Should suicide be legal?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Big question today on Public Radio.

Some replies were:

1. No because of religious convictions
2. Yes but only because of incurable disease
3. Yes if all personal matters have been dealt with.

Does a person planning suicide have a right to choose?

Should the government get involved in suicides?

 

[debdelilah]

I would say it should not be legal. In cases of terminal illness, the options open for pain care in hospice amount to the same thing, but the context makes a difference. Can high doses of pain medicine be lethal? Yes, over time, but it's not a reason to let terminal patients spend their last hours on earth in pain. This is already legal, and it's not considered suicide.

If suicide were legal, it would essentially be society's way of thumbing its nose at people who have difficulty fitting into society. Seems pretty selfish and inhumane to me. Many people threaten to commit suicide because they need help and are desparate to have someone reach out to them, and the last thing they need is for someone to pass them the gun, noose or syringe.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I would say it should not be legal. In cases of terminal illness, the options open for pain care in hospice amount to the same thing, but the context makes a difference. Can high doses of pain medicine be lethal? Yes, over time, but it's not a reason to let terminal patients spend their last hours on earth in pain. This is already legal, and it's not considered suicide

What if the suicide person is not in pain and has no desire to live? and has taken his life, what is the penalty for the illegality?

Pain is not the reasons for all suicides. I think in all cases it boils down to quality of life. As the actor, George Sanders wrote in his suicide note; I have done it all. What's the point?

What should a man do, when his wife of 50 years passed away and he is left without anyone. They were soul partners and now that's gone.

I don't think the question of legality should come up. it's all part of a person's right to choose. There should be a time period for 'changing one's mind'. Of course he has to find a doctor to assist this but not actually cause the death.
.

 

[Ptichka]

Yes, I believe that a person has a right to end their own life. Having said that, often a suicide attempt is a manifestation of mental illness, and therefore the society feels obliged to help the person if such an attempt is unsuccessful.

 

[debdelilah]

What if the suicide person is not in pain and has no desire to live? and has taken his life, what is the penalty for the illegality?

Pain is not the reasons for all suicides. I think in all cases it boils down to quality of life. As the actor, George Sanders wrote in his suicide note; I have done it all. What's the point?

What should a man do, when his wife of 50 years passed away and he is left without anyone. They were soul partners and now that's gone.

I don't think the question of legality should come up. it's all part of a person's right to choose. There should be a time period for 'changing one's mind'. Of course he has to find a doctor to assist this but not actually cause the death.
.

I think the problem is that the desire to harm oneself, as well as the desire to harm others, is considered a sign of psychosis. Grieving is normal; intense depression can be normal in some situations, and also temporary. If it is not temporary--if it is long term depression--then it is almost always treatable. People are depressed because they are isolated, because they have a B-12 deficiency or a problem with seratonin release, etc. Telling depressed people that it is socially acceptable that they kill themselves is merely feeding into the low self-esteem that they already have and dodging the responsibility for welcoming the person back into society and treating the depression.

Thinking about this by percentages--50% of women in America experience clinical depression at some time in their lives. "Cutting" is a huge problem in adolescent girls. If people over the age of eighteen had the legal right to kill themselves, there would be a lot of parents going mad with grief now. Children, too, because depression and feeling like a burden is also a problem with the elderly.

 

[Daniel5555]

I think, first of all we should separate two concepts - suicide and euthanasia. In my opinion the euthanasia should be legal if 1) there is absolutely no possibility of recovery, 2) the patient is willing for the euthanasia.

The suicide, however, I think, should be prevented in any case. If any society accepts the suicide or even seriously questions itself if it should be legal (and that's what happens here, right?), that society has some really big problems. The accepting of suicide is just a big fail of government and society that shows their complete incapacity of taking care about others and giving them the reason for living.

Joesitz

What should a man do, when his wife of 50 years passed away and he is left without anyone. They were soul partners and now that's gone.

What a man should do if his parents die?
I understand that all this can be very painful, but we should continue... for our friends, for our children. And even if we don't have them, still I think life has to offer a lot anyway.

I have done it all.

It's impossible to have done it all. If you have done everything, you should make a new goals in your life.

 

[skatingbc]

If people over the age of eighteen had the legal right to kill themselves, there would be a lot of parents going mad with grief now.

I suffered from depression during my late teen years. I frequently thought about suicide. Whenever I thought about it, I NEVER, not even once, thought, "Oh, well, suicide's illegal, that's why I won't kill myself today." I would be very surprised if anyone actually decided not to commit suicide because it is illegal.

 

[John King]

Yes, because one's life is one's own property. It is immaterial whether one believe's this is signalling societie's 'approval' of suicide, as so long as I do not violate another person's life, liberty or property, what I do with my own life is my own business, regardless of societie's 'approval'. Does one's suicide upset friends and family? Undoubtably. So does one's slow suicide by drinking or drug use. Should those things be illegal? As a libertarian, I say no. (There is a separate issue of what to do in the case of leaving behind unfinished business, whether it's offspring, or an unpaid debt. But just as there are legal ways to handle this when it happens in cases of sudden accidental death, there should be similar legal ways to deal with it in cases of suicide).

Anyways, the title of this thread is a misnomer. How do you legally punish someone who has committed suicide? The real question is, should attempted suicide be legal? I still say yes. Your life is your own. That doesn't mean that I won't try to talk the person out of it, if I feel their reason is out of depression. It is that I cannot force them to substitute my ( or societie's) judgement over their own for what should essentially be their decision.

If it isn't for reasons of terminal illness, and is an out-and-out case of depression, is suicide a sign of mental illness? Perhaps. But, just as in the case of alcoholism and substance abuse (including prescription drugs), the time for the law to step in with cases of mental illness is when the person has violated, or threatened to violate, another person's life liberty or property. Just as there are organisations like AA to deal with alcoholics, there are several organisations to help people deal with depression that some feel might lead to suicide.

Inquiry: if it were to be illegal, what should be the punishment for attempted suicide? A fine? :scratch: That should take the weight off the would-be's shoulders. Incarceration? :disagree: What a great idea, putting a guy/gal who doesn't feel life is worth living intogether with murderers, rapists, arsonists, fraud-schemers, etc. My guess is that if a person has attempted suicide, but failed, there are those who feel the person should be committed to a psychiatric institution, and forced to undergo therapy. Sorry, but incarceration is still incarceration. The end does not justify the means.

I'm not trying to treat the subject lightly. Several years ago, an Uncle of mine committed suicide. But that was his decision, just as some acquaintances decision to commit slow drawn-out suicide with drink or drugs was theirs. Society should be built upon choice, even if the choices might be most upsetting for loved ones.

 

[Daniel5555]

John King

That doesn't mean that I won't try to talk the person out of it, if I feel their reason is out of depression. It is that I cannot force them to substitute my ( or societie's) judgement over their own for what should essentially be their decision.

So you want to say, that if someone is about to jump from the roof of a very high building, we shouldn't try to save him by any means other than "talking" because that would be impairment of his rights?

 

[Tonichelle]

:scratch: Is it illegal? I mean, how does one prosecute those that are "successful"? and in the case of those that aren't... I've never heard of anyone getting sent to court, they always end up "getting help"...

 

[John King]

John King
So you want to say, that if someone is about to jump from the roof of a very high building, we shouldn't try to save him by any means other than "talking" because that would be impairment of his rights?

No, because of the very obvious issue of him possibly harming people below. Did you miss the part where I said "so long as (the person attempting suicide) does not violate another person's life liberty or property...." ? Going onto a rooftop without athourization is trespassing, to say the very least.

If I saw a stranger or, more important, a loved one, trying to end their life, of course I would try to intevene, circumstances permitting. And I would try to get that person help. It is one of those 'lifeboat' situations where my ethical code takes a back seat to my gut instict. But should the guy be incarcerated for it, whether in jail or in an institution? That was the main point of this thread. And my answer still is no!

 

[debdelilah]

Yes, because one's life is one's own property. It is immaterial whether one believe's this is signalling societie's 'approval' of suicide, as so long as I do not violate another person's life, liberty or property, what I do with my own life is my own business, regardless of societie's 'approval'. Does one's suicide upset friends and family? Undoubtably. So does one's slow suicide by drinking or drug use. Should those things be illegal? As a libertarian, I say no. (There is a separate issue of what to do in the case of leaving behind unfinished business, whether it's offspring, or an unpaid debt. But just as there are legal ways to handle this when it happens in cases of sudden accidental death, there should be similar legal ways to deal with it in cases of suicide).

Anyways, the title of this thread is a misnomer. How do you legally punish someone who has committed suicide? The real question is, should attempted suicide be legal? I still say yes. Your life is your own. That doesn't mean that I won't try to talk the person out of it, if I feel their reason is out of depression. It is that I cannot force them to substitute my ( or societie's) judgement over their own for what should essentially be their decision.

If it isn't for reasons of terminal illness, and is an out-and-out case of depression, is suicide a sign of mental illness? Perhaps. But, just as in the case of alcoholism and substance abuse (including prescription drugs), the time for the law to step in with cases of mental illness is when the person has violated, or threatened to violate, another person's life liberty or property. Just as there are organisations like AA to deal with alcoholics, there are several organisations to help people deal with depression that some feel might lead to suicide.

Inquiry: if it were to be illegal, what should be the punishment for attempted suicide? A fine? :scratch: That should take the weight off the would-be's shoulders. Incarceration? :disagree: What a great idea, putting a guy/gal who doesn't feel life is worth living intogether with murderers, rapists, arsonists, fraud-schemers, etc. My guess is that if a person has attempted suicide, but failed, there are those who feel the person should be committed to a psychiatric institution, and forced to undergo therapy. Sorry, but incarceration is still incarceration. The end does not justify the means.

I'm not trying to treat the subject lightly. Several years ago, an Uncle of mine committed suicide. But that was his decision, just as some acquaintances decision to commit slow drawn-out suicide with drink or drugs was theirs. Society should be built upon choice, even if the choices might be most upsetting for loved ones.

-Illegality of suicide is the status quo, and that doesn't mean that we are imprisoning people who attempt suicide at all, much less with rapists. People who attempt suicide are more likely to be treated with a brief hospital stay, and then on an outpatient basis. The harm in making suicide legal is that when a person lacks appropriate mental capacity(such as a child, an elder with dementia, or a person with psychosis) society stands in loco parentis. The decision to commit suicide, in and of itself, meets the definition of psychosis. Allowing it to occur is neglect leading to loss of life. Laws do not require children to fend for themselves, and should also not require this of the mentally ill. From my perspective, it is unequivocably wrong for society to allow suicide for the same reason that it is wrong to allow child neglect, and the illegality is on the part of those who allow it to occur, not on the part of a person who attempts suicide.

To argue the point of harm, though--assuming a rational person not in either physical or mental anguish somehow decided to commit suicide, how is this less harmful than a person deciding to expose themselves naked in public? It causes emotional distress, not physical harm or loss of property, but it is still illegal. Friends, family and colleagues scheduling death appointments would cause more of a bump in the road than people showing up naked to work, in my opinion.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

some posters correctly state that thoughts of suicide are brought about by depresssion. yet depression caused by so many things.

I believe suicide is caused by loneliness, which, of course brings on depression. Counselling loneliness doesn't work if the person is of an age and place where joining clubs does not exists.

 

[dorispulaski]

:scratch: Is it illegal? I mean, how does one prosecute those that are "successful"? and in the case of those that aren't... I've never heard of anyone getting sent to court, they always end up "getting help"...

Some people whose suicide attempts have killed others have gone to court. However, AFAIK in that case, I believe the charge is murder or manslaughter, as in this case with the guy who derailed a train:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145548,00.html

Sometimes, people have been arrested for suicide:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940DE6DD1338E033A25754C1A9619C94659FD7CF

The above is an NYT article from 1884.

Another from 1904

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940DE1DC143DE631A25751C1A9609C946597D6CF

However, here is a case of a woman in 2004 who was arrested in Georgia for attempted suicide. It looks like she was arrested rather than just let go because she had attempted suicide before, and was pregnant:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/60307/1/pregnant-woman-arrested-for-attempted-suicide.html

 

[John King]

-Illegality of suicide is the status quo, and that doesn't mean that we are imprisoning people who attempt suicide at all, much less with rapists. People who attempt suicide are more likely to be treated with a brief hospital stay, and then on an outpatient basis. The harm in making suicide legal is that when a person lacks appropriate mental capacity(such as a child, an elder with dementia, or a person with psychosis) society stands in loco parentis. The decision to commit suicide, in and of itself, meets the definition of psychosis. Allowing it to occur is neglect leading to loss of life. Laws do not require children to fend for themselves, and should also not require this of the mentally ill. From my perspective, it is unequivocably wrong for society to allow suicide for the same reason that it is wrong to allow child neglect, and the illegality is on the part of those who allow it to occur, not on the part of a person who attempts suicide.

To argue the point of harm, though--assuming a rational person not in either physical or mental anguish somehow decided to commit suicide, how is this less harmful than a person deciding to expose themselves naked in public? It causes emotional distress, not physical harm or loss of property, but it is still illegal. Friends, family and colleagues scheduling death appointments would cause more of a bump in the road than people showing up naked to work, in my opinion.

As in all things about legality, I am/was referring to what adults are legally allowed to do. Children are not adults, and parents who bring them into the world have an obligation to raise them until they reach the age to fend for themselves (and if they can't, give them up for adoption). As for the elderly with dementia, my paternal Grandmother had that, couldn't take care of herself, which was why we had her committed to an institution. The point is, she lacked the mental faculties to object, which made the whole question of 'consent' a moot point. This is different from a grown adult whose distress had taken priority over their otherwise normal mental faculties. As for exposing oneself in public, that again is a separate issue of mores while in public.

 

[debdelilah]

However, here is a case of a woman in 2004 who was arrested in Georgia for attempted suicide. It looks like she was arrested rather than just let go because she had attempted suicide before, and was pregnant:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/60307/1/pregnant-woman-arrested-for-attempted-suicide.html

This appears to have happened in Ghana, not Georgia.

 

[Tonichelle]

Some people whose suicide attempts have killed others have gone to court. However, AFAIK in that case, I believe the charge is murder or manslaughter, as in this case with the guy who derailed a train:

Well, yeah, they aren't just taking their own life, they could potentially take the lives over others... that doesn't surprise me that they're in court... but like you said, it wasn't for attempted suicide...

Sometimes, people have been arrested for suicide:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940DE6DD1338E033A25754C1A9619C94659FD7CF

The above is an NYT article from 1884.

Another from 1904

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940DE1DC143DE631A25751C1A9609C946597D6CF

Well, yeah over a cenurty ago... I can see it being a bigger deal "back then"

However, here is a case of a woman in 2004 who was arrested in Georgia for attempted suicide. It looks like she was arrested rather than just let go because she had attempted suicide before, and was pregnant:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/60307/1/pregnant-woman-arrested-for-attempted-suicide.html

this is more surprising... but she's a pregnant woman... again she is not just potentially taking HER life.

 

[debdelilah]

As in all things about legality, I am/was referring to what adults are legally allowed to do. Children are not adults, and parents who bring them into the world have an obligation to raise them until they reach the age to fend for themselves (and if they can't, give them up for adoption). As for the elderly with dementia, my paternal Grandmother had that, couldn't take care of herself, which was why we had her committed to an institution. The point is, she lacked the mental faculties to object, which made the whole question of 'consent' a moot point. This is different from a grown adult whose distress had taken priority over their otherwise normal mental faculties. As for exposing oneself in public, that again is a separate issue of mores while in public.

Under the law, psychosis is one of the categories of mental incapacitation. It can be temporary and happen to otherwise normal people, but it is pyschosis nonetheless. In its temporary form, it's called a psychotic episode.

The difference between a neurosis and a psychosis is that the latter crosses the line to where the person can no longer make rational decisions, and in the process, becomes a danger to either himself, others, or both. Extreme mental anguish leading to suicidal thoughts and attempted suicide characterizes a psychotic episode. A family member of mine--smart, with many friends, and successful now about eight years down the road--had such an episode, which caused dramatic changes in his behavior and emotions. He was able to speak coherently even while mentally ill, but this did not mean he was thinking coherently--mental anguish is not a particularly coherent state of mind, and many people who have it benefit from the psychological equivalent of pain relief.

The danger of legalizing suicide is that it would turn a formally protected group--those who are mentally ill and desire to harm themselves--into one unprotected under the law. Hospitalization for a week for one person costs thousands of dollars, and so does outpatient care--a particularly mercenary person could argue that legalizing suicide would save public health funds that would otherwise go to treating mental illness. Saying that suicide is a rational choice removes responsibility from society for treating the underlying psychological condition.

Suicide being illegal does not affect the person committing suicide--as another person said, few people contemplating suicide would decide not to do it simply because it's against the law. But if suicide were legal--a lawful activity which people could be aided in, lawfully look the other way toward, or even experience social pressure to commit--the depressed who place little value on their lives would be the last people to find freedom in this. They'd experience lack of funding, lack of programs, and lack of help. Is this supposed to be about their freedom, or society's freedom from the obligation of helping them? In words, it's all about the former, but in practical terms, the second option is the reality.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

When caught in a political, criminal, or social deviant scandal, will drive some to suicide or at least serisously think about it. Would counselling help?
If so then the saved person has to face all that agony. Quality of Life?????

 

[antmanb]

When caught in a political, criminal, or social deviant scandal, will drive some to suicide or at least serisously think about it. Would counselling help?
If so then the saved person has to face all that agony. Quality of Life?????

Honestly, like others have said, i don't think it would matter to a person faced with any of the situations you have posed up there whether suicide was legal or not and whether they would go through with it. Would a criminal (clearly morally content with breaking the law) be any more phased if suicide was illegal?

Personally I think counselling can certainly help anyone invovled in political, criminal or social scandals. The point of counselling is to help people cope with all kinds of stress including the ones you mentioned. Dealing with what life throws at you is really one of the main points of being here. If suicide is illegal then the greater message sent out to people is that continuing in life is of utmost importance, that you should fight to keep track with things rather than give up and committ suicide. For the ones who truly believe suicide is the only option they will continue regardless of the law.

But it is worth baring in mind that most "suicide" attempts are cries for help not actual attempts to take ones life. If it was legal to committ suicide what would others duties be in relation to that? If a relative finds a family member with their wrists slashed/by an empty bottle of pills and that family member is still alive, if they phone for emergency services would emergency services simply answer - they've clearly attempted suicide, it's perfectly legal so leave them to die? How would that make the relatives feel?

Ant