Two quads in the SP?

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There are a couple guys in the field who are capable of executing two different quads, and attempt them in the FS, but only some of them are attempting both in the SP (Reynolds, Kovtun, Menshov). Not to single them out in particular, but why aren't Fernandez and Hanyu incorporating both quads into their SPs? I know they don't *need* them but it would allow them to build a huge lead over the rest of the field. And you'd think if a skater performs both quads in their FS, it wouldn't be an issue to do both in their SP?

 

[HanDomi]

There are a couple guys in the field who are capable of executing two different quads, and attempt them in the FS, but only some of them are attempting both in the SP (Reynolds, Kovtun, Menshov). Not to single them out in particular, but why aren't Fernandez and Hanyu incorporating both quads into their SPs? I know they don't *need* them but it would allow them to build a huge lead over the rest of the field. And you'd think if a skater performs both quads in their FS, it wouldn't be an issue to do both in their SP?

I guess it's because you can't win competition in SP already but you can surely loose it, but I think Hanyu will be attempting two quads in SP in future, maybe Javier too

And I am not sure if it's really that much points gain by doing that. I guess it would be 4 more points on TES if done nicely which you can easily loose in FS anyway

 

[andromache]

I assume it's a risk v. reward issue. Two quads in the short is a far bigger risk than two quads in the long, points-wise. If you fail on a jump or two in the long, there are many more places to make up those points than in the short. In addition, Hanyu and Fernandez have enough good qualities to their skating to not need to risk a two-quad short, whereas the two-quad SP guys--well, their primary strength is in the jumps and they need to capitalize on that.

 

[Alchamei]

Some guys have a one of their quads much more consistent than the other and therefore it would be a crucial loss of points if they messed up the element. By the way, Hanyu has an inconsistent Salchow and doesn't do quad in combination and even though Javi has a solid quad Toe, we don't know whether it is solid enough o do it out of steps or in combination in SP. His Salchows can be also pretty inconsistent.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Hanyu was originally planing two quad combos this season and at least 4T3T in the SP, so I doubt the fact he "only" goes for one quad in the SP has anything to do with avoiding quad combos. The inconsistency of his 4S could be the reason though. It also seems he wants to get a 3 quad LP down first, so I'd expect him to go back to that plan next season.

Javi can do his 4S out of steps, and given the good flow out of his 4T I'm sure he could do it in combination. Guess it's really just the fact it's too much risk for too little reward. It's a shame, because I think Javi could get it done.

 

[chuckm]

Kovtun's two-quad sp hasn't always worked out that well. His first one, at CoC, was clean and so was Russian Nationals. But others weren't.

TEB: 4s+2t, 4t↓, 3a↓
He still pulled off the win by outskating Machida in the FS; Denis Ten had a meltdown in the FS.

GPF: 4s+3t-df-hop, 4t, 3a-to (3rd)
Landed one quad in the FS; 4th there, 4th overall

EUROS: 4s-2hd-no combo, 4t, 3a (4th)
Second in the FS for silver overall.

 

[Bonesfan]

Hanyu was originally planing two quad combos this season and at least 4T3T in the SP, so I doubt the fact he "only" goes for one quad in the SP has anything to do with avoiding quad combos. The inconsistency of his 4S could be the reason though. It also seems he wants to get a 3 quad LP down first, so I'd expect him to go back to that plan next season.

Javi can do his 4S out of steps, and given the good flow out of his 4T I'm sure he could do it in combination. Guess it's really just the fact it's too much risk for too little reward. It's a shame, because I think Javi could get it done.

Hanyu's original SP layout :
3A
----
4T (2nd half)
3Lz-3T
which he performed at a summer skate show (and attempted at CoC)

NHK, GPF, JN layout
4T
-----
3A
3Lz-3T

The 4T combo was for the FS

 

[TontoK]

With so much risk, I'd guess it would be a "Second Tier" skater who would attempt.

Someone with little to lose and a lot to gain in terms of breaking out of the pack and becoming a world force.

Someone like Max Aaron comes to mind. I love Max, but in all honesty, he would need something like this to become a WC contender.

 

[Rissa]

I read a not-completely-serious opinion that Hanyu's team's strategy seems to be putting out brilliantly choreographed and wonderfully executed SPs in order to gain PCS, then leave the FS to rack up the technical points and hope the PCS would carry over from the SP, lol. Two quads in SP does scream "no breath for choreography" so perhaps that's the reason top guys aren't keen on doing it, they'd rather do a good first imperssion on the judges. (And as the practice shows, they're perfectly capable of screwing up one-quad SPs, what if they went for two.)

 

[dorispulaski]

If the second quad is not done out of steps, it is supposed to automatically get GOE of -3. So unless you are capable of doing it out of steps, it is a bad risk. Some panels of judges are forgiving about this, but it is apt to catch up with you sometime.

http://static.isu.org/media/154325/1884-sandp-amendments-and-corrections-to-1861.pdf


Here's the the GOE table:



Quad Toeloop 4T 3,0 2,0 1,0 10,3 7,2 -1,0 -2,0 -3,0
Quad Salchow 4S 3,0 2,0 1,0 10,5 7,4 -1,0 -2,0 -3,0
Quad Loop 4Lo 3,0 2,0 1,0 12,0 8,4 -1,0 -2,0 -3,0
Quad Flip 4F 3,0 2,0 1,0 12,3 8,6 7,4 -1,0 -2,0 -3,0
Quad Lutz 4Lz 3,0 2,0 1,0 13,6 9,5 8,2 -1,0 -2,0 -3,0





If you fully rotate your quad, here's what you get:

4t 10.3-3.0= 7.3
4s 10.5-3.0= 7.5

You can score better with a well done lutz with a tough entry and tano arms.

If you underrotate and get the lower base value, you could do better. with any of the triples quite easily.

4t< 7.2-3.0=4.2
4s< 7.4-3.0=4.4



The one place where it pays to do a quad with no steps preceding, is with a fully rotated 4Lz with no edge call.

4Lz. 13.6-3.0 = 10.6

However

4Lz< 9.5-3.0 =6.5, which is why Adam Rippon did not see a lot of advantage from his strategy of doing a quad with no steps and UR at U.S. Nationals in the SP.

4Lz<< has the same base as 3Lz, btw.

 

[gmyers]

It's not helping kovtun at all. He is not doing any artistry and doing FUSPs as spins. He should go to one quad so he can do some artistry for pcs and do real spins not FUSPs.

 

[chuckm]

Problem is Kovtun doesn't do much that could be described as 'artistry'. He just jumps.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Problem is Kovtun doesn't do much that could be described as 'artistry'. He just jumps.

Well he did make Johnny Weir think their were monsters hiding in [Kovtun's] closet.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's not helping kovtun at all. He is not doing any artistry and doing FUSPs as spins. He should go to one quad so he can do some artistry for pcs and do real spins not FUSPs.

Uh do you share the same FUSp "real spin" sentiment about Javier Fernandez or Jeremy Abbott?

 

[gmyers]

Uh do you share the same FUSp "real spin" sentiment about Javier Fernandez or Jeremy Abbott?

Yes is do any contender should not do them but Fernandez tries three quad fs and Abbott is major artistic force. Kovtun isn't doing three quads or an artistic force. The issue with two quad Sps is energy level and hanyu may have to go down in a spin area like a fusp or Maybe not be so artistic. Less tr or choreo or pr or something. But kovtun has Tossed all artistry aside and spin difficulty is low.

 

[Skater Boy]

I guess it's because you can't win competition in SP already but you can surely loose it, but I think Hanyu will be attempting two quads in SP in future, maybe Javier too

And I am not sure if it's really that much points gain by doing that. I guess it would be 4 more points on TES if done nicely which you can easily loose in FS anyway

I think the answer to the question why we don't see too man two quad short programs is simple - how many have successfully landed two different quads consistently even in the long program. I do expect Hanyu to eventually try two quads in the sp but I also wonder if it might be his undoing. He is young but if he is already getting aches and pains I am not sure it will be great for his future. COP or IJS pushes jumps but the programs are starting to look well less like programs and more like framework for jumps.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes is do any contender should not do them but Fernandez tries three quad fs and Abbott is major artistic force. Kovtun isn't doing three quads or an artistic force. The issue with two quad Sps is energy level and hanyu may have to go down in a spin area like a fusp or Maybe not be so artistic. Less tr or choreo or pr or something. But kovtun has Tossed all artistry aside and spin difficulty is low.

Note that Kovtun actually used to do 3 quads and two axels. But has opted for 2 quads, likely to develop his programs artistically.

I disagree that energy level is an issue when it's only 3 jumping passes versus 8... And yet with 8 jumping passes, two different quads are attempted. Also, points-wise, a spin being a "only" level 3 instead of level 4 is negligible compared to having a triple instead of a second quad.

Lame that you try to justify Abbott's FUSp because he's an artistic force, or Fernandez as having 3 quads (mind you Fernandez does only one 3A whereas Kovtun does two).

Also, Kovtun's spin value isn't low - at Euros all but one spin were a level 4 for him.

Also, a FUSp4 is worth 0.1 points less (2.9) than a FSSp4 (3.0) and 0.3 less than a FCSp4 (3.2). So who cares about what basic position the spin is in?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think the answer to the question why we don't see too man two quad short programs is simple - how many have successfully landed two different quads consistently even in the long program. I do expect Hanyu to eventually try two quads in the sp but I also wonder if it might be his undoing. He is young but if he is already getting aches and pains I am not sure it will be great for his future. COP or IJS pushes jumps but the programs are starting to look well less like programs and more like framework for jumps.

But if you make that risk in the long program when arguably you need to conserve energy then why not do both in the SP?

I do agree with some of the point like it being risky and possibly putting you out of the final FS flight.

 

[Globetrotter]

At the moment, those 2 quad guys like Kovtun, Reynolds or Max Aaron are obviously the ones who can jump but could not depend on non jump areas to gain points. Specifically, their PCS tend to be low as they have neither the performance skills or strong SS / edge work. It is almost as if they learnt to jump first before getting the basic skating skills (stroking, edge control, speed etc) in place. They needed 2 quad SPs in order to stay competitive. To max out a 2 quad, it is necessary to be able to have two stable and different quad jump and one must be done in combination. Practically, the ideal way to max out the quads will be to perform a 4X1-3T (not even thing of a 3R tag on!) and a 4X2 out of steps. If you only can do a 4T-2T like Kovtun, the BV is only 11.6 and a strong performer like Hanyu can simply retain a 3Lz-3T (x) after the second half to get a 11.11 BV after a 10% bonus, so the difference is narrowed. If say the 4S is not done out of steps, it will be a -3 GOE straightaway and the final score = 10.5 (BV of 4S) - 3.0 = 7.5. A well done 3Lz in the second half for instance with steps can easily gain good GOE and 7.5 total - Liza Tuks 3Lz at Europeans got a whooping 7.5 without even a 10% bonus.

So it all depends on whether the skater can maximise out the jumps and if he has other areas where the points can be gained. I think for strong skaters like Javi or Hanyu, they have their performance and skating skills which can rack up PCS points and the 2 quad SP becomes considerably high risk with modest returns since they do not really need it to beat the other guys. Kovtun and Max Aaron will never match the other two on PCS, so they have to resort to maxing out the technical elements in order to make up for their low PCS. It is overall the risk benefit balance. if one day, somebody comes along with huge performance skills and yet can jump big quads (e.g. a revived PChiddy with a stable 3A!), it is likely that Hanyu and Javi will up their ante to go for 2 quads to remain competitive. At the moment, they do not need that.

 

[Sandpiper]

There are only three jumping passes in the SP. Two quads is risky, since you can get more for a well-done 3Lz vs. a fallen quad. Whereas doing two different quads is a big advantage in the LP, since it 1) allows you to repeat two different triples (instead of the either/or situation facing someone like Machida) 2) even if you fall, it's better than the 2A/3T/whatever you have left to replace it with.

Two quads in the SP requires several skills: Two reliable quads, the ability to do one out of steps, the ability to do the other in combination, and the focus to not head-case on your 3A afterwards. Yuzuru lacks one of those points (the reliable 4S). He shouldn't have a problem doing a quad combination, but it'd be a new element in his programs, so who knows.

Javi at his best should be able to do it, but he's been so inconsistent this year, on both 4S and 3A. If anything, I'd suggest switching that SP 4S with a 4T, rather than adding more baggage with another quad.