The Tight Competitions at the Olys

[nymkfan51]

Cohen will most likely win the national title next season. She can now afford a small mistake or two and still win. She'll establish her as the #1 American in Turino.

I hope more people have this opinion going into Nationals.
We shall just see what happens.

 

[janetb]

I do and very often! I think his presentation scores have always (even under 6.0) been totally over inflated - his style, as i said before, leaves me cold and i wouldn't call what he does choreography....i'm willing to back down somewhat since i've heard people with similar attitudes to my own see him live and say that his command of the ice and security on his edges changed that for them. Ant

To me there are two parts to chorography, the element layout and how it fit the music and PLushenko does nether well if you look at this post I wrote on the ISU board you get a good explination of what I think

EP chorography

But at worlds i think that would have been totally justified - Joannie had three falls that totally and utterly disrupted the program. I don't doubt that her basics are better usually but after that fall just doing cross overs the marks for basic skating go out of the window, plus she was clearly shaken by that fall and didn't sell the program at all in teh way she was apparently doing so earlier on in the season.Ant

I agree with you about the long program but in the short and qualifing to me at least she was heads and shoulders better than Miki

Some people do but a lot do not. MIchelle and Irina are my favourite skaters. As has already been said i don't disagree with Irina having won the comeptitions she did from last season (except Euroepans which i thought was scandalous) and i think she is a fantastic skater. My issue is with the Judges not giving +GOEs to many other skaters and certainyl not any higher than +1 when i don't think Irina is so much more deserving than other skaters of getting higher GOEs.

Ant

Take a look at the proticals you can down load them from the ISu and you will see that for jumps she rarely gets more than a 1+, very occasionally a 2+ and only once did I see a 3+

 

[curious]

another thread to remind us that those evil russians are going to be held up unbelievable

 

[Mathman]

I think (Plushenko's) presentation scores have always (even under 6.0) been totally over inflated - his style, as i said before, leaves me cold and i wouldn't call what he does choreography....i'm willing to back down somewhat since i've heard people with similar attitudes to my own see him live and say that his command of the ice and security on his edges changed that for them.

Count me in with the "see him live!" crowd. I have had a chance to see him compete in the Marshall's Invitational in Detroit three times. When Evgeni takes the ice, he is a man among boys. (Plus he seems really nice, which ought to be worth a couple fractions of a point in the PCS scores right there. .)

To me, the same is true of Irina. Michelle is my favorite and I always hope that she will do well. But the two times I saw her and Irina compete head to head, Irina was the clear winner.

I don't think it is either jealousy on the part Kwan fans or anti-Russian sentiment in the U.S. that drives criticism of Irina. I think her biggest problem is that the things she does well do not show up on television, while that medium exaggerates her flaws. On TV, you rarely get a chance to see the skaters edges, and you can't judge the power of their stroke, their speed, or their coverage of the ice. These are areas that Irina excels at.

In contrast, Sasha is a made-for-TV skater. Above the ankles, she is just a gorgeous performer. If you only saw them on TV, you might well be willing to forgive Sasha an occasional slip, while wondering what it is the judges are seeing in Irina to justify such high marks.

Even on the issue of using the PCS scores to "hold up" skaters, I think there is another side to the story. To me, the best skaters really are the best skaters. Even when the top skaters make glaring miscues, still, the overall quality of their skating can legitimately put them ahead of their less accomplished competitors.

Plus, there has to be a place where the judges can reward the "total package" performance that is better than the sum of its parts. When a skater can hold the attention of both the audience and the judges, play our emotions like a violin, and leave us shouting, cheering, laughing and crying all at the same time (example -- Shen and Zhou's Turando at the 2003 Worlds) -- that has to count for something.

Mathman

 

[janetb]

Mathman,

In general I have no problem with E.P. winning (yes I have seen him live) because he is that good. I don't partularlly favour his style, he is too bombastic for me (I hate the program sex bomb with a passon and if I see it or the big head one again I think I'm going to toss my cookies) Within the TSS scores there should be no problem with him getting 8+ in skating skills but 6 in chography because he does have real problems in area. A well layout program that fits the music should get more points than one which is heavilly front loaded and that has lots of posing, after all the first is more difficult to skate and requires more from the skater than series of jumps strung together. As for getting nice points Eman, Jeff and Stephan are all really nice shouldn't we give them nice points to.

Janet

 

[Mathman]

As for getting nice points Eman, Jeff and Stephan are all really nice shouldn't we give them nice points to.

Yes, especially Jeff! Also Aaron Parcham!

You don't like the Big Head? The Big Head

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I feel that much of the time Irena gets more than her fair share of the criticism because she has won so many competitions over Michelle Kwan and is currently a favorite for the Ladies Gold while MK isn’t.

I am not a fan of Irina. I do not find her skating appealing, but I stick up for her when I think she should win but I don't always agree that she should. And I don't think there were so many competitions that Irina won over Michelle. Irina was also the favorite in SLC along with MK and Sasha. Figure that one out. Indeed, Irina is the odds on favorite to win the Olys. I don't think many fans are concerend about that. I kind of like it - an older gal winning, for a change.

It's also a cultural thing and MM would not support that.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

another thread to remind us that those evil russians are going to be held up unbelievable

I've never said "the evil russians" and i don't hold that opinion. I do believe individuals are held up and its usually more to do with their past performances/world rankings. For this Olympic season i believe that Pluschenko and Slutskaya will be held up as they mostly were last season (and Pluschenko the season before as well). I think Michelle has had her fair share of being held up at times over the years based on her previsou performances but that trend is slowly fading now as fr as international competitions go.

Ant

 

[jesslily]

I agree with Antmanb.

 

[antmanb]

Count me in with the "see him live!" crowd. I have had a chance to see him compete in the Marshall's Invitational in Detroit three times. When Evgeni takes the ice, he is a man among boys. (Plus he seems really nice, which ought to be worth a couple fractions of a point in the PCS scores right there. .)

Which is why i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Kulik's skating never really grabbed me on TV but i've seen him sakte once live and his edges and speed were truly breathtaking. B&S i have always loved watching on TV and i got to see their Chaplin Exhibition number from around 2002 live and it literally moved me to tears - their unison and speed are amazing live.

I don't think it is either jealousy on the part Kwan fans or anti-Russian sentiment in the U.S. that drives criticism of Irina. I think her biggest problem is that the things she does well do not show up on television, while that medium exaggerates her flaws. On TV, you rarely get a chance to see the skaters edges, and you can't judge the power of their stroke, their speed, or their coverage of the ice. These are areas that Irina excels at.

In contrast, Sasha is a made-for-TV skater. Above the ankles, she is just a gorgeous performer. If you only saw them on TV, you might well be willing to forgive Sasha an occasional slip, while wondering what it is the judges are seeing in Irina to justify such high marks.

I've never had the chance to see Irina live and don't doubt it highlights her strengths. I have seen sasha skate live once and was truly unimpressed. I've never been a particular fan and find the extreme stretch position uncomfrotable to look at. When i saw her live i could see her wobbly edges and she was noticeably slower than all the other skaters, but again this was in 2002 and i can see from TV that she's made many imporvements.

Ant

 

[curious]

I've never said "the evil russians" and i don't hold that opinion. I do believe individuals are held up and its usually more to do with their past performances/world rankings. For this Olympic season i believe that Pluschenko and Slutskaya will be held up as they mostly were last season (and Pluschenko the season before as well). I think Michelle has had her fair share of being held up at times over the years based on her previsou performances but that trend is slowly fading now as fr as international competitions go.

Ant

I won't waste my time discussing certain things here,but to say plushy was mostly held up last year when he was the best skater with the only perfect performance at cup of china is ridiculous. of course michell has not been held up since salt lake right? whatever,

 

[antmanb]

I won't waste my time discussing certain things here,but to say plushy was mostly held up last year when he was the best skater with the only perfect performance at cup of china is ridiculous. of course michell has not been held up since salt lake right? whatever,

Well you did waste your time! I never mentioned cup of russia i blanketly said last season and the one before - meaning at some point over those seasons i feel that he's been held up, i mentioned no specific compeitions. The competitions i was thinking of specifcally for Plushy were '04 worlds and europeans - i forget which one it was that he fell a couple of times and singled an axel and still got something ludicrous like a silver medal when he should have been dumped off the podium with a performance like that.

Sadly you also appear to be blind and/or illiterate since my post replying to yours said i thought Michelle has also been held up on the basis of previous performance/world rakings...which part of that statement don't you understand???

Ant

 

[merrywidow]

I think both the mens & ladies will be exciting at the '06 Olympics. The competition for the medals in mens is too hard to predict. I'll go out on an early limb & say the Gold medal won't be won by a Russian male. I think that both Plushenko & Klimkin will be hampered either by past or new injuries. Beyond that I can't begin to guess...could be Lambiel, Joubert, Li, Sandhu, Buttle, Weir, Lysacek, Goebel. Healthy is the answer to who will win.
I notice a distinct lack of interest in the teenaged Ladies. It's been a teenager who has won the last 3 Olympic golds. I believe it will be someone about 18 yrs old who will win it next year. Kostner? Rochette? Ando? Meissner? Liang? Someone we aren't even aware of as yet?
Guessing/predicting is fun but we are all free to change our minds between now & next February. Lighten up, people!!

 

[janetb]

Yes, especially Jeff! Also Aaron Parcham!

You don't like the Big Head? The Big Head

MM

yeah I really can't stand it

 

[curious]

Well you did waste your time! I never mentioned cup of russia i blanketly said last season and the one before - meaning at some point over those seasons i feel that he's been held up, i mentioned no specific compeitions. The competitions i was thinking of specifcally for Plushy were '04 worlds and europeans - i forget which one it was that he fell a couple of times and singled an axel and still got something ludicrous like a silver medal when he should have been dumped off the podium with a performance like that.

Sadly you also appear to be blind and/or illiterate since my post replying to yours said i thought Michelle has also been held up on the basis of previous performance/world rakings...which part of that statement don't you understand???

Ant

2004 worlds? an injured plushy giving a fabulous performance under huge pressure after watching five great skates that's the reason he is the best

 

[Doggygirl]

A few thoughts...

This is lining up to be a very exciting Oly year!!

I am most excited about the Men's and Ladies events, but I think I give a slight edge to the Men's. What I'm about to say is a very broad generalization, but under 6.0 the Men's event in particular seemed to be much more of a jumping contest only. While I'm sure there have been examples of a 2 quad program beating a 1 quad program, etc., I think for the most part you could probably evaluate jump content to determine the podium.

While jumps are still important, and barring a complete meltdown I think the Men's Oly podium will consist of quaded men, IMO the competition has become more interesting as non-jump qualities have moved up in their importance.

I love all the varieties of styles that have emerged. Plush, Lambiel, Buttle, Weir E-man, etc. all have their unique styles and strengths. To me that makes for interesting competition to watch regardless of the outcome, or the mistakes, etc.

Of course lots could happen in the Ladies and therefore, no early predictions from me in any division!!

The pairs will also be exciting to watch as always. The Russia China Showdown.

So much of Dance still seems pre-determined to me which makes it less fun to watch. But...I'm willing to be "re-sold" by the Dance enthusiasts if any of you care to try!

DG

 

[gkelly]

So much of Dance still seems pre-determined to me which makes it less fun to watch. But...I'm willing to be "re-sold" by the Dance enthusiasts if any of you care to try!
DG

Well, I think we all know who are the heavy favorites for gold, but who do you think are predetermined to win silver and bronze?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Short: magnificent best she ever skated this program, clean as a whistle

Except for the travels on all of the spins and the break between the steps and the flip...

 

[Doggygirl]

Well, I think we all know who are the heavy favorites for gold, but who do you think are predetermined to win silver and bronze?

My feeling is that the World's podium is it. (assuming B&A's citizen issues resolve - otherwise #4 moves up).

I really don't like feeling this way about dance, and I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. I guess I'll have to wait for the season to begin to see if any surprises are in store!!

DG

 

[janetb]

Except for the travels on all of the spins and the break between the steps and the flip...

okay which lady out there doesn't have a break between the steps and the jump in short program, this is an endemic problem and the few that don't have it (joannie rocette) don't get rewarded