Unfair Judging

[Mathman]

The current generation of skaters are lacking in comparison to the past when it comes to giving an organic performance, showcasing musicality and character, and creating meaningful pictures and moments of thrill on the ice. Skating these days is very choppy, everything is rushed from one movement to the next in order to show as much "difficult" movement as possible.

I think the audience has evolved along with the sport. I think that today's audiences do not pay so much attention, nor prize so much, an organic program showcasing musicality and character as audiences once did. Now we tend to keep one eye on the little box showing cumulative points for completing elements, while we get ready to cheer if the skater hits that upcoming triple flip the same way we cheer a basketball player who rolls off a pick and hits the shot.

When I was young, kids were nicer and music was better and don't even mention the food…

Certainly the part about the music is true. In the 1960s (my decade )you could take your pick of a dozen different genre's (country, rock, classical, jazz, old standards, musicals, rhythm and blues, alternative, folk, instrumentals,…) all getting equal playing time on the radio.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

The spirit of the law supercedes the letter of the law. The implied increased difficulty of steps before a jump is the reason for bonus points. 3 turns before a Loop jump actually makes the jump easier, at least for some skaters, in the experience of at least one judge, who may decide to go with the spirit of the law and not reward GOE. If other judges have different experiences or opinions based on most skaters' experiences, then their rewarding the points balances or overrides the judge who feels otherwise. Or they may have no personal opinions and go with the letter of the law and give GOE according to the objective observation of the fact that there were steps as entry into the jump.

That's why there is a panel of judges.

3-turns into the loop made it so difficult for me. Maybe it's just that the jump was harder for me but I hated the loop for awhile. We would do it from a standstill at first and then from speed but later when we finally dropped the 3-turn and started just doing from a backward outside edge it was easy. Part of that was probably safety though. A loop from just a backward edge would be more dangerous when you're first learning it. Once you know what you're doing any steps before a loop are objectively harder, however, a preferred set of steps would become part of you're muscle memory and subjectively seem easier even though they are not.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think the audience has evolved along with the sport. I think that today's audiences do not pay so much attention, nor prize so much, an organic program showcasing musicality and character as audiences once did.

Oh, I totally disagree. People definitely want it, the sport just isn't giving it much anymore, but the people who still watch are hanging on hoping for the magic to happen. The slivers of artistic brilliance here and there string people along. The crowd absolutely loved Javier Fernandez at Worlds, one of the rare cases of being able to incorporate all the requirements these days in a way where mostly everything had purpose and created an engaging story/visualization on the ice.

 

[cl2]

That's a really intriguing insight into how our minds works. Even looking at it while knowing it was a tricky question, it still took me a couple of minutes to figure it out.

Intriguing it is! If you're interested in learning more about the broader cognitive theory developed around WYSIATI, I highly recommend the book Thinking, Fast and Slow by Prof. Daniel Kahneman, which explains, based on years of research, how fast instinctive thinking can often lead to undesirable cognitive biases and erroneous conclusions. In fact, I am of the opinion that everyone on this planet should read his book, because no one, myself included, is immune from these biases but everyone would do well to acknowledge their presence.

 

[cl2]

Has anyone ever done a forward outside counter into a Loop? That will be wow.

Not that I know of. This year's required jump out of steps in the junior SP is the loop, so let's keep our eyes open for impressive entries.

TSL must be reading my mind. Today they posted this Russian skater, Anastasia Mukhortova, doing exactly that, a FO counter into a 3L.

 

[plushyfan]

for me there are no remarkable girls at the moment. Everyone is allowed to think what they think, and that is what I think. Thank you.

OK. Who were remarkable female skater for you?

 

[plushyfan]

I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but the age-old happening of elders complaining about the younger generation, just for the sake of it, is not what I am talking about.

Watch this and then try to say that any competitor these days displays the same level of ability to utilize their arms with purpose, move their body in ways that convey deep meaning and emotion, and at all times present a cohesive vision to the audience. It just isn't happening these days. There are too many check-list items in programs that are detracting.

The entire 1998 Olympic podium showed better quality in this area than anyone today. Tara Lipinski may have been criticized for being relatively immature/simplistic in comparison to someone like Kwan, but her performances were still at a higher level than anyone today. She showed genuine, expressive emotion at every moment, entirely to the music. Not just one-note emotion either, there was a great softness to her arms at times, in addition to her exuberant quality. See here - there's a clear embodiment of the music happening. You can see and feel how it is running through her, guiding her movement, and that she is then reflecting it back into the audience. We don't get movement and emotional involvement like this anymore, it isn't valued enough, and that is sad. It is a definite skill, being able to project and perform like this, to show this kind of freedom, in the middle of an athletic performance. To make every body position and movement meaningful, allowing each section to fully blossom into completion, dictated by the music.

I adore Lulu. :luv17:

This is an old debate. Too many Trs, too many rules, too many busy programs-----> less emotion, expressivity.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I am just terrible at articulating, so apologies. I am not quite sure what you mean....what I meant was that I had hard time seeing those easy steps (inside 3's) as making the jump more difficult when I knew it was helping the skater and so I was being subjective.....lol...does that answer your question?

Well a similar experience is the lutz with a Michelle Kwan LFI-RBO Choctaw-crossfoot onto LBO entry on a straightaway - it's harder than riding a back outside edge towards a corner, but for many skaters it's actually easier because you don't have to worry about balancing on the entry edge and ensuring correct timing of the takeoff.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

TSL must be reading my mind. Today they posted this Russian skater, Anastasia Mukhortova, doing exactly that, a FO counter into a 3L.

Nice! It's not quite the same but Ashley's outside spread eagle into her triple loop has a similar mechanic - although she has both feet down in the spread eagle (obviously) and her free foot helping to brace her before the 3L... But I'm sure Ashley could pull it off.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^^

When I was young, kids were nicer and music was better and don't even mention the food, nobody knows how to cook nowadays.

Is this what your grandpa kept telling you?

 

[Lambari]

I think some people have a broken sarcasm detector :hslap: :rofl2:

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think some people have a broken sarcam detector :hslap: :rofl2:

That's because they don't build them like they used to.

 

[topaz emerald]

Yes it does compute, that poster is correct. Quality and determining if something is average or not is based on ALL-TIME scale. Not only looking at the present.

The current generation of skaters are lacking in comparison to the past when it comes to giving an organic performance, showcasing musicality and character, and creating meaningful pictures and moments of thrill on the ice. Skating these days is very choppy, everything is rushed from one movement to the next in order to show as much "difficult" movement as possible.

There is a clarity and purpose that has been lost and when the movements don't have the same meaning, it becomes so much easier to do them. Instead of worrying about "does this look good? Is this going to excite the audience?", the focus is now just on simply motoring your way through a program and expecting the audience to appreciate it.

Thank you

 

[topaz emerald]

Oh, I totally disagree. People definitely want it, the sport just isn't giving it much anymore, but the people who still watch are hanging on hoping for the magic to happen. The slivers of artistic brilliance here and there string people along. The crowd absolutely loved Javier Fernandez at Worlds, one of the rare cases of being able to incorporate all the requirements these days in a way where mostly everything had purpose and created an engaging story/visualization on the ice.

I could not agree more on what Javier did that day, and to think I was never his fan before.

 

[topaz emerald]

OK. Who were remarkable female skater for you?

Michelle kwan, Mao asada, yuna kim(took me awhile to appreciate and enjoy her skating, though), gordeeva/grinkov, virtue/Moir, Meryl/charlie (took me awhile to appreciate and enjoy their skating though, I would say their music of the night long program at 2010 Olympics sold me ), evgeny plushenko, Jeremy Abbott (he just wasn't consistent though)....luxury hanyu of course, Javier, chan (I think he has the smoothest edges, just floats across the ice, but inconsistent), jun Hwan cha will be great, I think

 

[TMC]

luxury hanyu

 

[YesWay]

luxury hanyu

Please tell me "Luxury" is what spelling autocorrect thinks "Yuzuru" should be...!

It would be so wrong... and yet so right...! haha :-D

 

[topaz emerald]

Please tell me "Luxury" is what spelling autocorrect thinks "Yuzuru" should be...!

It would be so wrong... and yet so right...! haha :-D

lolololol.....sorry folks, was typing from my mobile phone

 

[moriel]

lolololol.....sorry folks, was typing from my mobile phone

your phone actually makes some sense =P

 

[Lambari]

That's because they don't build them like they used to.

Truer words have never been spoken. They don't make sarcasm like the good ol' days.