South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[Alba]

I think you can make a case for Kostner coming in first in the short program, but how do you give OGM to a skater who doesn't do a triple-triple in the long?

I myself agree, and not just because of the 3 combo. I din't like her Bolero too much tbh, but I think she defenitely should've won the short.

 

[Alba]

Read this part then I will not repeat again:

I think you're talking in two different "languages" here.
Your point was that the Koreans are not saints either, while he/she's point is that the Russians are the greates villains in the history of sport.

 

[Ven]

Ven did claim Sochi was the worst scandal in all of sports which made the comparison of any sport fair game.

I said it was the biggest I've ever seen (excluding doping). I've seen a lot of sports in say the last 20-25 years, but not all, who has?

Yuna getting a silver is controversial yes...but the biggest scandal in all of sports? Is it really even the biggest in FS history.

I'd argue yes, it's the biggest, and no matter how you look at it, it's a pretty darn big deal.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I said it was the biggest I've ever seen (excluding doping). I've seen a lot of sports in say the last 20-25 years, but not all, who has?



I'd argue yes, it's the biggest, and no matter how you look at it, it's a pretty darn big deal.

I think that is completely fair. It is a big deal. I can't say for certain anyone should have won. For that I'm sorry. What I can say for certain is the judging was not good. It wasn't fair for anyone involved. Adelina has to live up to a controversial win which stands to be a defining moment on her career and Yuna fans are left scratching their heads. I did however take some joy in Rabbid's sentiment of Yuna owning the most memorable silver ever. And lets face it...her career is that of legend.

 

[nguyenghita]

I think that is completely fair. It is a big deal. I can't say for certain anyone should have won. For that I'm sorry. What I can say for certain is the judging was not good. It wasn't fair for anyone involved. Adelina has to live up to a controversial win which stands to be a defining moment on her career and Yuna fans are left scratching their heads. I did however take some joy in Rabbid's sentiment of Yuna owning the most memorable silver ever. And lets face it...her career is that of legend.

Agree here :yay:

 

[Ven]

While I think Kostner should have won, and then Kim, then Sotnikova, I think the most grievous thing was Sotnikova won by a fairly considerable margin of 5 points.

I am not really a Kostner fan, but I will say this -- I thought her SP was terrific, and I would have had her neck and neck right behind Yuna 1-2, then a larger gap back to Sotnikova third, who herself should have been (and was) considerably clear of the others. I didn't like Kostner's LP nearly as much as her SP, and it was watered down, but I gave her credit for going clean under that kind of pressure. When she finished I immediately thought "well that's it, anyone who wants to beat Carolina has to go clean, no margin for error now." And Yuna did, and Sotnikova did not, and Sotnikova was the skater who won, by a considerable margin no less!

And that brings us to the debate about whether Sochi was merely controversial or outright scandal and fraud. Ven and a bunch of people say Kim should have won, CSG and some other people say Carolina should have won. And you know what? Neither of those two skaters had incorrect technical calls made that put them at advantage compared to each other or the field. Both of their PCS scores were in line with what could be expected, adding in some moderate clean Olympic boost. A debate between these two skaters who have consistently shown themselves to be the top of the ladies figure skating world and performed exemplary would be just that ... a subjective debate for the most part.

But the case of Sotnikova is far different. She received the benefit of many incorrect technical calls that put her at an advantage to everyone else. How can so many technical calls be made incorrectly without it being done on purpose? And then it wasn't just the technical calls, but the PCS too...when all other skaters have shown a plateau or gradual increase in their PCS scores over the past seasons, how can the Russian girls' PCS increase so dramatically overnight? A few weeks before the Olympics Adelina's PCS could be more than 10 points below that of a clean Kim and Kostner ... now suddenly overnight she can tie one of them and beat the other? I'm all for a PB since she had the best skate of her life, but to close the entire margin just like that? No way Jose.

 

[[email protected]]

dirtiest?? eh.. every country has one in every sporting event.. i remember the 1972 olympic games when the US was beaten by the USSR in the basketball game... that was in your face bloody cheating.. everyone knows in the basketball community how bad the officiating was in that game and even the aftermath..

"Everybody knows" - popular but manupilative argument. "Everybody knows, Yuna should have won", "Everybody knows USA should have won in 1972"....Apparently not everybody. Yes, emotionally it was difficult to accept that USSR had to start 3 times, and that when they finally did it right they won. But if one sets emotions aside what one will see? What do I see? It is the last minute. USSR is leading 49:48. During the whole game USA was NEVER in the lead. At 0:21 there is a foul - USSR is hit with an elbow by a US defender. Not called. At 0:28 USA pushes himself forward not noticing anything. USSR defender does not move against him - if one pauses exactly at 0:29 one can see that it was not a 100% clear call. Anyway it was called and USA is in the lead 50:49. Before the ball is on, USSR coach addresses the panel for the time-out. It's proven that it was BEFORE. The game had to stop and replayed. That's the first time. The second call was from guess who? Corrupt Eastern European judge who hugged Russian players in the aftermath? No, it was from the founder and the head of the International basketball association from 1932 to 1976, William Jones. The rule is that the time of the game starts when the player touches the ball. At 2:55 one can hear the end game signal while the ball is still in the air. It had to be replayed based on the rules. And it was. The only controversy in this situation is that William Jones did not have the right to change the game - it had to be judges without the external pressure. But from the point of justice he did right and USSR deserved the win. Of course, it was hard to accept - USA never lost before. It is always the first time one day....

http://youtu.be/XqRjmdJuf6U

 

[Alba]

"Everybody knows" - popular but manupilative argument. "Everybody knows, Yuna should have won", "Everybody knows USA should have won in 1972"....Apparently not everybody. Yes, emotionally it was difficult to accept that USSR had to start 3 times, and that when they finally did it right they won. But if one set emotions aside what one will see? What do I see? It is the last minute. USSR is leading 49:48. During the whole game USA was NEVER in the lead. At 0:21 there is a foul - USSR is hit with an elbow by a US defender. Not called. At 0:28 USA pushes himself forward not noticing anything. USSR defender does not move against him - if one pauses exactly at 0:29 one can see that it was not a 100% clear call. Anyway it was called and USA is in the lead 50:49. Before the ball is on, USSR coach addresses the panel for the time-out. It's proven that it was BEFORE. The game had to stop and replayed. That's the first time. The second call was from guess who? Corrupt Eastern European judge who hugged Russian players in the aftermath? No, it was from the founder and the head of the International basketball association from 1932 to 1976, William Jones. The rule is that the time of the game starts when the player touches the ball. At 2:55 one can hear the end game signal while the ball is still in the air. It had to be replayed based on the rules. And it was. The only controversy in this situation is that William Jones did not have the right to change the game - it had to be judges without the external pressure. But from the point of justice he did right and USSR deserved the win. Of course, it was hard to accept - USA never lost before. It is always the first time one day....

http://youtu.be/XqRjmdJuf6U

I was not born in 1972 but I obviously read a lot about it. Basket is also a game which I very much like, better say used to like a lot not so much nowdays, and the volley.

From my understanding what happened in that night was due to poor decision making from the officials, ref. included, starting with not giving to the Soviets the first time-out when they called for it.
From the first inbounds play to the third one they (the officials) were in total confusion, in part also due to their barrier language.
According to Ed Steitz. "He (Jones) indicated that never did he think the Soviets would be able to score,".

I think it was very controversial, but to call it a blatant cheating is over the top, to say the least.
I agree with Henry Iba, the U.S. coach: "I don't think there was cheating. I think it was just handled bad. They just wanted to handle it right and they didn't know what they were doing."
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-09-24/sports/sp-507_1_olympic-basketball

 

[Vanshilar]

Human nature. Only 2-5% of figure skating fans give a rat's patootie about analyzing CoP points. Instead, most fans like to gush over the sublime transcendence of their favorites, to cuss when their favorites lose, and to argue with their friends about it (said friends being idiots if they don't agree).

Sure, and only 2-5% of figure skating fans have Edmunds as their favorite skater (just picking a random skater). And post about it in the appropriate thread(s). There are threads on different topics for people who are interested in those particular topics, and well, if a person isn't interested in a particular topic, I don't see why they should post in it. (I don't go around all day posting in Britney Spears forums if I have no interest in Britney Spears.) The problem is when posters bring their own commentary into threads that aren't related or only tangentially related to what the thread is about, ending up just diluting the thread and derailing it. They can make their own thread if they want their own soapbox to stand on rather than hijack other threads that are discussing other topics. (And yes, I know this is my own commentary on this thread that's not related to South Korea's complaint, so I'm only contributing to the problem, but the ship has sailed on the thread getting rerailed a long time ago, to mix metaphors.)

I think the most grievous thing was Sotnikova won by a fairly considerable margin of 5 points. If she won, it should have been by the skin of her teeth, and not so definitively.

What I can say for certain is the judging was not good. It wasn't fair for anyone involved. Adelina has to live up to a controversial win which stands to be a defining moment on her career and Yuna fans are left scratching their heads. I did however take some joy in Rabbid's sentiment of Yuna owning the most memorable silver ever. And lets face it...her career is that of legend.

Pretty much. I think there's good cases to be made that it should've been a toss-up, at least to me (a casual viewer). So if either Adelina or Yuna had won by 1-2 points, I would've been fine with it. On the other hand, the gap was too big to be a toss-up, and I don't see how Mao could've gotten such a low score by comparison on the FS. I think that's what got me interested in looking at how the judging system works in the first place, to see what was going on that didn't match what I saw. And I'm sure had Adelina won by 1-2 points, then a lot more Yuna fans would have been screaming bloody murder and trying to dissect every single GOE and PCS -- so the judges sort of had to make the gap noticeably big to say "hey Adelina was markedly better" to quell this. Unfortunately they padded Adelina's scores by so much (via inflated GOEs and erroneous technical judging) that it itself became suspicious, and judging discrepancies became easy to find; but there wasn't much choice in that since they didn't know how Yuna would skate yet. They had to choose between either a close win and Yuna fans going ballistic, or a not-close win and casual viewers shaking their heads in disbelief.

My wife mentioned that the skater that was really robbed was Adelina; she was a perfectly fine up-and-coming skater but now there will be so much scrutiny of her every skate moving forward, so she was robbed of a "regular" skating career trajectory, and there will be immense pressure on her from here on out. In many ways if she had won by 1-2 points instead then there would be a lot less skepticism of her moving forward, because there wouldn't be the cloud of judging influence hanging over her; it would've been much easier to make the case that she had won "fair and square" if the judging were more consistent with the judging guidelines.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm not Russian but I'm suffering from second hand offense. Way OTT!!

Being a part of the international forum for the first time in my life I was sort of overwhelmed by this at first. Now seem to adjust just trying to interfere in the most notorious cases. We live in the world of double standards. For better or for worse we do not have another world.

 

[[email protected]]

I was not born in 1972 but I obviously read a lot about it. Basket is also a game which I very much like, better say used to like a lot not so much nowdays, and the volley.

From my understanding what happened in that night was due to poor decision making from the officials, ref. included, starting with not giving to the Soviets the first time-out when they called for it.
From the first inbounds play to the third one they (the officials) were in total confusion, in part also due to their barrier language.
According to Ed Steitz. "He (Jones) indicated that never did he think the Soviets would be able to score,".

I think it was very controversial, but to call it a blatant cheating is over the top, to say the least.
I agree with Henry Iba, the U.S. coach: "I don't think there was cheating. I think it was just handled bad. They just wanted to handle it right and they didn't know what they were doing."
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-09-24/sports/sp-507_1_olympic-basketball

once again, there are emotions and there are facts. I would stick to the facts.

1) Overall, teams were equal and Russia lead the whole game. There were no complaints about poor calls in favor of USSR during the game. So it is in principle unfair to say that USSR cheated the victory like South Korea in 2002.
2) USSR requested the time-out in an acceptable format - then it had to be granted was there language barrier or not.
3) There was the end game signal while the ball was in the air: one can hear it for oneself. The ball had to be replayed.

These are facts - anything else is whining: "you know, Americans are way better skaters, sorry, basketball players, then they should always win, otherwise it is fraud and cheating".

 

[Alba]

once again, there are emotions and there are facts. I would stick to the facts.

I'm not being emotional at all. I was not even born, as I said, so it's just based on what I've read and some documentaries that I've seen.
I admit, I haven't read anything russian on the subject because of the language.
I actually was always a fan of Yugoslavia and Cibona, mainly thanks to Draze Petrovic, in Basket.

1) Overall, teams were equal and Russia lead the whole game. There were no complaints about poor calls in favor of USSR during the game. So it is in principle unfair to say that USSR cheated the victory like South Korea in 2002.

That's what I said as well.

2) USSR requested the time-out in an acceptable format - then it had to be granted was there language barrier or not.
3) There was the end game signal while the ball was in the air: one can hear it for oneself. The ball had to be replayed.

I mentioned the language barrier because it certainly didn't help to the confusion that the officials had already created having a ref. who spoke portuguese and the officials working the scorer's table spoke german, only.

 

[Alba]

There are threads on different topics for people who are interested in those particular topics, and well, if a person isn't interested in a particular topic, I don't see why they should post in it. (I don't go around all day posting in Britney Spears forums if I have no interest in Britney Spears.) The problem is when posters bring their own commentary into threads that aren't related or only tangentially related to what the thread is about, ending up just diluting the thread and derailing it. They can make their own thread if they want their own soapbox to stand on rather than hijack other threads that are discussing other topics. (And yes, I know this is my own commentary on this thread that's not related to South Korea's complaint, so I'm only contributing to the problem, but the ship has sailed on the thread getting rerailed a long time ago, to mix metaphors.)

If you really want to talk about South Korea's complain, than this topic should've died a long time ago.
There are no news about it for a long time now. What are we going to discuss about their complain when we haven't seen even the text?
I'm starting to doubt even if this complain does really exist now.

 

[[email protected]]

If you really want to talk about South Korea's complain, than this topic should've died a long time ago.
There are no news about it for a long time now. What are we going to discuss about their complain when we haven't seen even the text?
I'm starting to doubt even if this complain does really exist now.

I agree with you completely. And in the absense of the news some people are doing everything to "keep the fire" including taking out basketball games of 1972 just to "prove" the point that "the Russians always cheat".

 

[dorispulaski]

Russians are sometimes cheated too. One of the most egregious cases was in the Canada-Russia hockey series of 1972 when Bobby Clarke deliberately nearly broke top-scorer Kharlamov's ankle, taking him out of the series. And interviews of many Canadians to this day approve Clarke's move. Clarke was not banned from hockey, as Tonya Harding was from skating, for deliberately attacking a competitor. He played for many years afterward, becoming GM of the Flyers when he retired from playing. He is currently Senior VP of the organization.

http://www.1972summitseries.com/game7recap.html

 

[[email protected]]

Russians are sometimes cheated too. One of the most egregious cases was in the Canada-Russia hockey series of 1972 when Bobby Clarke deliberately nearly broke top-scorer Kharlamov's ankle, taking him out of the series. And interviews of many Canadians to this day approve Clarke's move. Clarke was not banned from hockey, as Tonya Harding was from skating, for deliberately attacking a competitor. He played for many years afterward, becoming GM of the Flyers when he retired from playing. He is currently Senior VP of the organization.

http://www.1972summitseries.com/game7recap.html

That case with some exaggeration was shown in one of few good Russian movies last year http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2182001/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

I rewatched recently the whole series. Of course, it was not as dramatic as shown in the movie. But the Canadians were in fact much ruder than the Russians. During the canadian part the second game was the most notorious - USSR was ready to quit if the judges were not replaced. But same as with USA and basketball before 1972 no one thought that NHL players could lose in principle. Ken Driden wrote that before the series anything but 8:0 had been considered as a failure. Well, Canada lost the very first game 3:7 after leading 2:0 just 5 minutes into the game.

 

[dorispulaski]

There was a documentary in the last couple of years here in the USA about it it. Players, fans, and others from both countries were interviewed. I had forgotten how sickening this series was and how blatant Clarke's attack was. And Kharlamov was such a splendid player.

I'll see whether I can find a link.
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/20...sports-network-debut-day-on-january-2/114819/

It was called "Cold War On Ice." It's on youtube.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3esWG3k_Wn8

 

[BusyMom]

This is what you calk the dirtiest scandal ever in football history. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPd8YmFcvtQ
Do you know what's more painful? Millions and millions of people watching that fraud but couldn't do anything.
I felt so bad for Portugal, Spain and Italy. Everyone in the world can see they were on the different level, and always have been. They scored fairly but were denied their goals because, lol, the judges decided to favor South Korea, the host nation.:disapp:
All 3 great teams had to pack their luggages earlier than they deserved thanked to bad judging/cheating/fraud. I was so happy the German team pulled it together to go against all odds. Just image if they were denied their goal, FIFA could have been smashed into pieces.
Funny enough, the next World Cup it's Italia the world champion, the following it's Spain. These 2 were both cheated in South Korea. they all became world champion after that scandal.

Cheating in a game of football is different. It is always on just one game not the whole campaign schemes. Usually involving the dirty world of gambling nothing more nothing less. People are always frustrated but accepted it as part of the games. England got the worst luck with Maradona's Hand of God since from the documentary I watched both Maradona and the referee admittedly acknowledge the illegitimated of that goal. Maradona admitted that he did it purposely, the referee on the other hand said he was too scare to call the hand ball.

 

[Alain]

no.. but at least one time in the sport a south korean admitted that the result was wrong but the russians NEVER admitted anything in their life that they also cheated.. that's the difference.. they have this aura that they won fair and square..

One more example why some people quit Yuna fandom long time ago.

 

[cooper]

One more example why some people quit Yuna fandom long time ago.

nah..

I agree with you completely. And in the absense of the news some people are doing everything to "keep the fire" including taking out basketball games of 1972 just to "prove" the point that "the Russians always cheat".

before you start crying about proving point why russians cheated.. then you should go back from previous pages.. south koreans cheated.. every country in sporting history has cheated.. including your beloved russia..

That case with some exaggeration was shown in one of few good Russian movies last year http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2182001/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

I rewatched recently the whole series. Of course, it was not as dramatic as shown in the movie. But the Canadians were in fact much ruder than the Russians. During the canadian part the second game was the most notorious - USSR was ready to quit if the judges were not replaced. But same as with USA and basketball before 1972 no one thought that NHL players could lose in principle. Ken Driden wrote that before the series anything but 8:0 had been considered as a failure. Well, Canada lost the very first game 3:7 after leading 2:0 just 5 minutes into the game.

of course.. you're just proving my point..

see.. russia never cheated in their life.. there's always an excuse.. they never admitted to anything..