South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[Blades of Passion]

Again, what is the difference between MODEST or MODERATE Use of Upper Body Movement (Level 3) and FULL Use of Upper Body Movement (Level 4)?

WHY do you keep quoting outdated rules?

And the difference, in the old rules, was that you basically needed upper body movements for the entire duration of the sequence in order to get Level 4. People were not happy about needing to flail for an entire sequence to get Level 4 and thus it was changed.

 

[Rubirosa]

Oh god. Did they file the complain or not? Do they need help?

What everyone is here still talking about?

 

[Alba]

Oh god. Did they file the complain or not? Do they need help?

What everyone is here still talking about?

I was thinking the same. :thumbsup:

 

[jaylee]

Then I would say you are seeing with very different eyes from mine, and I agree with the Tech Panel that while Yuna dipped twice, it wasn't enough to count for 1/3 of stsq DURATION. Again, Yuna received Level 3 more often than Level 4 for her stsq and spins, why wasn't this controversial before for the other competitions? Yuna must be aware that Caro does ALOT more for her stsq, why didn't she incorporate these details like Caro to elevate her stsq?

You have no idea why the tech panel awarded Yuna level 3. Actually, over the past 2 seasons, Yuna received a level 4 at least once at every competition, and sometimes twice (2013 Worlds, 2014 Korean Nationals). So what you're saying is not true--she didn't receive level 3 more often than level 4 for her step sequences. (And what do her spins have to do with it?)

The rule requirements are not that you do as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Completely irrelevant.

Again, you can't compare Gracie at one competition, Worlds, to another, Sochi, because the Tech Panel might be more lenient at one but not the other. Maybe Yuna would have received Level 4 at Worlds too, who knows?

Gotcha. The tech panel at one competition might be more lenient with what fulfills the upper body movement than a tech panel at another competition. So that means that there is not a strict, narrow, and consistent interpretation of what the upper body criteria is, if tech panels at different competitions can disagree. Which means that your relentless arguments saying that Yuna definitely did not fulfill that requirements are not definitive or conclusive.

In addition, you refused to address my point that the tech panel at the same competition awarded level 4 to Mao Asada in the FS, and her torso remains mostly upright throughout the entire step sequence. She has plenty of arm movement but she does not have as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Her and Yuna have around the same amount of upper body movement. Yet the tech panel awarded level 4 to Mao and level 3 to Yuna.

I would also add this: let's assume that the tech panel applied a very strict and narrow definition for fulfilling the upper body movement criteria at the Olympics FS and that justifiably Yuna was awarded level 3. That still does not justify Adelina Sotnikova's level 4 as it has been shown, step by step, definitively (without requiring on a strict and narrow interpretation of the rules) that she did not fulfill TWO of the four criteria for a level 4 step sequences. In fact, it would prove that the technical panel was very strict on Yuna fulfilling the requirement while being beyond lenient for Adelina--the generosity is excessive enough to doubt that the tech panel's intention was innocent. Adelina didn't receive a level 4 on her FS step sequence all season long--not even at her own Nationals. That's in 6 competitions, counting Japan Open, two GPs, GPF, Russian Nationals, and Europeans.

The 0.6 BV difference wouldn't change the result, but to make an inaccurate allegation to cast aspersions on the Tech Panel, that is another story.

There is already plenty of evidence to cast aspersions on the tech panel even outside the step sequences--the missed flutz and UR of Adelina's 3Lz/3T. It all adds up.

 

[CarneAsada]

For a second I thought this was the footwork analysis thread. I love how qwertyskates replies to everything with (paraphrased) "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[leafygreens]

You have no idea why the tech panel awarded Yuna level 3. Actually, over the past 2 seasons, Yuna received a level 4 at least once at every competition, and sometimes twice (2013 Worlds, 2014 Korean Nationals). So what you're saying is not true--she didn't receive level 3 more often than level 4 for her step sequences. (And what do her spins have to do with it?)

The rule requirements are not that you do as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Completely irrelevant.



Gotcha. The tech panel at one competition might be more lenient with what fulfills the upper body movement than a tech panel at another competition. So that means that there is not a strict, narrow, and consistent interpretation of what the upper body criteria is, if tech panels at different competitions can disagree. Which means that your relentless arguments saying that Yuna definitely did not fulfill that requirements are not definitive or conclusive.

In addition, you refused to address my point that the tech panel at the same competition awarded level 4 to Mao Asada in the FS, and her torso remains mostly upright throughout the entire step sequence. She has plenty of arm movement but she does not have as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Her and Yuna have around the same amount of upper body movement. Yet the tech panel awarded level 4 to Mao and level 3 to Yuna.

I would also add this: let's assume that the tech panel applied a very strict and narrow definition for fulfilling the upper body movement criteria at the Olympics FS and that justifiably Yuna was awarded level 3. That still does not justify Adelina Sotnikova's level 4 as it has been shown, step by step, definitively (without requiring on a strict and narrow interpretation of the rules) that she did not fulfill TWO of the four criteria for a level 4 step sequences. In fact, it would prove that the technical panel was very strict on Yuna fulfilling the requirement while being beyond lenient for Adelina--the generosity is excessive enough to doubt that the tech panel's intention was innocent. Adelina didn't receive a level 4 on her FS step sequence all season long--not even at her own Nationals. That's in 6 competitions, counting Japan Open, two GPs, GPF, Russian Nationals, and Europeans.



There is already plenty of evidence to cast aspersions on the tech panel even outside the step sequences--the missed flutz and UR of Adelina's 3Lz/3T. It all adds up.

Excellent points, jaylee.

 

[gmyers]

Oh god. Did they file the complain or not? Do they need help?

What everyone is here still talking about?

I thought they were totally committed to stripping Sotnikova of gold and getting it for Yuna!! After all the "analysis" by "non biased" people shows sotnikova was overscored to the extent that she robbed yuna.

 

[chalk5]

The judges seem to be very biased and even ********. She performed a TANGO a freaking TANGO. If they are judges, they should know that a Tango piece, and especially Adios Nonino, should have gotten Level 4 sequence. Yuna barely gets to rest, while others have many breaks in between before their jumps.

 

[Mathman]

I thought they were totally committed to stripping Sotnikova of gold and getting it for Yuna!!

I think they changed their minds and decided to let Adelina keep her medal after all.

 

[anyanka]

I think they changed their minds and decided to let Adelina keep her medal after all.

Or Yuna herself said "guys, let it go", then she sang her own version of the song (yes you can find her rendition on YouTube). Then she went back to counting the millions she's getting from All That Skate and her endorsement deals and generally having a great time in life.

 

[Miss Ice]

Or Yuna herself said "guys, let it go", then she sang her own version of the song (yes you can find her rendition on YouTube). Then she went back to counting the millions she's getting from All That Skate and her endorsement deals and generally having a great time in life.

Yep. Having a much better time and much more happy than some people who are biting their nails trying to mask their insecurities with arrogant interviews and countless reposts of their own skating on russian FB. *cough*

You have no idea why the tech panel awarded Yuna level 3. Actually, over the past 2 seasons, Yuna received a level 4 at least once at every competition, and sometimes twice (2013 Worlds, 2014 Korean Nationals). So what you're saying is not true--she didn't receive level 3 more often than level 4 for her step sequences. (And what do her spins have to do with it?)

The rule requirements are not that you do as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Completely irrelevant.



Gotcha. The tech panel at one competition might be more lenient with what fulfills the upper body movement than a tech panel at another competition. So that means that there is not a strict, narrow, and consistent interpretation of what the upper body criteria is, if tech panels at different competitions can disagree. Which means that your relentless arguments saying that Yuna definitely did not fulfill that requirements are not definitive or conclusive.

In addition, you refused to address my point that the tech panel at the same competition awarded level 4 to Mao Asada in the FS, and her torso remains mostly upright throughout the entire step sequence. She has plenty of arm movement but she does not have as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Her and Yuna have around the same amount of upper body movement. Yet the tech panel awarded level 4 to Mao and level 3 to Yuna.

I would also add this: let's assume that the tech panel applied a very strict and narrow definition for fulfilling the upper body movement criteria at the Olympics FS and that justifiably Yuna was awarded level 3. That still does not justify Adelina Sotnikova's level 4 as it has been shown, step by step, definitively (without requiring on a strict and narrow interpretation of the rules) that she did not fulfill TWO of the four criteria for a level 4 step sequences. In fact, it would prove that the technical panel was very strict on Yuna fulfilling the requirement while being beyond lenient for Adelina--the generosity is excessive enough to doubt that the tech panel's intention was innocent. Adelina didn't receive a level 4 on her FS step sequence all season long--not even at her own Nationals. That's in 6 competitions, counting Japan Open, two GPs, GPF, Russian Nationals, and Europeans.


There is already plenty of evidence to cast aspersions on the tech panel even outside the step sequences--the missed flutz and UR of Adelina's 3Lz/3T. It all adds up.

Excellent points indeed. Especially the part about her never having gotten a level 4 this season before Sochi (or maybe even ever? has she ever gotten a level 4 outside Nats?).

 

[cuon_alpinus]

Let's sign this people!!! impeach cinquanta !! https://www.change.org/fr/pétitions...ency-of-the-international-skating-union#share

 

[qwertyskates]

You have no idea why the tech panel awarded Yuna level 3. Actually, over the past 2 seasons, Yuna received a level 4 at least once at every competition, and sometimes twice (2013 Worlds, 2014 Korean Nationals). So what you're saying is not true--she didn't receive level 3 more often than level 4 for her step sequences. (And what do her spins have to do with it?)

The rule requirements are not that you do as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Completely irrelevant.



Gotcha. The tech panel at one competition might be more lenient with what fulfills the upper body movement than a tech panel at another competition. So that means that there is not a strict, narrow, and consistent interpretation of what the upper body criteria is, if tech panels at different competitions can disagree. Which means that your relentless arguments saying that Yuna definitely did not fulfill that requirements are not definitive or conclusive.

In addition, you refused to address my point that the tech panel at the same competition awarded level 4 to Mao Asada in the FS, and her torso remains mostly upright throughout the entire step sequence. She has plenty of arm movement but she does not have as much upper body movement as Carolina Kostner. Her and Yuna have around the same amount of upper body movement. Yet the tech panel awarded level 4 to Mao and level 3 to Yuna.

I would also add this: let's assume that the tech panel applied a very strict and narrow definition for fulfilling the upper body movement criteria at the Olympics FS and that justifiably Yuna was awarded level 3. That still does not justify Adelina Sotnikova's level 4 as it has been shown, step by step, definitively (without requiring on a strict and narrow interpretation of the rules) that she did not fulfill TWO of the four criteria for a level 4 step sequences. In fact, it would prove that the technical panel was very strict on Yuna fulfilling the requirement while being beyond lenient for Adelina--the generosity is excessive enough to doubt that the tech panel's intention was innocent. Adelina didn't receive a level 4 on her FS step sequence all season long--not even at her own Nationals. That's in 6 competitions, counting Japan Open, two GPs, GPF, Russian Nationals, and Europeans.



There is already plenty of evidence to cast aspersions on the tech panel even outside the step sequences--the missed flutz and UR of Adelina's 3Lz/3T. It all adds up.

Exactly, each competition judgment is unique and you can only compare within the framework. This Tech Panel at Sochi was very strict with the newer, younger skaters and quite lenient with the veterans. Actually, Yuna was gifted as generously for some URs on her jumps. If you want to pick on these moments of leniency then you should do it across all 3, not just for Adelina and Caro.

I'm going to look at Mao's stsq again to see if this were true. Mao often received Level 3s for her stsq too.

Edit: I took a long hard look, Mao's choreography is *very* similar to Adelina's, same opening, similar crescendo stq at the end, maybe it's the Tarasova effect. I have to say her stsq is spectacular, there's so much intricacy, speed, and many difficult turns seamlessly linked without long pauses, and a lot of one-foot skating. She skated lights out for that stsq. The key is challenging movements that make it difficult for a skater to keep her balance. While she didn't bend over forward and backward as often as Caro, she had distinct dips as well as leaning sideways for her turns, her "windmill" arms and torso were constantly creating challenges to her centre. That was a difficult and well-executed stsq, and I do agree it deserves Level 4. I'm not on Sochi's Tech Panel, so i can't say I know how they would judge, but I would take the entire stsq as a whole rather than the sum of its parts. So there's some leniency for some areas if others are performed to a really high standard, above what the minimum is called for in Level 4. Of all 4 top ladies', Yuna's stsq is visibly slower, less vigorous, though a pleasure to watch. Having judged the other 3, Tech Panel might find hers relatively simpler and less challenging to perform.

She didn't lose too many points for Level 3, and it's alright to me, the stsq kept to the languid tone of the choreography and music, and that is more important.

 

[jaylee]

Exactly, each competition judgment is unique and you can only compare within the framework. This Tech Panel at Sochi was very strict with the newer, younger skaters and quite lenient with the veterans. Actually, Yuna was gifted as generously for some URs on her jumps. If you want to pick on these moments of leniency then you should do it across all 3, not just for Adelina and Caro.

You're joking, right? And no, Yuna wasn't gifted on "some URs".

The key is challenging movements that make it difficult for a skater to keep her balance. While she didn't bend over forward and backward as often as Caro, she had distinct dips as well as leaning sideways for her turns, her "windmill" arms and torso were constantly creating challenges to her centre.

Way to obscure my point about Mao's step sequence. Your original point was that Yuna didn't bend over forward and backward like Caro, therefore Yuna didn't deserve level 4. My point was that Yuna didn't have to have as much upper body movement as Caro as long as she fulfilled the rules requirement--and that her upper body movement was quite similar to Mao's, who did get that feature as she got level 4.

Using YOUR standard, Mao's torso remains mostly upright throughout the majority of the sequence. Yes, she dips down a bit and has arm movement throughout--so does Yuna, though. They both do an illusion near the end. On a general level, that's why I'd say they have a comparable amount of upper body movement that affects the core of the body. It's just wrong for you to say Mao's arms and torso constantly created challenges to HER center whereas you have denied that Yuna's arm and torso movements did. It's like saying, "If skater X (Mao) did it, it's great; if skater Y (Yuna) does the same thing, it's bad." It's wrong for you to hold Yuna to the "Carolina Kostner upper body movement standard" while not holding Mao to the same.

That was a difficult and well-executed stsq, and I do agree it deserves Level 4. I'm not on Sochi's Tech Panel, so i can't say I know how they would judge, but I would take the entire stsq as a whole rather than the sum of its parts. So there's some leniency for some areas if others are performed to a really high standard, above what the minimum is called for in Level 4. Of all 4 top ladies', Yuna's stsq is visibly slower, less vigorous, though a pleasure to watch. Having judged the other 3, Tech Panel might find hers relatively simpler and less challenging to perform.

It's not the job of the tech panel to judge whether it was "relatively simpler", just if it met the requirements.

Anyway, the Sochi judging panel gave Yuna and Mao's step sequence the exact same GOE. What do you think of that?

 

[Rubirosa]

And no, Yuna wasn't gifted on "some URs".

Correct. She wasn't gifted. She was granted. Like she always was with her URs and lip edge calls.

For once we agree.

 

[Miss Ice]

Correct. She wasn't gifted. She was granted. Like she always was with her URs and lip edge calls.

For once we agree.

I disagree about UR's. I have watched MANY MANY of her performances and most of what you say is UR is just short of or less than 1/4 underrotated, which really is not a UR. And this doesn't happen frequently either.

 

[Rubirosa]

I disagree about UR's. I have watched MANY MANY of her performances and most of what you say is UR is just short of or less than 1/4 underrotated, which really is not a UR. And this doesn't happen frequently either.

We are not talking about MANY MANY. We are talking about Sochi performances. There Yuna was granted as many URs calls as Sotnikova was gifted. Plus edge calls.

As for the complain, it was farce from start. Koreans never planned to file any.

 

[MiRé]

We are not talking about MANY MANY. We are talking about Sochi performances. There Yuna was granted as many URs calls as Sotnikova was gifted. Plus edge calls.

As for the complain, it was farce from start. Koreans never planned to file any.

Do you even know what UR jumps are? I heard Youtube has slow playback option. Please, I beg you, find so-called "Many URs" in Yuna's program. Give specific evidence to show how she UR her jumps.

 

[Blades of Passion]

We are talking about Sochi performances. There Yuna was granted as many URs calls as Sotnikova was gifted. Plus edge calls.

Honey, no. If you're in the business of pulling rabbits out of hat you should take it to a dinner theater.

 

[cooper]