more points than making it easier to get the bonus point. It literally can just be a one point bonus, similar to lower levels giving bonuses to try to encourage skaters to try harder jumps. This just gives a small incentive to try extra hard to get every level possible. Honestly, I think may even help the skating side of the sport over jumping since losing levels on a spin or step sequence is quite common. Maybe with the bonus, it would happen less.

Yes,no one would lower level of their programs.The problem is there are people in competition that are doing low level jumps and will get bonus only because they do it clean.That's why it cannot work

 

[LazyFuzai]

Apparently, we have a very different idea about what quality is. Never mind

Quality is the highest levels and clean skate.But with your proposition most people doing lower levels would get free bonus.That's why is out of option.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

PCS evaluates the program regardless of technical mistakes; i.e., a program with falls may have high PCS.

This happening is wrong too. As mentioned above, a program that is clean/error-free should be rewarded with better presentation marks. Unfortunately with "popular" skaters they could still score higher in presentation with falls and errors, while a newer skater could go clean and their PCS may be kept at bay.

I'm not saying Shaidorov is quite a 9-level skater yet, but take the 4CC SP for example where he was clean (and still decent skating) and got 7.25-7.75 on PCS (7.71 overall), while a skater like Miura who is more established errored on his opening quad and also had a fall (errors on 2/3 jumping passes), and same with Tomono erring on 2/3 passes, and they scored 8.07 and 8.21, with PCS as high as 8.25 and even 8.75.

GOE/PCS is also hella subjective in itself too, and clean skating still isn't reward on either if you're not an established fave. For example, in the same SP, Matthew Newnham had a lovely triple axel in the SP with difficult entry transitions, nice air position, pretty effortless, and flow/extension on the landing, but the GOE it obtained was in the +1's mainly because nobody had ever heard of him (way underscored in his spins/steps too). He had beautiful lines and choreo and highlights, but because he's a relative nobody to the judges he wasn't rewarded - even for a 'clean program' - I mean, a 5.75 from one judge for presentation?!?

A clean program shouldn't receive any points bonus. It will encourage skaters to dilute their content, and it's so subjective as to what makes a program 'clean'. Their reward for skating cleanly is obtaining higher GOE points for clean elements. If a skater falls in the middle of their program randomly (e.g. Petrokina in her Euros FS), they give up -1 with the fall deduction, whatever the 'clean program bonus' is, and likely (hopefully) a reduced presentation score (since logically speaking, the overall impact/impression/presentation is compromised). That can be quite a swing.

 

[Anna K.]

Quality is the highest levels and clean skate.But with your proposition most people doing lower levels would get free bonus.That's why is out of option.

Why don't you say that IJS scoring system is "out of option" then? Just asking.
Under IJS, quality is rewarded by GOE and people doing lower levels receive GOE just like people doing higher levels.
You are, of course, free to set your own standards for your own use and understand as "quality" whatever you like. I'm just saying that it contradicts how "quality" is understood by the existing scoring system.

 

[Zora]

Bonus points is too difficult. I think a fall on an element should result in zero points. There's so much emphasis lately that figure skating is a sport - well you don't get points in high jump when the bar falls down, even if you've almost made it. It's a failed element.

 

[Mathematician]

They already get both GOE and PCS for clean skates and deduction for any sort of fall (not just failed jumps). If you mess up a slide in a StSq or something you get a deduction, plus minus GOE, plus minus PCS. Bonus for clean programs is already effectively implemented.

 

[Mathman]

I think the bonus should only be applied to the full program content at its fullest, not just jumps. It would be all jumps as declared on program content, level 4 spins and level 4 step sequence...

That presents a problem, too. The ISU scoring system has to accommodate competitive skaters at all levels. Not every novice is capable of a level 4 step sequence. Not all skaters are at the level of those that we see on TV at Four Continents, but they can still deliver "clean skates" -- if they skate clean.

 

[gmyers]

I don’t believe so! It would encourage less difficult jumps

 

[Anna K.]

It would encourage less difficult jumps

It depends.
Imagine that a skater makes a mistake at the beginning of the program and knows that he/she is not getting the clean bonus. Then he/she will be, quite contrary, encouraged to do the most difficult jumps to make it up.

 

[Mathman]

If skaters are skating scared because they fear being penalized for any visible mistake they will skate cautiously [and nervously]..

And not just the skaters, but the fans, too. I am always scared to death in the last 30 seconds of a program, when the performer has successfully banked 5 jumpining passes without disaster. I shout at the TV, "Stop, don't attempt any more jumps and spoil everything!"

 

[Karoltyna]

Skaters aren't going to water down their programs to get the "clean skate" bonus. Doing the harder tech stuff will give them way more points than making it easier to get the bonus point. It literally can just be a one point bonus, similar to lower levels giving bonuses to try to encourage skaters to try harder jumps. This just gives a small incentive to try extra hard to get every level possible. Honestly, I think may even help the skating side of the sport over jumping since losing levels on a spin or step sequence is quite common. Maybe with the bonus, it would happen less.

Or the easier way would be reward high levels on elements more.