Terri Shivo

[elingrace4eva]

As far as I'm concerned, you choose your husband and you can't choose your parents. When she chose to marry him and remain married to him, she was giving him the right to decide her fate if it were ever to come to this. That's my moral stand on it.

Legall, the whole issue was decided in Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Dept. of Health in 1990. In the absence of a living will, parents do not have the right to decide the fate of their child. A marriage liscense qualifies as a living will in the case of a brain damaged spouse.

I know it's not an entirely legal issue, but I think that both morally and legally you can't justify not allowing her husband to decide for her.


And just for the record, for those claiming this is about Michael Shiavo wanting to get the money. If a court decides that Terri has the right to live, the government takes on the responsibilty of paying for the treatment. At the moment, I don't believe he is paying for it...though I could be wrong. Either way, he has no real financial gain...

 

[Grgranny]

I did hear one report that stated it was being paid for with the money they received in the suit and it was about to run out.

 

[sk8rmom]

Hello, and greetings to all at Golden Skate. Newbie here.

This is a subject that I identify with so much, as my mother was in a similar state to Terri after suffering a cardiac arrest. She was resusitated, but was left in a comatose, vegitative state.

It was so hard to watch her day after day in such a condition. Until you see a loved one like that, I'm not sure it's possible to really understand how little of the person you loved is left. Just the physical shell. That's all. None of their personality. Nothing that makes them who they were to you, or themself.

I know this is an emotional issue. But one thing I wanted to shout at the tv, when they were airing footage of people attempting to bring cups of water to her bedside...I know you mean well. But Terri does not possess the capability of swallowing. You cannot help her, as much as you would like to.

God knows I fel her parent's pain. But what quality of life does this woman have?? And for whom are the parents truly advocating? As much as I feel badly for having to say so, I truly think that it's for themselves. As a parent myself, I can think of no harder thing that to watch your child die. But is Terri herself cognitive of the fact that she's alive??

Without the initial medical intervention, we would not even be having this discussion, since Terri, like my mom, would have passed away quite quickly without paddles, respirators, intravenous antibiotics, and so on. This is not the same as denying a kidney patient dialysis. The dialysis provides that patient with an ability to have a reasonable quality of life. Insulin provides a diabetic the same thing. But the treatment that Terri and others in her state receive provide only maintenance on a completely incapacitated, non-improvable physical being. That is not the kind of life we wish for our children, or parents, or anyone.

I believe that Terri's soul has long ago been taken under wing. I really hope that all around her can achieve some level of peace about this soon. I think she'd like to see that.

 

[Tenorguy]

Terri -

I am sitting here listening to Terri's brother paint Michael out to be Scott Peterson.... DISGUSTING!

- Good Americans don't let people get railroaded

- Our culture is one based on the rule of law and due judicial process. These two tenets have kept the country on track - without them the United States can't possible "work".

- Terri's case has had full due process of the law, and per her hudband's claims she did not want to live this way. As her husband, and per scripture(!), he has the right in the eyes of Christian tradition to help decide her fate and interpret her wishes - the parents are no longer legal guardians. For those Christians ferverently praying for Terri, they should examine the early part of Genesis.

- Isn't it telling that there have been death threats agains Michael - that is not a sign of people defending or honoring life!

- Now some people are saying that Jeb Bush is a murderer..... OY VEY people.

- As a Christian, I pray for Terri's passing from this life to life in the next. Its sad, its depressing, but death is also a natural process.

Whew - thanks for letting me get that off my chest! I really struggled with all of this as many of you have as well. How can we sit and watch someone be starved to death. However, as citizens living in a complex society, we can't turn over our personal autonomy completely over to either the Federal or State government.
We must abide by the laws which we, as active citizens, have allowed to be enacted on our behalf. Without that, we will descend into chaos if we abandon the American Court system - amend laws at every whim, on and on.

Man, what great therapy! Tenorguy

 

[Doggygirl]

While I think that Terri should be allowed to die, I am do not agree with your statement above. There aer people whose lives are maintained through medication, dyalisis, etc whom we would never think of just allowing to die. The key here is consiousness and awareness. To all evidence, in Terri's case, there is none.

Here is the big difference with the examples you give. ALL of us have the right to refuse medical treatment for ourselves, while we are of sound mind to do so. So in the example of someone on kidney dialysis, that PERSON has the right to refuse treatment if they wish, and allow the disease to run it's course.

Living wills / trusts are so important because that is our avenue to refuse certain types of treatments for ourselves if we are not in a sound minded position to do so at a future time, like Terri. It's Terri's wishes that are in question since it wasn't in writing. That is the central issue in all this.

The media and political circus has turned this into a forum for special interest groups to voice their political positions. I sure hope my family never ends up in the middle of something like this.

DG

 

[Doggygirl]

Tenorguy...

I didn't read your post until after I make my last one. Just wanted to let you know that I agree with most of what you said, and especially that it seems therapeutic to post about this here. Sometimes putting a mixed bag of thoughts and emotions into writing really helps sort out the mixed bag.

DG

 

[StillBlueLake]

- As a Christian, I pray for Terri's passing from this life to life in the next. Its sad, its depressing, but death is also a natural process.

I agree with everything you said, but especially this. I believe that Terri is going to pass on and be with God, who can restore her fully.

 

[swannanoa54]

Without the initial medical intervention, we would not even be having this discussion, since Terri, like my mom, would have passed away quite quickly without paddles, respirators, intravenous antibiotics, and so on. This is not the same as denying a kidney patient dialysis. The dialysis provides that patient with an ability to have a reasonable quality of life. Insulin provides a diabetic the same thing. But the treatment that Terri and others in her state receive provide only maintenance on a completely incapacitated, non-improvable physical being. That is not the kind of life we wish for our children, or parents, or anyone.

Let me say, sk8rmom, welcome and I send you my sympathies in regards to your mother. With that said, I have to disagree with some of what you have stated.

This is simply not true of all brain injuries. At the time Terri's heart stopped and then was started 15 minutes later, her brain suffered irreparable damage. However, had this happened to her today, she may (or may not) have improved in significant ways. She may (or may not) be able to swallow. None of us knows that at all. To say that the treatment Terri receives in her state is only maintenance is accurate yet inaccurate. Terri doesn't receive "treatment". She is fed. She is fed like children who cannot eat are fed every day. She is not, nor has she ever been (except when her heart stopped) terminally ill or on death's door. Not in 15 years.

With that being said, I agree with most of what you have stated. I feel so badly for Terri's parents and her husband. They didn't get to see that. But you don't know if Terri isn't tracking or not. We aren't there. I can only know that it's time to let her be at peace.

But sk8rmom, I do send you a hug through cyberspace. If anything this will make all of us realize we need to make our wishes known in writing.

 

[CzarinaAnya]

When Terri would go to work, her co-workers would always ask why she had bruises on her, and she would say she just bumped into something. Pretty fishy, eh? Sounds like an abused woman. and when she was in the hospital, they found that she had broken bones.

Terri is pretty much in the state of Cerebral Palsy. She can breathe on her own. If she were brain dead, then she wouldn't be able to breathe on her own, she'd have been on an oxygen device. If they were actually "pulling the plug" on her, she would have been dead in minutes.
We all need food to survive. What if I was a quadraplegic and someone took my feeding tube away from me? There'd be nothing I could do.

My cousin had cerebral palsy, and is now passed away. She was born that way, but it caused by lack of oxygen to the brain for a long amount of time. My cousin never "recovered" from CP, the way they say Terri will never recover , and that is no reason to starve someone.

And when Michael Schiavo says that this is what Terri would have wanted, THAT IS HEARSAY, aaaaand is 100% ILLEGAL to take into account in a court of law.

 

[Vash01]

I don't understand why the husband is trying to kill her. He is happily living with another woman, and they have a full life with a child (children?). Why not let the parents take care of the poor disabled woman, if they are willing to? She still has life. It is cruel to starve her to death. Which parent will want to see his/her child tortured like this? It is a terrible life but it still is life. If she herself wanted to end it, that's another matter, but to get courts involved in an emotional issue like this one is plain wrong. Someone needs to feel compassion for her parents, her brother, and people that really care for her. I was shocked to hear that her husband wanted her cremated, instead of giving her the Catholic burial, which is in line with her upbringing. That, to me, is not a sign of caring. Just because she married him does not give him the right to make all decisions for her, particularly if he has a life with someone else. Why did he not divorce her? Is he paying for the costs and wants to be free in that respect? He could ask her parents to assume the costs if that is an issue. I don't see why a family cannot work out differences.

Giving up on a child who is in a vegetative state must be incredibly difficult for parents. If they reach that stage, so be it. If they want to do whatever they can for their daughter and it does not affect the husband's current life, I don't understand why they cannot be allowed to look after her. Removing the feeding tubes against their wishes is incredibly cruel and unnecessary. This woman cannot defend herself, verbally or physically. Does that mean she should be killed? It does not sound right.

That's just how I see it.

Vash

 

[StillBlueLake]

And when Michael Schiavo says that this is what Terri would have wanted, THAT IS HEARSAY, aaaaand is 100% ILLEGAL to take into account in a court of law.

In a criminal trial it is, but this was not a criminal trial. Unless you think you know the law better than the judge. :sheesh: Also, Michael's statements were corroborated by others.

Terri is pretty much in the state of Cerebral Palsy.

Ah no, two seconds of research on Google proves your statement wrong.

http://www.about-cerebral-palsy.org/definition/index.html

Cerebral palsy results in movement problems that are from brain damage. However, people with CP do not lack a functioning cerebral cortex, which is what happened to Terri.

I am getting pretty sick of people saying all this crap about her husband. Talk about heresay! You won't believe statements that a COURT found to be credible, but you'll believe crap from the right wing that cruelly slanders her husband?

The husband has stated again and again that he is trying to do what Terri would have wanted. Courts have found this to be credible. It's NOT about what her parents would have wanted. It's NOT about what her husband would have wanted. It's about what TERRI would have wanted. It's about TERRI'S DIGNITY. All we have in this country is the law...it is the basis of our society. And the LAW determined that Terri would want to cease life prolonging care.

 

[Doggygirl]

The husband has stated again and again that he is trying to do what Terri would have wanted. Courts have found this to be credible. It's NOT about what her parents would have wanted. It's NOT about what her husband would have wanted. It's about what TERRI would have wanted. It's about TERRI'S DIGNITY. All we have in this country is the law...it is the basis of our society. And the LAW determined that Terri would want to cease life prolonging care.

Correct. And as sad as this situation is, we need to all remember it's been going on for YEARS. Whatever we are seeing on the news right now in the media circus can in NO way be 100% of all that has gone on between the husband and parents over what...15 years?? I would guess we all know less than 10% (probably FAR less than 10%) of the facts. As this case has been reviewed by a number of judges at this point, I have to believe the judges have done their best to evaluate all of the relevant facts to determine Terri's wishes.

I think we should also bear in mind that Michael is staying out of the media lime light. Terri's parents are trying to use the media and the public sympathy to get what they want. While I personally wouldn't ever want my parents or husband to be in either situation, it's not surprising that Michael is getting demonized in this, since we are hearing what the parents choose to say, and very little from Michael's side of things.

I just pray that this ends soon and that somehow, these poor people can all find some peace.

DG

 

[elingrace4eva]

And when Michael Schiavo says that this is what Terri would have wanted, THAT IS HEARSAY, aaaaand is 100% ILLEGAL to take into account in a court of law.

First of all, like someone above said, this isn't a criminal trial, so this is completely irrelevant. Also, a marriage certificate is LEGALLY a living will, so it is completely legal, as of this point, for Michael Schiavo to make such a decision. You should check out the legality of the issue before making such grandiose statements.

 

[Vash01]

I think the real problem is that Terri is NOT unconcious. Even in the state she is in with severe brain damage, she is awake and it appears anyway that she responds in small ways to various stimulous. Pulling her feeding tube = starving a brain damaged, but CONSCIOUS person to death. Can you imagine if anyone ever suggested starvation as a good way to implement capital punishment??? My God the rioting would start, and rightly so. (I personally am opposed to capital punishment, but at least a lethal injection seems preferable to starvation of all things).

I will say again that the MOST unfortunate part of this is that Terri's own wishes for herself in this situation are unclear. If you haven't already done a living trust or will, DO IT NOW so that your own wishes under these types of circumstances are clear. Personally, I would choose starvation rather than living for years in such a state that has torn apart this family. (and while there's a lot of description based on circumstances, I HAVE made my own wishes clear, in writing, with the lawyers that within the parameters I've defined, I choose no life support, which would include a feeding tube even in Terri's exact case.) What I have chosen doesn't mean it's what Terri or anybody else would choose. It's a very individual and thought provoking discussion / decision.

There is another option that I WISH, WISH, WISH was an available option legally, for those of us who decide to make the choice legally, in writing, in advance. Humane euthanasia. If it's good enough for Death Row, why can't I make that choice for myself???? Of course for many people, this sort of thing raises religious concerns, etc. BUT...if each person were allowed to choose at an appropriate time when you are of legally sound mind, then people can abide by whatever religious or other beliefs they have on an individual basis.

As most of you already know, I love my dogs like my children. Life and death decisions for them are heart breaking, and I've gone through it several times now. I'm so glad to have the comfort of knowing, that at least for my dogs, if they were in Terri's shoes - in an unrecoverable state with life being sustained by a feeding tube - they have a much better option than starvation to end it all.

Sorry to sound like such a broken record, but this brings out a lot of passion in me too. I was at a business meeting this morning - it's basically a business referral group where about 20 of us get together every week representing different types of local businesses. One of the guys in the group is an attorney who does trust / estate work in addition to some other legal things. I actually gave a "commercial" for him today. In light of this Terri situation I urged that ANYONE in the room who does not yet have a living trust or will that clearly defines how life support should be handled SEE HIM SOON!!

So at least you all have the comfort of knowing you are not the only audience I'm carping at.

Thanks for listening..

DG

DG,

Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I have often thought that (speaking for myself ONLY) I would not want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, but I never put it in writing. Now I know that I have to do that because we don't know when catastrophy could strike. Terri was young and happily married when this terrible thing happened to her. I think going through an attorney to make a living trust (or is is called 'will') costs a lot of money. I hope there is software available. I do have the software for a will, but I don't know if it includes situations like this one. Can you advise me (and others that don't know) about what is the best way to do this? It sounds like you covered all kinds of situations and that's what I would like to do, so that my family does not have to make that painful decision for me.

Vash

 

[Vash01]

There are so many touching stories from many posters here; my heart goes out to all of you. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have learned something from it and will take the appropriate steps for the future.

It does not change my stance that Terri is a living being and should not be killed of starvation. That is extremely cruel. I am not convinced that her husband has her best interests in mind, particularly if he is keeping a part of the money he received to take care of her. If money is not an issue, I don't see why he is involved at all, if her parents want to take care of her. It may be best for everyone to let go, and let her go, but why must it be forced to happen NOW?

Vash

 

[Piel]

I have had advance directives, a living will, medical power of attorney in place for quite a while now. The first knee jerk reaction is no way would I want to be kept alive if I couldn't function in my normal capacity. But.... as my illness has progressed I find that I am willing to settle for the modifications and limitations that previously would have been totally unacceptable to me. So now I am reconsidering my options. I am no longer sure if it came to the point that I couldn't do anything for myself and had to be kept alive with a feeding tube that I would want to die. If I could still recognize my loved ones presence in the room I am not sure I would be willing to give that up even if I couldn't communicate with them.

 

[Doggygirl]

DG,

Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I have often thought that (speaking for myself ONLY) I would not want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, but I never put it in writing. Now I know that I have to do that because we don't know when catastrophy could strike. Terri was young and happily married when this terrible thing happened to her. I think going through an attorney to make a living trust (or is is called 'will') costs a lot of money. I hope there is software available. I do have the software for a will, but I don't know if it includes situations like this one. Can you advise me (and others that don't know) about what is the best way to do this? It sounds like you covered all kinds of situations and that's what I would like to do, so that my family does not have to make that painful decision for me.

Vash

Vash, IMO you are wise to take this seriously in the interest of your own family. I am not a lawyer, and am not an expert by any means. After reading your post, I did send an e-mail to my lawyer friend who is part of the "business referral group" that I previously mentioned. I asked him specifically about the best way someone could execute a Living Will targeted specifically to this topic (not a Trust, or more complex type things) where it should "stick" legally. I'm sure he will get back to me, and I will post his advice once I hear from him.

I am not surprised that Terri and Michael may never have talked about this issue. (and IMO, only the judges have heard everything about this!) Heck, they were in their 20's when this happened!! I sure wasn't thinking about these things in my own 20's. But one never knows where life will lead. I wish my own parents would have advised me on these matters before I was in my 20's. (my own Mom didn't even tell me what a menstrual cycle was, or what to expect, so back in those days things were very backwards IMO - I thought at 15 I was bleeding to death!) ALL parents - please help advise your young adult children about the importance of these considerations, no matter how young and invincible they are!! Especially when they reach the age of adulthood, and when they marry.

Sorry this is getting so long Vash. I will get back to you with more professional and experienced advice when I have some. BUT...I have to think that ANYTHING you put in writing is better than having nothing in writintg. A pre-printed form from a source that seems reputable FOR YOUR STATE (this is a state thing!) would IMO be better than nothing. I would provide notarized copies to a few different people you can trust. And as hard as this sounds, if your parents are still living make it clear to THEM, only second to your spouse, what you really want. Even verbally, but better in writing.

I will try to provide as much valid info as I can (from lawyers) in case it helps.

DG

 

[Vash01]

Thanks DG! I will at least write down a note and place it near my living will. I did make one because my brother said he and his wife made theirs after a friend of theirs - in her 30's- died of breast cancer. Actually my parents had made the suggestion for a living will prior to that.

I am thinking that there may be a form that could be signed and notarized. Even if it is not complex enough to cover all possibilities (like an attorney would).

Vash

 

[Doggygirl]

There are so many touching stories from many posters here; my heart goes out to all of you. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have learned something from it and will take the appropriate steps for the future.

It does not change my stance that Terri is a living being and should not be killed of starvation. That is extremely cruel. I am not convinced that her husband has her best interests in mind, particularly if he is keeping a part of the money he received to take care of her. If money is not an issue, I don't see why he is involved at all, if her parents want to take care of her. It may be best for everyone to let go, and let her go, but why must it be forced to happen NOW?

Vash

The central legal question is not what Terri's husband wants, or what Terri's parents want. It's what Terri wants. The clearer we all make this, the easier it will be for husbands / spouses first and foremost (as primary legal guardians under the law) and even parents or other relatives should this type of situation befall any of us.

Piel, I am very sorry to hear that you are suffering from something that sounds horrible. None of us can fully understand a situation we haven't been in ourselves. I hope that as your own condition changes, which I can definitely see could change your mind about these kinds of matters - I hope you have someone by your side that you can trust who is helping you record any changes.

The worst thing to me about Terri's situation is what this is obviously doing to her family. I think of my husband Gary, and my Mom & Dad Weldon & Dorothy - all still alive today. If I were lying in Terri's bed, I would NEVER want my husband and my parents to go through this sort of fight over me, especially since it's very questionable that I would even have a minimal awareness of ANYTHING around me.

A side comment about the possible suffering of starvation. I think many people. MANY MANY people exercise their personal right to refuse medical treatment in situations of terminal illness, where they are chosing to die in the natural progression of their illness, who suffer far more pain for a much longer period of time than Terri will suffer. And since 20+ courts have determined that based on the evidence presented, this is more likely what Terri would have chosen for herself than the other way around.

Sorry... I know I'm overly passionate on this.

DG

 

[Yazmeen]

I have read the comments here with interest. I also wonder if some of the posters here who seem very against Michael Schiavo fully read the document kindly provided at the beginning of this thread, that outlined therapy he aggressively sought out for Terri, including even an experimental brain implant. This is highly emotionally charged case, and on both sides, a lot of assumptions are being made that may not be accurate.

I speak in my role as a physician when I state that there will be no miracles for Terri Schiavo. The initial insult to her brain was massive and severe, and unlike a traumatic brain injury, where brain cells may have the opportunity to heal and recover, her cerebral cortex was starved of life sustaining blood and oxygen for too long a period of time, and the cells died. Unfortunately, back then we did not have the "clotbusters" and other drugs and procedures we have now for immediate brain attack (Stroke) therapy. Had they been in existence with very quick emergency response back in 1990, Terri might have had a different outcome. Her brain cortex is dead and somewhat liquefied as the Guardian document states, and as such, no recovery is possible. Scientific research hasn't managed to revive dead brain tissue like this at any level, animal or human.

I found it especially distressing to read in that document how removed from reality her parents really are, where they would insist on having everything done for her, surgical or otherwise as her condition deteriorated. It is highly doubtful any surgeon would be wiling to perform risky procedures on a patient in Terri's condition with no hope of meaningful recovery.

One other issue that must be addressed, as upsetting as it may sound to some of you, is the question wheter doing everything for Terri is proper utilization of medical resources. I find it highly disengenous that the same politicians who cut Medicare and Medicaid funding and turn a blind eye to providing health care to poor children and the functioning elderly now insist that "everything" must be done for Terri Schiavo. Similarly, they crow about how the "sanctity of marriage" must always be preserved...except in this case.

There are no easy answers here, but one thing is certain from a medical standpoint. Terri will not recover any more function than she has now, and I personally agree with her husband's decision. In my medical experience also, the wishes of the spouse ALWAYS override that of the children, parents or other friends or relatives unless another guardian has been appointed by the patient. And the most important take home point from this case is to make sure you intentions are KNOWN to your loved ones. A living will/advanced directive is now requested with any hospitalization and its a very good idea to have one, at any age. It can save the heartache you are seeing with this case.