This and That: 2015 Skate Canada Recap

[hurrah]

Regarding the skating skills question - we all seem to agree that Chan has the better skating skills.
Now I wonder wether it's possible for Hanyu to have the skating skills Chan has without gaining muscles. What do you think? And if Hanyu would decide to bulk up, would he get problems with his quads? He might lose rotational speed. :think:

Yeah, that's a really interesting question, cause Patrick has come back with more muscle, and Hanyu is still very thin, especially upper body. Having a bigger body appears to have made Patrick's quad toe bigger and better, not to mention improve his skating stability. Maybe Hanyu could try muscling up?

 

[Botan]

I'd love to see Johnathan Bayer ( sp?) on This and That again, I loved his enthusiasm for skating and his sense of humor.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't post on FSU.

That place is the imdb message boards of figure skating. Avoid.

Also, my username is 1 character too long there. So, like, screw it forever!

 

[kiara_bleu]

Yeah, that's a really interesting question, cause Patrick has come back with more muscle, and Hanyu is still very thin, especially upper body. Having a bigger body appears to have made Patrick's quad toe bigger and better, not to mention improve his skating stability. Maybe Hanyu could try muscling up?

I think if Hanyu fills out and gains some muscle it might also help with his stamina. Hanyu might be the type that is just naturally skinny like that but he is relatively young so he might still have some maturing left body-wise in the next few years.

 

[MIM]

Welcome Dave! I love to listen to your recaps and interviews. Thank you for doing that and I believe it is always good for the sports!
Recently, I feel your show has been changed the tone since you guys got more involved with the skaters and coaches personally- warm and understanding, i guess?

Anyways, I agree with you and Jenny about everything you said on Max in the SA recap. Watch out your underwear!
And Maia is just beautiful as she is. I like them especially because their skating reflects their personality in the ice-calm, gentle, yet fierce in twizzle. And the music really helps them.

Who was your best dressed?

I have to say "MICHAL!"

What was your moment of the week?

Chan's LP

Who has better skating skills, Hanyu or Chan?

Chan.

What would it take for the judges to allow the Shibutanis to win U.S. Nationals?

Miracle.

Do Maia and Dice need to give more facial expressions?

Dice might, though... First, he has to get rid of grinning at the judges.

Regarding the skating skills question - we all seem to agree that Chan has the better skating skills.
Now I wonder wether it's possible for Hanyu to have the skating skills Chan has without gaining muscles. What do you think? And if Hanyu would decide to bulk up, would he get problems with his quads? He might lose rotational speed. :think:

I think it is always possible without changing his body type entirely. He can work on core muscle. His skating skill has improved a lot though. I think skating skill has to do with a muscle memory. He just needs more time and efforts.

 

[kiches]

On the Hanyu and Chan skating skills question I think Patrick is the winner, but I do wonder something.

I remember in the TSL interview with Shae-Lynn she described Hanyu as "alien" and that he moves differently in the world. Kurt Browning said something a bit similar during his podcast with PJ Kwong after GPF 2014 (where Kurt's "jumps that fall from heaven comment" happened during broadcast). This is what he said when PJ asked him about Yuzuru's feet.

I don't understand Yuzu's feet. Patrick Chan, from Canada, I can get Patrick. I can get his power and understand- sometimes he gets power from moves that I'm amazed at, but I can understand it because I can see it happening. And truly, Christopher Dean, I mean there's very few skaters in the world that I would compare to Patrick Chan, VERY few. But Yuzuru Hanyu is, in his own tiny little way, special as well, in that he gets power and speed- power... You know what? I wouldn't use power. He's just fleet to foot, and he... You know, Scott Hamilton always scitters like a waterbug across the ice, but you can see it happening. I don't know how Yuzu does it. He has like this way of just gaining speed and momentum and power but, he's special, he's just very special. And I think that he is, someone today said that he is custom built for jumping.


After that Kurt gushes about the jumps for a while and at then likens Yuzuru's jumps to Baryshnikov. He said it's like Baryshnikov, when he jumps, it's just different.

Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough about the mechanics of skating to even begin to understand what Kurt and even Shae-Lynn might have been trying to say about Yuzuru's skating (if anyone wants to try explaining it, please do), but to me it sounds like they say he has very good skating skills, but that they're different from someone like Patrick. Whether or not one could skate like the other with enough practice, I don't know and I don't think I wouldn't want them to.

 

[burntBREAD]

Don't know if anyone addressed Ashley's arm movements at the beginning of the program -- the piece in the first part of the program is from a Bollywood performance that the characters in Moulin Rouge are performing in, I think it's called Hindi Sad Diamonds? Thus the "prayer-like" movements.

 

[moriel]

Yeah, that's a really interesting question, cause Patrick has come back with more muscle, and Hanyu is still very thin, especially upper body. Having a bigger body appears to have made Patrick's quad toe bigger and better, not to mention improve his skating stability. Maybe Hanyu could try muscling up?

I actually wonder how possible that would be - as it depends a lot of the body type and not everybody can just muscle up.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Of course, Patrick's skating looks more definitive because he's bigger. I feel if Yuzu "bulked up" with muscle, his typically pristine jumps - and spins - would go down the drain.

I've never been that much of an Ashley fan but I was pleasantly surprised at her short program. I liked it, and the hand movements as well. Hopefully she "sticks to the plan" and keeps at it because this is a girl that can do it.

 

[Barb]

Thanks to Jenny and you Dave, I love TSL.

Who was your best dressed?
Marissa C.

What was your moment of the week?
Shibs FD, wonderful.

Who has better skating skills, Hanyu or Chan?
Chan, no doubt.

What would it take for the judges to allow the Shibutanis to win U.S. Nationals?
To be extraordinary, which is unfair because C/B just need to be good or average.

Do Maia and Dice need to give more facial expressions?
Dice yes, Maia needs do it in the correct moment, somtimes she smile too much.

 

[Interspectator]

Some previous posts have been moved to the SC Gala thread, back on topic, Best dressed for me was Kanako Murakami!
Looove her blue Sayuri dress. Illusion mesh needs to match her skin, but other than that, it was gorgeous.
Also liked Ashely's borrowed dress...much better than the red, gave her program much more subtlety. Bombastic choreo, demure dress. -Good combo.

 

[xibsuarz]

To bring this back on topic, Best dressed for me was Kanako Murakami!
Looove her blue Sayuri dress. Illusion mesh needs to match her skin, but other than that, it was gorgeous.
Also liked Ashely's borrowed dress...much better than the red, gave her program much more subtlety. Bombastic choreo, demure dress. -Good combo.

Kanako's dress was beautiful, her smile after she had ended was the cutest thing, and I really like the matching hair clip (she's rocking that short hair)
ITA about Ashley's dress, her red hair clashed with her previous red dress, this white dress worked so much better! And the details on the neck were very pretty :yes:

 

[Tex]

Who was your best dressed?
Ashley's white dress, Vera's and Andrei's matching blues in the Short program, & Kaitlyn's Pearl SD dress and Andrew's Viscount SD suit

Do Maia and Dice need to give more facial expressions?
Yes and really feeling the music and skating more freely and not so controlled emotion wise

 

[koatcue]

Extreme? No. Real? Ok, let's be real. Liza's been around in the senior circuit how long? I'm not a fan but I have already said she's a great jumper and that deserves all the credit. However, she has been skating the same way since her debut in 2011 and aesthetically it has only gone downhill from there. Her posture never improved, her lines are awful, her flexibility is poor and her musicality is questionable. She has her own artistry, and though polarising, at least she has that going for her.

Those things are plain obvious. Skaters like Yuka, Satoko, Ashley, Evgenia have those aspects of their skating down to a pat and if you put them side by side with Tuk, the differences are glaring. But then they work on that probably because they know that someone will always be better on the technical side. Who knows. I don't get that from Liza, and I never have.

However, we do know that she's fast, she at least has charisma when the vehicle works for her, she's a terrific jumper, she has great stamina (as we saw last season) and she has focus. All the things that clearly worked in her favour, hence why she became a WC.

I think that's a fair assessment.

If you say it like this, may be. But she is progressing from season to season, and to say that she is only getting worse?:hopelessness: And also, as you said, she has many pros as a skater and a performer. She has charisma that many skaters lack, that counts too. And if you speak about flexibility, not everybody is Yulia out there in this department. Liza's is ok, not poor, as you put it. And yeah, she has things to improve, but so do others! And don't forget that she is only 18. Where was Ashley at 18? The fact is she is young and improving, but haters gonna hate and won't see the changes no matter what:scard8:

 

[gymerin]

I absolutely loved Osmond's dresses. Gorgeous.

 

[samm22]

I'm so glad you decided to come to golden skate Dave! TSL is so wonderful and informative and you're doing so much to make the sport more relative and interesting! I really enjoy how real you and Jenny are! It's refreshing after all of the scripted commentary we're used to hearing from NBC and the like.

I completely agree with you're skate Canada recap. Everything about Ashley's newly choreographed/tweaked programs (and those awesome dresses - go Marissa for that one in the short!) was totally true in my opinion. I think skaters like Ashley, Mao, and Evgenia being more mature in their presentation and sophistication (especially Mao) really show Liza's weakness in PCS, especially when she misses the jumps like she did in the short. She has great jumps and unique interpretation, but the refinement just isn't there and the posture is horrific!

I do think the point about Yuzu being an athlete and Patrick being a skater is very interesting. Yuzu has beautiful, balletic, pristine jumps and spins and is dramatic, but Patrick has the edges and the whole unified movement of the body. His lines!! His jumps are also beautiful when he lands them, but they don't have the virtuosity that Yuzu's do.

Dance and pairs was spot on! I have to say that I prefer Maia and Alex to Madison and Evan, but something unexpected will have to happen for Maia and Alex to win nationals like...if they place above chock and bates at the gpf (assuming they make it) then I think their favorability with usfsa will increase. I LOVE Castelli and Tran!!! I hope they sort out the jumps and get on the podium at nationals this year!!

So glad you're on golden skate!!!! I'm so excited for your cup of China recap!! Mao!!!! <3

 

[mrrice]

Hey Guys, I have often talked about the sound of Patrick Chan's Blades on the ice. I have never heard such a "Deep" sound. I remember saying I thought his blades sounded like "Thunder" when he skated. I have never seen Adam Rippon skate live but, I've often heard he has very deep edges as well. For those of you who were there. How does Adams edge quality compare to Patrick's? I'm not as concerned about jumps as I am his skating quality overall. Thanks.

 

[TSLDave]

Welcome @TSLDave! I enjoy listening to you guys' analysis because it verifies some things I think about when I watch figure skating as well as give another perspective on where we may disagree.

I was wondering if you and Jenny are going to give your opinion on the "let's compete almost nonstop this season cause it worked so well for Tuktamysheva" that seems to be happening - especially with some of Kori Ade and Tom Z's students. I'm assuming you guys will wait and see what happens at U.S. Nationals/Worlds.

As for Jason doing Graz, Kori told me that they wanted to give him more experience putting the quad out in competition. If he can handle it, I think it is a good move. There is no guarantee he will make the final. He also isn't doing the same number of events as Tuktamysheva did last year. (And really, that many events raises a side eye for so many reasons.)

I think Jason will ultimately land a quad. Kori's program does seem to fit Jason well. It will be interesting to see how her other skaters do.

 

[yuzushenko]

Who was your best dressed?

Ashley! I loved her new costumes and I saw the tweet she made about Marissa's dress before her SP and I thought it looked great, too. I also love Hanyu's new SP costume. Love the gold accents. I find it kind of funny that he probably got the gold accents as a way to say "I'm going to win gold, I am the World Champion/Olympic Champion" but so far he's gotten Silver yet again. It almost seems a bit... well I don't want to say arrogant because he doesn't seem arrogant at all... but.. it's like Michelle Kwan skating to Fields of Gold and wearing the golden dress at the Olympics, because she was probably expecting to win gold, but she ended up being Bronze. But she's golden in my heart, and I love Fields of Gold but I still thought it should be mentioned lol. Same for Hanyu. Love him, but I feel like it will just end up jinxing him.

What was your moment of the week?

Ashley winning gold by putting out two great performances, Dice's intense look during the kiss&cry after his FS.

Who has better skating skills, Hanyu or Chan?

Patrick I suppose. I think Hanyu needs better choreography. He has transitions, but they don't look as complex or rich as Patrick's. And he still has too many crossovers at some moments. I think that unfortunately, the tempo of his FS isn't that fast, so the choreography obviously eludes to a slower pace at times. I'm glad that the choreography attempts to match the tempo of the music, but it just gives the appearance that he's going slower than he probably could. This is notable during his spins, too. He has the same upright spin position he's had since Sochi, so it'd be nice if he could get a new spin, too. I'm really getting tired of the ina baurer. I don't think he has to do it in every program. It just feels too easy now that we've seen him do it a bunch of times. It feels like the quantity has cheapened the move. I wish the people who choreograph his exhibitions would choreograph his FS. His SP is sublime, I'm so happy he kept it. But yeah unfortunately I just don't think the work Shae-Lynn has done with him has done him many favors. I think Buttle did his Sochi SP and Chopin, right? Something more like that. I just don't think she and Hanyu have done something super special yet.

What would it take for the judges to allow the Shibutanis to win U.S. Nationals?

I think they definitely deserve to win Nationals if they keep doing what they're doing. Both Maia and Madison do the same spiral lift in the free, and Maia's is absolutely better. Madison is leaning so much on Evan and it looks like she's just leaning her weight on him to not fall, while Maia gets this amazing extension and you can see the separation between her and Alex, she's not just leaning on him to balance herself. It's perfect.

Madison and Evan skating to Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No. 2 is just really boring. Same over used sex face, similar choreography to their FD last year. There's a part at the end, a rotational lift I believe?, where it looks like she's having a heart attack and like she's being electrocuted to be woken up and her body just pops up to form a straight line while Evan is carrying her horizontally. It just looks really wacky. When she does it the first time it's kind of ok, but then she does it a second time and I can't help but think she's having a heart attack and someone is performing electric shock on her or something.

Do Maia and Dice need to give more facial expressions?

Maia and Alex need more facial expressions. A pet peeve I have about the Shibutanis is that whenever they face the judges, they smile. Like, there FD is to "Fix You," you don't need to break character to give the judges a cheesy grin every time your face happens to face them! Even if their body isn't facing the judges, they just suddenly look at them and smile. It's just really obnoxious and I think it's totally unnecessary, especially for the kind of music they're skating to. In their SD this year it fits them a bit more... but it's still something that they have just done for so long that I can't help but find it annoying lol.

But the main reason I wish they wouldn't smile at the judges during their FD is that this is a very introspective piece. They don't need to break that fourth wall. We want to see them perform to each other. It's a depressing song, they should be looking down or off to the distance or something, but don't just suddenly skate by the judges and turn to look and smile. With this type of music it's OK to be introspective.

Dice... I never really thought about his facial expressions before, I never thought that he needed any, but now that you've mentioned it, I realize that it would be really amazing if Dice acted more and gave some Daisuke Takahashi face. Now I'm craving to see an intense face from him while skating but unfortunately it probably won't happen!! Grr.

It was heartbreaking to see him at the end of his FS in the kiss and cry. Even Frank tried to tell him "hey look you won 3rd how good is that" and that still didn't phase him. He seemed tired at the end but he still kept on skating decently. I did realize that there were moments in his program where he's doing that Max Aarron-glide-on-skates for a while. Especially during somewhat climatic moments of the music. It almost felt as if he could have forgotten his transitions or something. Hopefully they'll work on those areas more.

I thought he should have won gold because he had a higher technical base value than Patrick but taking GOEs into account it just changed everything lol. Hopefully this defeat turned something on for him and he'll go fight to be the second Japanese man at worlds. I would just hate for him to get discouraged by this by thinking that even his very best couldn't beat a 6th place Hanyu and a single quad-single triple axel Patrick. It'll be interesting what he does after this. Unfortunately, Frank didn't seem too helpful. From what I heard in the kiss and cry it just seemed like he tried to cheer him up for winning 3rd, but you can tell that wasn't what Dice expected and I doubt anyone would want to hear that they should be happy to medal when you were at least a Silver.

 

[hikki]

Hi Dave! Love what you do and your contribution in keeping FS relevant in a fun and lighthearted way. I'm a Japanese fan (living overseas) and judging from the fan boards, some die-hard Japanese fans don't seem to have forgiven Jenny for alleged anti-Mao-ism (I missed all the details!), haha but they keep mentioning you so they love you guys really!

Who was your best dressed?
Weaver & Poje SD. Old-school glam.

What was your moment of the week?
Patrick's FS, beginning to end.

Who has better skating skills, Hanyu or Chan?
Chan hands down. So many dimensions in Patrick's moves, with twizzles in both directions one second, the spread eagle with centre of gravity incredibly low the next. He did these so effortlessly.

What would it take for the judges to allow the Shibutanis to win U.S. Nationals?
I haven't been following ice dance enough to comment

Do Maia and Dice need to give more facial expressions?
Re: Dice I don't think facial expression is the issue. Like you and Jenny said, his SS (lack of speed) and the overall power is what he needs.