Who should have won that gold! Top ten robberies

[guanchi]

I am not trying to argue over this- It is not a big deal. Just some people think it was the best skate EVER and I disagree. I still don't get why you are connecting Sandra Bezic to that quote.

Hmm, someone brought up a link of this Frankel character, a supposed dance "expert"- never heard of her-, critiquing Kim's and Asada's dance proficiency, and Bezic's comments about Kim's performance, which this Frankel person keeps harping on. Then BoP chimes in on Frankel's critique of Bezic. Then you chime in about Kim's performance. So, really, Bezic is not connected in any way?

Oh, and " Asada was overscored in Vancouver, Joannie should have placed silver, and Mirai bronze..."

 

[Mathman]

I am not trying to argue over this- It is not a big deal. Just some people think it was the best skate EVER and I disagree. I still don't get why you are connecting Sandra Bezic to that quote.

In the video that started this discussion (post 39 by Plushyfan) dance critic Emily Frankel roundly criticizses Sandra Bezic's commentary. Frankel describes Besic's tone as "know-it-all" and as an example of Besic's off-putting authoritative manner Frankel claims that even before the program was over Besic "gasped and said. 'this is the greatest performance I have ever seen!'"

So the discussion was about whther Besic actually said that. (No, Besic said, "one of the gretest Olympic performances I ahve ever seen.")

So that's how Besic got dragged into the discussion.

 

[Tonichelle]

Actually I think Joannie should've won in 2010... it would've made a way more emotional impact news headline...

 

[Mathman]

And to the person who said Orser looked like a bell hop remember the olympics were in Canada and red is their color.

The two Brians tried to outdo each other in looking twerpy.

http://images.beijing2008.cn/20070505/Img214050641.jpg

http://celebslists.com/images/brian-orser-06.jpg

The red shoes gave the nod to Orser.

 

[guanchi]

Interesting also that Orser used red, Soviet Communist music- the "Bolt", I believe. Maybe skating really is purely political Was he trying to make a statement through satire, irony?

 

[Krislite]

Hmm, someone brought up a link of this Frankel character, a supposed dance "expert"- never heard of her-, critiquing Kim's and Asada's dance proficiency, and Bezic's comments about Kim's performance, which this Frankel person keeps harping on. Then BoP chimes in on Frankel's critique of Bezic. Then you chime in about Kim's performance. So, really, Bezic is not connected in any way?

Oh, and " Asada was overscored in Vancouver, Joannie should have placed silver, and Mirai bronze..."

The whole opinion over "lines" comes from those who believe skating should be like ballet/dance. Watch a ballerina and you'll see how Mao has better lines than Yuna. It's not really subjective. Mao herself actually had quite a bit of ballet training (she studied ballet from age 3 to 9, when she turned to figure skating) and it shows. Yuna had practically no ballet training.

What I would contest is the whole worship of balletic forms or the idea that skating is just like ballet only with skating boots...but that would get us way off topic. In any case, I don't think Mao wuzrobbed just because she had better lines or carriage. There's a lot more to skating than that. Most of my favorite skaters are not balletic. I'm not a big fan of Sasha Cohen or Oksana or the more recent Mirai and Czisny.

 

[guanchi]

The whole opinion over "lines" comes from those who believe skating should be like ballet/dance. Watch a ballerina and you'll see how Mao has better lines than Yuna. It's not really subjective. Mao herself actually had quite a bit of ballet training (she studied ballet from age 3 to 9, when she turned to figure skating) and it shows. Yuna had practically no ballet training.

What I would contest is the whole worship of balletic forms or the idea that skating is just like ballet only with skating boots...but that would get us way off topic. In any case, I don't think Mao wuzrobbed just because she had better lines or carriage. There's a lot more to skating than that. Most of my favorite skaters are not balletic. I'm not a big fan of Sasha Cohen or Oksana or the more recent Mirai and Czisny.

I've heard that Mao had ballet training- but I don't see any of it in her skating, and if indeed it was only during her pre-adolescent years, then it's pretty much meaningless since you need to develop your dancing on pointe and beyond to truly be "balletic'. Look at Katherine Healy- you want balletic without exception, there you go. Unequalled turnout, layback... even if she did no triples, her balletic background is evident. Really don't see anything like that in Mao, Czisny, or Cohen- take any of these 3, let them train for 5 yrs in pure ballet, and they still won't make it any ballet competition, let alone in any reputable ballet company. So all this "ballet" is like skating talk, like you said, is just a bunch of hooey and a distraction.

Better yet, I bet if you asked any Russian ballet aficionado if they believe that the supposedly most "balletic" aformentioned skaters' skating resemble ballet in any form, they would laugh in your face. Watch youtube videos of real ballet- Mao, Czisny, and Cohen are not even in their league in any semblance of form nor competence. Jackson Haines aside, this whole ballet comparison is dead.

 

[DianaSelene]

To guanchi and Mathman: I have not seen the video yet so I was not referring to Bezic. I did not know that guanchi would get so overprotective about Kim. I get it- you like her. I am finished with the conversation.

 

[guanchi]

^^ Hey, hey this is just spirited discussion- no hard feelings, and let the robberies continue !

 

[blue dog]

Actually I think Joannie should've won in 2010... it would've made a way more emotional impact news headline...

I concur, although maybe Mirai winning would've made it interesting, too.

I almost argued for Sasha 2006, but both she and Slutskaya opened the door and rolled out the red carpet for Shizuka, who skated fairly well.

 

[100yen]

:scratch: guanchi, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that ballet as a comparison is "dead"...

When people refer to "balletic" skating I don't think they don't mean the strictest, tightest, most old-fashioned way of looking at ballet (completely different from skating by principle anyway, ballet can never be skating because it's not on the ice and vice versa)--I take it that they mean a skater has superior lightness, flexibility, lines, and ease. I do not think it was anyone's intention to offend ballet "aficionados" by making these comparisons, but rather say a skater has the spirit or fluidity of a ballerina dancing.

I would be sad to see Mao, Sasha, or Alissa drop out of skating to train for ballet for 5 years Simply because they do not need it--they have developed their own unique beauty on the ice, just as a ballerina naturally adapts her movements to being on ground. It's also quite a shame that you don't recognize the many years of hard dance/movement/flexibility training these girls had to go through as many skaters aspire and train to get those kind of lines. And yes, some skaters just do not have very nice posture, free leg position or flexibility which is what sets the three you targeted (as well as others) out from the rest.

And what is ballet without emotion anyway? What is ballet but a storytelling art at its very heart? What is ballet if it can't change, adapt, or be innovated upon? Dance, as all things, changes with its environment.
Skating is a strange world where one must always keep an open mind.

 

[Skater Boy]

I second that!

I third that! Wow, I was afraid I would be shot for saying B and S deserved gold.

 

[Skater Boy]

Well, FlattFan would have personally given Mao gold with a clean Bells--but he/she didn't say that Mao would have scored higher than Yuna with a clean skate (that's a different argument). That music and choreography turns me off, though. A clean Bells would be technically superior with two 3Axels (never mind the missing Lutz or Salchow), but I doubt the judges would have scored it any higher than maybe 10 to 15 points. Still not enough as you say.

The ladies competition in Vancouver was hardly a wuzrobbed moment except for the most ardent Mao fans. If any lady wuzrobbed of a higher placement it might have been Mirai, or even Rachel with those Flip downgrades. But there were far more controversial ones like the men's competition.

I know Mirai was clean but I don't think she could have moved up any more. Remember if anything the issue was did Rochette win silver - look at the scores. Mirai was pleasant bu she totally did not skate with heart or understand Carmen imho. She skated well but not the power of Rochette to get the pcs and she smiled like a miss america rather than interpreted Carmen. I think Mira would have been hard pressed to move up any further = Joannie is more like Kostner - amazing power even if you don't like their skating there is power and speed which equates to pcs = Mirai was another graceful American skater like Kerrigan, trenary, kadavy, Frantiane, Lisa Marie Allen, Kristi Yamaguchi etc.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Actually. I think maybe it was the best ladies' Olympic performance ever. Better than Arakawa's, better than Hughes', better than Tara's, better than Oksana's, better than Kristi's, better than Witt's,...

To me, Yu-Na's Olympic performance was artistically inferior to every single performance you just listed. For real. There was no spontaneity to it, too many pointless CoP moves, and not a single piece of choreography that creates a feeling of the sublime. Look at Yu-Na's ina bauer going into the 2Axel-2Toe-2Loop combination, for example. That move actually goes against the music and has no impact. It was simply a "transition". Everything in the program was built around gaining technical points. The worst offender is the confused footwork sequence that was void of connection to the music, had no sense of cohesiveness, and took up an entire 30 seconds. Sure, Yu-Na executed everything in the program with a perfect polish and what she accomplished is a feat virtually no other skater could ever match, but it was not a performance. It was a routine.

 

[dorispulaski]

Although the music Orser used was indeed The Bolt by Shostakovich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bolt_(Shostakovich)

Orser certainly wasn't acting out the story of the ballet, which is about a plot to stick a bolt in factory machinery in the Soviet Union. He was portraying a military theme, marching in formal goosestepping style and getting shot.

 

[cosmos]

^^ Yup, absolutely. It was Bezic's opinion, and lol at everyone throwing around "the best skate ever" or the "greatest olympic performance ever" when it never was said.
And sorry Tonichelle, I will tone it down as a newbie, and NEVER write walls of text, which are worse imo than spirited, short discussions.

The Canadian CTV commentator's opinion was "One of the greatest free skates in Olympic history. I doesn't get better!"

 

[seniorita]

I love Mao Oly performance because she surpassed herself, if you remember she had a very bad season start and to be able to do what she did in Olys is really admirable and beyond medals. Same Joannie for different reasons.

I would argue that Yuna's performance was not better than Arakawa's or Witt's on the emotional impact, but anyway

Anyway is wuzrob a real verb. I learnt it here but people use it in general or is made by fans? you can say I wuzrob, you wuzrob, he/she wuzrobs etc ?

 

[plushyfan]

I don't think Mao was robbed. Emily Frankel is a well known dancer/novelist/playwright/critic. She was artist in residence at the University of Michigan when she did this broadcast.

Ms. Frankel says, "I think that "Mayo" Asada should have won the gold medal. I know that Asada is the better dancer." She also says that Yu-na Kim is a fine performer and perhaps projects better to the audience than Mao.

But this was a skating contest, not a dance recital. Kim skated better. Ms. Frankel never addressed the question of who skated better, and probably lacks the expertise to do so, whatever her qualifications to judge other performing arts.

I agree, of course. Yuna skated better, that was a well-deserved victory. But Mao's movements are much more beautiful for me, like for Emily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJhX_uRuReA

 

[Serious Business]

Well, I, for one, completely loved Yuna's Olympic free skate. Yes, Mao absolutely has better lines (in fact she has some of the best lines among skaters around her level), while Yuna has really so-so lines among her peers. But to me, Yuna's free skate was a triumph of flourishes both subtle and grand, serene and ecstatic. It reminded me of Kwan's Lyra Angelica, except with an extra dose of flirtatiousness. One of my favorite moments from the entire piece is the footwork into miming piano-playing right into her triple salchow and right back into footwork. It was a program where her moves and her speed built with every crescendo. It's a piece about pure joy, and Yuna communicated that thoroughly and made me feel it.

 

[Olympia]

I love Mao Oly performance because she surpassed herself, if you remember she had a very bad season start and to be able to do what she did in Olys is really admirable and beyond medals. Same Joannie for different reasons.

I would argue that Yuna's performance was not better than Arakawa's or Witt's on the emotional impact, but anyway

Anyway is wuzrob a real verb. I learnt it here but people use it in general or is made by fans? you can say I wuzrob, you wuzrob, he/she wuzrobs etc ?

No, Seniorita, wuzrobbed is a made-up verb that is the exclusive property of disappointed but impassioned sports fans. I imagine it's used in baseball and other sports as well as skating, though of course as a skating fan I would love to claim sole possession of it on our behalf! It's a more picturesque way of forming was robbed by blending together the verb and participle. (Or smooshing them together if we want to get even more linguistically flavorful.)

ETA: And there's no change of verb form for singular and plural in this expression. So in the case of a skating pair, they wuzrobbed.

I don't know if one can compare performances quantitatively, but despite your very helpful detailed analysis, Blades (which I'm going to use as a guide when I go back and review YuNa's performance; thanks!), I do think that YuNa's long program was at least one of the best Olympic skates ever. I feel this because she didn't hold back, and she did all the jumps she needed to do and was expected to do, at their maximum level of proficiency. That triple-triple just sailed! I love Shizuka and am thrilled with her Olympic performance, but she did her triple-triples only in practice, for example. YuNa was under unbelievable stress, largely due to her position as Korea's sole skating superstar (the only one in history, to make the pressure more intense). Certainly the other skaters mentioned in this comparison (Tara, Oksana, et al) did a gold-medal job, and I don't want to compare, but on that night in Vancouver, YuNa laid down something spectacular. I say this not as a defender of YuNa (she needs no defense from me!) but as a fan of both YuNa and Mao. They both rose to the occasion in Vancouver--two of the greatest skaters ever, and they both achieved their very best--but YuNa did it just that much better, and her gold was well deserved. Another of those nights one wishes there could have been a tie, though!