Will Mao Asada Make It to the 2018 Games?

[4everchan]

harding was amazing... but got crazy

Damn! don't know much about Harding because of her nasty crime but those three are some real skaters out there! Still dreaming of Liza doing a 4T+3T because of her brilliant 3t-3t

 

[MiRé]

Yet you have Yuna who can't do 3loop! much less 3loop as back end of a combo...oh did i mention she can never ever do a 3 axel? yeah. thought so.

Seems like I'm talking to a lot of brick walls lately :sarcasm:

 

[iamchrislao]

Oh, is that so? I didn't know walls could give credit where credit is due.

Seems like I'm talking to a lot of brick walls lately :sarcasm:

 

[dorispulaski]

Whether Mao will qualify for the 2018 Olympic Games will depend a lot on what rule changes are made by the 2017-18 season.

The following rule changes might help her, for example:

1. Institution of a rule that punishes excessive prerotation more stringently. (This would disadvantage other skaters more than Mao)
2. A bonus for being able to do all types of triples. (she is the only Japanese lady doing all of them at thus time)
3 A rule to better characterize what constitutes an acceptable 3 loop as the second jump of a combination. Current rules have made the loop as the second jump of a combination an endangered species.
4. More credit for more powerful, big jumps versus little jumps

The rules on underrotation and edge calls are about as tough as they can be, so with respect to jumps, rule changes will leave Mao in the same place or better off while some other skaters could see some severe effects on their scores.

 

[hurrah]

Whether Mao will qualify for the 2018 Olympic Games will depend a lot on what rule changes are made by the 2017-18 season.

The following rule changes might help her, for example:

1. Institution of a rule that punishes excessive prerotation more stringently. (This would disadvantage other skaters more than Mao)
2. A bonus for being able to do all types of triples. (she is the only Japanese lady doing all of them at thus time)
3 A rule to better characterize what constitutes an acceptable 3 loop as the second jump of a combination. Current rules have made the loop as the second jump of a combination an endangered species.
4. More credit for more powerful, big jumps versus little jumps

The rules on underrotation and edge calls are about as tough as they can be, so with respect to jumps, rule changes will leave Mao in the same place or better off while some other skaters could see some severe effects on their scores.

If only that would happen.... But ISU simply doesn't want to recognize that Mao is the best skater in the field. Those bullies!! :scowl:

 

[nolangoh]

3. A rule to better characterize what constitutes an acceptable 3 loop as the second jump of a combination. Current rules have made the loop as the second jump of a combination an endangered species.

Totally agree. +3Lo is already rare even in 6.0 era and it is such a beautiful combo, the FLOW throughout the jumps is gorgeous.

In addition to combo jump, do you think there should be a "combination bonus" for combos? Like you can get 1 or 2 extra points for combination jumps with a +toeloop or +loop. For example, a +3Lo should get a 2 points bonus where a half loop combo should get like 1.5, and +3T should get 1 extra point. Because sometimes I really can't stand when a +3Lo combo is worth less than a point more than a +3T combo where it is so much harder.

 

[Skater Boy]

Whether Mao will qualify for the 2018 Olympic Games will depend a lot on what rule changes are made by the 2017-18 season.

The following rule changes might help her, for example:

1. Institution of a rule that punishes excessive prerotation more stringently. (This would disadvantage other skaters more than Mao)
2. A bonus for being able to do all types of triples. (she is the only Japanese lady doing all of them at thus time)
3 A rule to better characterize what constitutes an acceptable 3 loop as the second jump of a combination. Current rules have made the loop as the second jump of a combination an endangered species.
4. More credit for more powerful, big jumps versus little jumps

The rules on underrotation and edge calls are about as tough as they can be, so with respect to jumps, rule changes will leave Mao in the same place or better off while some other skaters could see some severe effects on their scores.

Well she can't do all the triples consistently or without edge issues yet - the lutz in particular.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If only that would happen.... But ISU simply doesn't want to recognize that Mao is the best skater in the field. Those bullies!! :scowl:

To be fair, the rule allowing 3A in the SP was passed solely to help Mao.

 

[nolangoh]

I think, as long as Lori is doing the SP and TAT is choreographing the FS, her programs will be unbeatable. This is like the Golden Team

 

[Mathman]

To be fair, the rule allowing 3A in the SP was passed solely to help Mao.

I am not at all sure about that. True, at the time Mao was the only skater positioned to take advantage of the new rule. But I think the ISU just wanted to acknowledge and accommodate then-present and future advances in technical achievement.

 

[MiRé]

Totally agree. +3Lo is already rare even in 6.0 era and it is such a beautiful combo, the FLOW throughout the jumps is gorgeous.

In addition to combo jump, do you think there should be a "combination bonus" for combos? Like you can get 1 or 2 extra points for combination jumps with a +toeloop or +loop. For example, a +3Lo should get a 2 points bonus where a half loop combo should get like 1.5, and +3T should get 1 extra point. Because sometimes I really can't stand when a +3Lo combo is worth less than a point more than a +3T combo where it is so much harder.

Depends on which combo youre doing. 3lz-3t is still more difficult than doing 3t-3lo or 3s-3lo. Giving additional points need to factor in the first jump in the combination as well. If Not, we're essentially giving even more incentives to do 3t-3t

 

[MaxSwagg]

To be fair, the rule allowing 3A in the SP was passed solely to help Mao.

It was absolutely fair. No 3A in SP is like telling the men they can't do a quad in the SP...

 

[RABID]

Whether Mao will qualify for the 2018 Olympic Games will depend a lot on what rule changes are made by the 2017-18 season.

The following rule changes might help her, for example:

1. Institution of a rule that punishes excessive prerotation more stringently. (This would disadvantage other skaters more than Mao)
2. A bonus for being able to do all types of triples. (she is the only Japanese lady doing all of them at thus time)
3 A rule to better characterize what constitutes an acceptable 3 loop as the second jump of a combination. Current rules have made the loop as the second jump of a combination an endangered species.
4. More credit for more powerful, big jumps versus little jumps

The rules on underrotation and edge calls are about as tough as they can be, so with respect to jumps, rule changes will leave Mao in the same place or better off while some other skaters could see some severe effects on their scores.

I would so love to see that. It would be back to the drawing board for so many skaters though and I fear judges would be pressured to downplay it or render it inconsequential in the scheme of things.

 

[sarama]

To be fair, the rule allowing 3A in the SP was passed solely to help Mao.

I think ISU was trying to get more ladies to learn/attempt the jump.... it just happened that for a LONG time Mao was the only one who benefitted from the rule

 

[Mathman]

It was absolutely fair. No 3A in SP is like telling the men they can't do a quad in the SP...

There is a reason, though, why triple Axels for ladies and quads for men were not allowed in the short program for many years after some skaters were capable of doing these elements routinely.

Originally the short program was intended to have all the skaters do the same elements and to be judged according as to which skaters did them best. What was "free" about the free program was that each skater individually could attempt whatever amazing feat that skater was capable of.

So for instance, a ladies' (and at one time, a men's) short program was required to include a double Axel, so that they could be judged as to who did the best double Axel, never mind whether that skater could do a triple Axel or not. That was a separate question, to be answered in the free program. Otherwise, why should there be two programs at all?

 

[MaxSwagg]

There is a reason, though, why triple Axels for ladies and quads for men were not allowed in the short program for many years after some skaters were capable of doing these elements routinely.

Originally the short program was intended to have all the skaters do the same elements and to be judged according as to which skaters did them best. What was "free" about the free program was that each skater individually could attempt whatever amazing feat that skater was capable of.

So for instance, a ladies' (and at one time, a men's) short program was required to include a double Axel, so that they could be judged as to who did the best double Axel, never mind whether that skater could do a triple Axel or not. That was a separate question, to be answered in the free program. Otherwise, why should there be two programs at all?

Yes. Except just as the free program isn't "free" anymore, the SP is far from a "technical program". Though I'm all for re-instituting required simpler elements in the SP.

 

[miki88]

Oh Mary quite contrary. I think Mao can beat everyone - baby Russians, American princesses, Carolina and her Japanese counterparts. She can do it with the 3A and if she can skate cleanly and consistently and not UR or mess up edges without the 3A. She has the programs and pcs - skating abilities. She is the class of a second class of good skaters. She is no Oksana Baiul musically, no consistent clean skating like Kwan, nor the consistent quality of Yuna but she has everything or enough to win if she can put it together. To the poster who said she has udnergone great personal struggles well so has every other skater she isn't that different. I mean she lost her mom but she has not had the funding issues of some, substance abuse, broken homes, lack of funding or federation support. She has not had the major injuries of some skaters. She does have a nice, pretty elegant package though. But I think part of the challenge is that she has some wakenesses which she tries to mask and it is nt easy sometimes.

Sure, everyone has personal challenges but the reason I brought that up is due to the timing of those challenges. If you saw Raf's interview, Mao found out about her mother's condition around 2008, it forced her to leave her coach at that time and return to Japan and this started a period where I suspect she was coaching herself. TAT was her official coach but it was on a part-time basis and TAT did not leave Russia. So yeah, I think this incident had profound effects on her skating and career. A lot of those things you mentioned happened earlier in the skater's career when a skater hasn't become famous yet. While they are preparing for the Olympics, their coaching relationships remained secure and they had good support. Usually, when a coaching situation and/or skater's training is disrupted before the Olympics, it has a negative effect (Michelle-Caroll breakup, Chan's breakup with his coach).

I believe all skaters have their own weaknesses and strengths, however, sometimes the system do not balance things out equally. For example, both Ito and Lynn could be said to be far superior to their rivals in some aspects yet could not overcome their weaknesses in figures. There are certain qualities of Mao's skating that are superior (carriage, extension, spin and spiral positions, steps) yet she is competing a system that magnifies her weaknesses in comparison to others.

 

[miki88]

Whether Mao will qualify for the 2018 Olympic Games will depend a lot on what rule changes are made by the 2017-18 season.

The following rule changes might help her, for example:

1. Institution of a rule that punishes excessive prerotation more stringently. (This would disadvantage other skaters more than Mao)
2. A bonus for being able to do all types of triples. (she is the only Japanese lady doing all of them at thus time)
3 A rule to better characterize what constitutes an acceptable 3 loop as the second jump of a combination. Current rules have made the loop as the second jump of a combination an endangered species.
4. More credit for more powerful, big jumps versus little jumps

The rules on underrotation and edge calls are about as tough as they can be, so with respect to jumps, rule changes will leave Mao in the same place or better off while some other skaters could see some severe effects on their scores.

Hmm, I wonder if these rules were put forth to target a skater like Satoko, most of these rules will hurt her the most.

 

[MiRé]

Sure, everyone has personal challenges but the reason I brought that up is due to the timing of those challenges. If you saw Raf's interview, Mao found out about her mother's condition around 2008, it forced her to leave her coach at that time and return to Japan and this started a period where I suspect she was coaching herself. TAT was her official coach but it was on a part-time basis and TAT did not leave Russia. So yeah, I think this incident had profound effects on her skating and career. A lot of those things you mentioned happened earlier in the skater's career when a skater hasn't become famous yet. While they are preparing for the Olympics, their coaching relationships remained secure and they had good support. Usually, when a coaching situation and/or skater's training is disrupted before the Olympics, it has a negative effect (Michelle-Caroll breakup, Chan's breakup with his coach).

I believe all skaters have their own weaknesses and strengths, however, sometimes the system do not balance things out equally. For example, both Ito and Lynn could be said to be far superior to their rivals in some aspects yet could not overcome their weaknesses in figures. There are certain qualities of Mao's skating that are superior (carriage, extension, spin and spiral positions, steps) yet she is competing a system that magnifies her weaknesses in comparison to others.

Then in what way can the system be balance to benefit all skaters? If I recall, changes post 2010 have benefited Mao the most rather than magnifying her weaknesses. 70% reduction on UR and allowing 3A in the SP ensured Mao would be a top finisher if she doesn't fall. You cannot blame the system for punishing falsely executed jumps/landings. Why is it that a jump should be rewarded a "high" amount when it is clearly done wrongly? Just because a program is pleasing to your eyes doesn't mean you ignore all the problems in the technical part of the program. Surely the general audience who doesn't know figure skating in depth will have hard time understanding such low scores for beautifully performed program, but sacrificing the legitimacy of the sport for audience gathering is equally wrong. It is also not fair for other skaters who've rotated all the jumps with correct edges. CoP has problems of itself such as not having an incentive for going say, 2 3-3 or 3Lo combos, but 6.0 has even more problems in that it fails to punish wrong jumps which I think should be addressed more since we're at a point where 7 triple program is the "norm." Plus, going for a hard jump is a risk itself. 3A is difficult, but if you want to be rewarded in CoP, you better jump that with no UR or fall because it's a point game, not who does the most difficult jumps.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I am not at all sure about that. True, at the time Mao was the only skater positioned to take advantage of the new rule. But I think the ISU just wanted to acknowledge and accommodate then-present and future advances in technical achievement.

The thing is that some person (or federation) has to push for a rule change; they don't happen randomly. Who would push for a rule change that helps exactly one skater? Would this change have happened when it did if no women were doing the 3A? I don't have a problem with the change because, personally, I think if you are brave enough to train a 3A you should be able to use it in place of an easier element. However, I don't think it's disputable that Mao was the reason for the change. Women still are not allowed to do a quad in the SP even though a skater has (technically) landed it in competition.