Who should have won that gold! Top ten robberies

[ImaginaryPogue]

Sublime moments in Kim's OGM LP choreography

--The flirtatious movements after the 2A+3T
--The entry into the 3S and the exit. The lovely rushing movements afterwards
--The moment where she strokes her her head and reaches forward in the footwork

 

[mary01]

:scratch: guanchi, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that ballet as a comparison is "dead"...

When people refer to "balletic" skating I don't think they don't mean the strictest, tightest, most old-fashioned way of looking at ballet (completely different from skating by principle anyway, ballet can never be skating because it's not on the ice and vice versa)--I take it that they mean a skater has superior lightness, flexibility, lines, and ease. I do not think it was anyone's intention to offend ballet "aficionados" by making these comparisons, but rather say a skater has the spirit or fluidity of a ballerina dancing.

I would be sad to see Mao, Sasha, or Alissa drop out of skating to train for ballet for 5 years Simply because they do not need it--they have developed their own unique beauty on the ice, just as a ballerina naturally adapts her movements to being on ground. It's also quite a shame that you don't recognize the many years of hard dance/movement/flexibility training these girls had to go through as many skaters aspire and train to get those kind of lines. And yes, some skaters just do not have very nice posture, free leg position or flexibility which is what sets the three you targeted (as well as others) out from the rest.

And what is ballet without emotion anyway? What is ballet but a storytelling art at its very heart? What is ballet if it can't change, adapt, or be innovated upon? Dance, as all things, changes with its environment.
Skating is a strange world where one must always keep an open mind.

ITA, couldn't have said it in a more accurate way, you really described the essence of ballet on the ice, and what separates "balletic skater" from others!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well, I, for one, completely loved Yuna's Olympic free skate. It reminded me of Kwan's Lyra Angelica, except with an extra dose of flirtatiousness. It's a piece about pure joy, and Yuna communicated that thoroughly and made me feel it.

I don't see nearly the same joy, nor the same connection to music, in Yu-Na's performance vs Kwan's performance at 1998 Nationals. Just like Emily Frankel said, Yu-Na "plays little bits of character throughout the program". When she's not playing those little highlight bits, her arms aren't doing much and her face is relatively blank. I certainly never see her express the same ecstatic heights as Kwan either and just look at how rehearsed Yu-Na's ending to the program is compared to Kwan's (and that ineffective forward leg-grab spin position...a scratch spin would have been SO much better, but it wasn't worth points with those CoP rules; so sad). There isn't enough space for Yu-Na's program to every truly breathe and linger because she's so busy packing in movements that are only there for points rather than a greater choreographic or interpretative purpose. Most everything in the program is nice and it's well constructed for what it is, but a great program and an amazing "performance" it is not.

Sublime moments in Kim's OGM LP choreography

--The flirtatious movements after the 2A+3T
--The entry into the 3S and the exit. The lovely rushing movements afterwards
--The moment where she strokes her her head and reaches forward in the footwork

I definitely don't see how any of that is sublime. Why is Yu-Na playing an air piano going into the 3S? What does that have to do with this program other than piano notes playing at that given moment in time? If you're going to reference the music so literally than I would expect the program as a whole to be much more FUN and that's definitely not what this program is. The first movements she does after the 2Axel-3Toe are cute, I wouldn't say sublime though (of course it's not about just the movements themselves but how the program as a whole gives them meaning), but then why does she suddenly go into an illusion turn? How does that relate to the music at all? It's out of place and nothing more than yet another extra move to boost the transitions score. That moment in the footwork you mention is pretty good on its own but, again, I don't see much actual relevance to the program or the music at that point in time; it's something that would have made a lot more sense in her Miss Saigon program. That movement is also not given the time to really have a strong outward effectiveness because it is preceded and followed by random footwork which distracts from such a highlight, rather than letting it form a clear picture.

 

[Olympia]

I'm not arguing against your stance, Blades, but I don't think we can ever know what gives another viewer gooseflesh. I know for sure that there were people sitting by their TV or computer screens with gooseflesh as YuNa skated that night, and I was one of them. There will be arguments about what gave us shivers of amazement, but I bear witness that they exist.

On the subject of which performances make the earth move, I have to say that one of the times in my life that I was stirred to the point of tears was by skaters whom I never think of as especially artistic. It was during the 1994 Worlds, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), when Brasseur and Eisler skated despite Brasseur's broken rib(s). Their emotion at sustaining their level of performance (I used that word not meaning solely as an artistic performance, but generally, as an execution of a program) carried over into what they were doing. I couldn't possibly explain why I felt that way, except to say that there was something in the air. No analysis or argument anyone could give would convince me that this was not an artistically thrilling moment--for me.

The other thing I'd say, Blades, is that comparing almost any skating program to Kwan's 1998 Nationals "Lyra" will make the other skater come up short. That was a rare event that has almost no rivals. (Tonichelle might disagree, of course.)

Leaving that aside, I think one reason you didn't find YuNa's performance (the word used in the general sense again) satisfying is due to factors beyond her control. Of course she had to pack the thing with points-scoring moves. That's the system today. Look at how Plushenko, a skating marvel, just missed out on a gold because he front-loaded his program and didn't really answer the demand for transitions. So YuNa and her team did their homework. It's a shame that this quantity-first form of skating is the rule of the day. But it's a rule that YuNa had to play by to win the day. This is another reason that you can't judge her level of ease and joy against Michelle's celestially sublime 6.0 "Lyra." Nonetheless, I think YuNa did a stupendous job, and I'm thrilled that her programs are finally available on YouTube so I can view them again.

 

[Skater Boy]

Wow, such awesome analysis by all. I am dumbfounded. I have to say that Yuna's performance stands out more to me than Shizuka - though when I rewatch ARakawa I do see the pure passion and beauty compared to kim which is more of a performance (acting). But they are different routines so it is hard to compare. I think YuNa's performance at Vancovuer stands out more than Shizuka and kwan well in the case of Kwan she didn't win gold. In the case of Arakawa she just didn't have the credibility or it factor at the time to really be a total stand out. She did not have the following of Mao for example today. She is more in the vein of Hughes and Lipinski good skaters but didn't have the it quality - - not quite one time wonders but sometimes you just have it - YuNa, Sasha, ito, Michelle, Oksana , Katerina have it. All their skates even with falls are it. Not so much with Ando, ARakawa, Trenary, Hughes, Meisner, Zayak, Sumners, etc. Yuna had amazing jumps, well at least difficult and that to the average joe or josephone is what stands out first probably. Granted Hughes had some nice ones; I have to say I wonder if Tara would be dinged under COP. If she was not world champion I wonder if she might have been dinged. I am thinking of the "standard" new skater who can jump but lacks sophitication. I could see Lipinski had it been a different situation with that skate getting h ammered much to the boos of the audience. Her jumps were not good - sort of straight up and spin fast but not great height, coverage and looked iunder rotated. She looked like her jumps were too big for her body if that makes sense - she didn't have the maturity. In my mind one great jump by Nicole Bobek, Josee Chouinard, Joannie Rochette or Slutskaya was in a way worth more than two tiny Tara jumps. These girls had wonderful jumps when on.

 

[Tonichelle]

(Tonichelle might disagree, of course.)

no might about it... everything Blades accuses Kim of about expressionless I attribute to Kwan's skating so to each their own!

how did this become another Kim-Asada thread anyway? neither wuzrobbed that I'm aware of.

 

[Skater Boy]

Follow up to my last post. Tara's jumps were that of a little girl not a woman. They were like Kraft Dinner versus homemade made mac and cheese with three types of real cheese and truffle oil with lobster meat.

 

[Jaana]

Hmm, Ladies? Definitely feel Nancy was robbied and deserved gold for two almost perfect skates 1994. Loved the young Oksana and it got her out of Ukraine, but Nancy was victimized twice-whacked and underscored by German judge.

In that case she must have been underscored by several judges, not just by one judge, LOL. Personally I prefered Baiul (like the majority of judges) and was glad that she won.

 

[Mathman]

how did this become another Kim-Asada thread anyway? neither wuzrobbed that I'm aware of.

Mao wuzrobbed in 2006 by the age rule.

In that case she must have been underscored by several judges, not just by one judge, LOL. Personally I prefered Baiul (like the majority of judges) and was glad that she won.

I think the German judge (Jan Hoffmann) was singled out because "everybody knew" before the contest began that there were four Kerrigan judges (USA, Britain, Canada and Japan) and four Baiul judges (Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, and China) on the panel. The only vote that was not already committed was Hoffmann's.

 

[plushyfan]

Mao wuzrobbed in 2006 by the age rule.



I think the German judge (Jan Hoffmann) was singled out because "everybody knew" before the contest began that there were four Kerrigan judges (USA, Britain, Canada and Japan) and four Baiul judges (Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, and China) on the panel. The only vote that was not already committed was Hoffmann's.

Jan Hoffman was originally East-German, from GDR .

 

[Mathman]

Anyway is wuzrob a real verb. I learnt it here but people use it in general or is made by fans? you can say I wuzrob, you wuzrob, he/she wuzrobs etc ?

To piggyback on Olympia's answer, you won't find this verb in any dictionary -- yet!

But I would still say, yes, it's a "real verb," meaning "to complain (about the results of a judged sports event)."

"You can wuzrob as much as you want, but that won't change the results."

Not only is it a real word, but in the "smooched together" form it is a word (like that wonderful if somewhat ill-defined word "voidy") that was invented specifically by figure-skating fans. I just did a Google search. Page after page came up referring to "wuz robbed," but the only references to "wuzrobbed" were from skating sites like Golden Skate and FSU.

I think the misspelling "wuz" as well as the grammatical faux pas "they wuz robbed" instead of were is an attempt at rendering the Brooklyn/New Joisy/Lower East Side accent/dialect.

I also found out this. The original "We wuz robbed" is attributed to Joe Jacobs, who was a boxing promoter in the 1930s. Jacobs was a Jewish Hungarian immigrant to the United States who whose English was a colorful mishmash.

Jacobs managed the U.S. career of the German heavyweight champ Max Schmeling. Schmeling returned to Germany for a bout, and when he won, the crowd gave him a "standing Nazi salute." Not knowing what to do, Jacobs raised his right hand also, brandishing his ever-present cigar. This was interpreted as making fun or defying the Nazis, and received a lot of press in both Germany and the United States.

 

[Mathman]

Jan Hoffman was originally East-German, from GDR .

Even so, he was regarded as not pre-committed either to Baiul or to Kerrigan.

 

[Tonichelle]

Follow up to my last post. Tara's jumps were that of a little girl not a woman. They were like Kraft Dinner versus homemade made mac and cheese with three types of real cheese and truffle oil with lobster meat.

well there ya go, I prefer the boxed stuff to something with lobster *YUCK*

 

[Mathman]

Watch youtube videos of real ballet- Mao, Czisny, and Cohen are not even in their league in any semblance of form nor competence...

I kind of think you are beating up on a straw man here. Jeremy Abbott is called a "musical skater," but no one expects him to grab his oboe and sit in with the philharmonic.

 

[Tonichelle]

I kind of think you are beating up on a straw man here. Jeremy Abbott is called a "musical skater," but no one expects him to grab his oboe and sit in with the philharmonic.

no, no one WANTS him to... who WANTS to hear an oboe? LOL (ok so I do like the oboe played well...)

 

[Krislite]

To me, Yu-Na's Olympic performance was artistically inferior to every single performance you just listed. For real. There was no spontaneity to it, too many pointless CoP moves, and not a single piece of choreography that creates a feeling of the sublime. Look at Yu-Na's ina bauer going into the 2Axel-2Toe-2Loop combination, for example. That move actually goes against the music and has no impact. It was simply a "transition". Everything in the program was built around gaining technical points. The worst offender is the confused footwork sequence that was void of connection to the music, had no sense of cohesiveness, and took up an entire 30 seconds. Sure, Yu-Na executed everything in the program with a perfect polish and what she accomplished is a feat virtually no other skater could ever match, but it was not a performance. It was a routine.

You seem more miffed about the CoP-heavy choreography. I distinguish it from "performance." Granted that probably has some different technical meaning under IJS rules, but her "performance" that night was absolutely phenomenal. I think of her "performance" as the totality of everything she did in that span of 4 minutes, evaluated in the grand context in which it was done. With only one chance, she executed her difficult program flawlessly under the most oppressive burden of expectations and pressure. Which is why I wouldn't call it "routine". A repeated performance is "routine." I doubt Yuna has it in her to make that kind of execution normal and routine.

Maybe we're all taking past each other (what is your definition of "performance"?). There are so many ways to dissect and evaluate a particular skate. As for the choreography, some of her other programs are a bit better in that regard (e.g. Lark or Arirang).

 

[Olympia]

Even so, he was regarded as not pre-committed either to Baiul or to Kerrigan.

And, interestingly, I think Hoffman supported Michelle with his second mark four years later. I always liked him for that.

Mathman: Schmeling's manager? For real? Man, truth really is stranger than fiction. I was imagining "wuzrobbed" as being Brooklynese, but from some luckless match between the Dodgers and the Yankees (two rival baseball teams, for those non-Americans not knowledgeable about baseball) rather than boxing. For those not up on boxing, Max Schmeling was a German boxer of the 1930s who was supposed to represent Aryan superiority. (He was personally a very nice and modest guy.) He had two matches with Joe Louis, the African-American boxer. Schmeling won the first bout in a knockout, but Louis won the second. It was a great moment both for sports and for civil rights, much as Jesse Owens' wins at the Munich Olympics.

Toni, your comment about Kwan goes a long way toward proving my point. You and I both love skating (and we both love Kurt Browning, so our tastes aren't that far apart), but you are left absolutely cold by one of the generally acknowledged greatest skaters ever (Kwan) in one of her greatest performances ever. It's a touchstone moment that is on the top ten list of thousands of skate fans. (Not just a fave of mine, in other words.) Viewpoints differ, and past a certain point, one can't insist on the glory (or lack thereof) of a skating performance in the absolute sense. There are moments when any one of us will be in the minority about a particular skater. Vive la difference!

And just to put in my two cents about the oboe, Rimsky-Korsakov and Jean Sibelius use it absolutely magically in their music. So if Jeremy wants to show up with an oboe in his exhibition skate....

 

[burntBREAD]

Don't understand the singling out of Hoffman. Didn't he place Kerrigan and Baiul only 0.1 apart on each score? He had Kerrigan winning the technical, and Baiul winning the artistic which (even though I disliked the Baiul program) is rather reasonable, considering Baiul's far greater charisma. It was just because he was the one that barely broke the balance by having Baiul up 0.1 on the tie dealing artistic scores. Yet people overlook another judge, whose country I forgot, that gave Baiul an arbitrary 5.9 in technical merit for her messy jumps, mediocre spins, and simple steps. Jan Hoffman has received a bad rep for giving out pretty fair scores at the time..

 

[seniorita]

To piggyback on Olympia's answer, you won't find this verb in any dictionary -- yet!
Jacobs managed the U.S. career of the German heavyweight champ Max Schmeling. Schmeling returned to Germany for a bout, and when he won, the crowd gave him a "standing Nazi salute." Not knowing what to do, Jacobs raised his right hand also, brandishing his ever-present cigar. This was interpreted as making fun or defying the Nazis, and received a lot of press in both Germany and the United States.

No, Seniorita, wuzrobbed is a made-up verb that is the exclusive property of disappointed but impassioned sports fans.

thank you both!

I kind of think you are beating up on a straw man here. Jeremy Abbott is called a "musical skater," but no one expects him to grab his oboe and sit in with the philharmonic.

Lol, that was funny image!!

 

[Big Deal]

What is this long conversation about Kim and Asada?
Nobody ever would think or told that it was a robbery, what is the title of the subject!!
Why to discuss about Kim's program was or was not the best ever Olympic performance?
It is not in this topic. If you ask me, I think that it was the best ever and Mao's was th 2nd best ever. Even Rochette would win every single Olympic Games before Vancouver with her perfomnce.


The real Robbery was in 1994 ( besides Mishkutionok-Dmitriev), when Torvill/Dean was killed by the Russian politics.
That was a turning point of the popularity of the sport!!