Your top programs from the last quad?

[Blades of Passion]

Yay, a top mention for Takahashi's mambo. I like how high you set the bar for what you want to see when considering a great program.

I know why you feel that Yuzuru's PW "doesn't touch you". It's because the choreography is built to gain points technical points, not to reflect the music at all times. His footwork sequence has excellent highlights but as a whole is too constricted and overlong to truly embody this rock&roll music. The program has good opening choreography and a stunning Triple Axel, but the spins in this program are just thrown in. It breaks the demeanor that is trying to be expressed. He's trying to be "a rocker" but then he is suddenly doing a donut camel spin with soft arm movements and then randomly going into a weird sit-change-sit spin afterward. It has no choreographic purpose and goes against the music. His final combination spin is similarly awkward because of all the random positions being attempted. It does not express the hard edge and defiance of rock&roll music.

 

[Meoima]

Yay, a top mention for Takahashi's mambo. I like how high you set the bar for what you want to see when considering a great program.
I know why you feel that Yuzuru's PW "doesn't touch you". It's because the choreography is built to gain points technical points, not to reflect the music at all times. His footwork sequence has excellent highlights but as a whole is too constricted and overlong to truly embody this rock&roll music. The program has good opening choreography and a stunning Triple Axel, but the spins in this program are just thrown in. It breaks the demeanor that is trying to be expressed. He's trying to be "a rocker" but then he is suddenly doing a donut camel spin with soft arm movements and then randomly going into a weird sit-change-sit spin afterward. It has no choreographic purpose and goes against the music. His final combination spin is similarly awkward because of all the random positions being attempted. It does not express the hard edge and defiance of rock&roll music.

Well, I don't think it has anything to do with choreography. I think it's more about personal taste. For example even though I love Dai I can't stand Mambo. Funny is that I dislike David Wilson, I love Garden of souls. And I like Yuzuru's PW very much and I see no problem with the choreoraphy of this short program. The only set back is that I can't stand the guitar drone for too long but it has nothing to do with the choreoraphy. the thing about personal taste is your explaination seems to work with you only.

 

[jace93]

Well, I don't think it has anything to do with choreography. I think it's more about personal taste. For example even though I love Dai I can't stand Mambo. Funny is that I dislike David Wilson, I love Garden of souls. And I like Yuzuru's PW very much and I see no problem with the choreoraphy of this short program. The only set back is that I can't stand the guitar drone for too long but it has nothing to do with the choreoraphy. the thing about personal taste is your explaination seems to work with you only.

:agree:

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

Ladies SP (best performances)
Yulia Don't give up on love (Worlds, Euro's, Team Event)
Yulia Sabre Dance (COC)
Mao 2014 SP (In general unless I like a skater, only specific performances of a program appeal to me. At 2014 Worlds Mao's SP was exquisite and unparalleled, but for repeated viewing the first two are still my top watched SPs.)

Ladies FS
Yulia Schindler's List (Team Event, Euro's, SC)
Yulia R&J (JR Worlds)
(I can't really come up with any others. I got interested in watching Ladies again because of Yulia and so I've tried watching others in the competitions but I've never really managed to finish any of the programs because they fall or I lose interest partway though. Any program that I've watched is generally forgettable even if I may have liked it at the time (Gracie & Polina at Nationals for example.)

Men's SP
Jeremy Abbott's SP 2014 (nationals)
Jason Brown SP2014 (nationals)
I don't watch the Men's event enough for a proper list.

Men's FS
Yuzuru's LP (Worlds 2014) When I knew he was behind after the SP, this particular skate grabbed my attention, the way he held onto the landing of the 4S was wonderful.
Patrick Chan LP (TEB 2013) This skate was flawless.
I don't know which performance it was because I watched it on a recap, but I think it was Patrick Chan's 2013 Canadian Nationals LP. I still remember how the commentator mentioned that he should have never been able to pull off the triple toe after the landing for the 4T seemed off yet somehow the combination still looked good.

I'll do the rest later.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well, I don't think it has anything to do with choreography.

Of course it does. The movement is the language and that language directly interacts with the music.

Personal taste is built upon what we understand. Everyone has different inclinations but taste always changes as you come to learn more.

Yuzuru's PW has wide appeal regardless of its many faults because it at least attempts to be fun and because it has big highlights. People who aren't looking for more can easily declare it as a great program because they had a good time with it; the weaker areas just get overlooked. If someone came along with a much better version of the program, and was able to execute it, then people would enjoy it a lot more. Instead of just saying "that's good", people would be going fanatic over it. This is exactly why skating has lost much of its draw, though. People want to be wowed. Just being good isn't enough to spark the kind of intense admiration that has been created by performers like Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Coldplay, or Beyonce.

 

[Florencito]

Well, let's see

Men
SP
1) P. Chan's Elegie in E Flat Minor
2) D. Takahashi's In the Garden of Souls
3) M. Brezina's Japanese Kodo Drums

FP
1) D. Takahashi's Blues for Klook
2) J. Abbott's Exogenis: Symphony part 3 (2011/12)
3) J, Fernandez's Charlie Chaplin

(Honorable mention to Brown's Reel around the Sun and Johnson's Eleanor Rigby)

Ladies
SP
1) A. Suzuki's Hymne a l'amour
2) E. Gedevanishvili's Schindler's List (her performance at 2012 SC was just breathtaking and so touching! Shame she never performed like that again)
3) Y. Kim's The Kiss of the Vampire (must be the only one to prefer it over Les Mis)

(Honorable mention to Asada's I got rhythm and Marchei's Torna a Surriento)

FP
1) A. Suzuki's O (Gosh, I'm SO gonna miss her!)
2) Y. Kim's Homage to Korea
3) V. Marchei's The Artist

Pairs
SP
1) Pang/Tong's Lady Caliph
2) Savchenko/Szolkowy's Korobushka
3)

FP
1) Savchenko/Szolkowy's Pina
2) Savchenko/Szolkowy's The Pink Panther
3) Berton/Hotarek's Poeta en el Viento

(Honorable mention ot Kavaguti/Smirnov's Clair de Lune and Sui/Han's Kalinka)

Ice Dance
SD
1) Davis/White's Giselle
2) Pechalat/Bourzat's Carnival in Rio
3) Cappellini/Lanotte's 42nd Street

FD
1) Hurtado/Diaz's Surviving Picasso
2) Weaver/Poje's Humanity in Motion
3) Crone/Poirier's Eleonor Rigby

(Honorable mention to Pechalat/Bourzat's The Litte Prince, Cappellini/Lanotte's La Strada, Gilles/Poirier's Hitchcock, Ilinykh/Katsalapov's Don Quixote, Virtue/Moir's Hip Hip Chin Chin, Davis/White's Il Postino, Hawayek/Baker's Amelie and I'm definitely forgetting some!)

 

[Meoima]

Personal taste is built upon what we understand. Everyone has different inclinations but taste always changes as you come to learn more.

I think what you are saying has more to do with your personal taste as well.

For example I studied classical music, I know what Chopin did with some of his most famous piece. With enough research I can tell which theme he borrowed from composer A or B, which melody was folk music. I can tell which music piece he wrote has good structure and which doesn't. But does that mean I think his music was great? No. Chopin is my least favorite composer. But many people like his music. I find his piano concertos boring and dreadful (especially the orchestration part) and call them poorly written. But does that make those pieces less of an art? People like it, moved by it and appreciate it, no matter how scholars called it poorly structured. That's art nevertheless.

When it comes to art, there is no right or wrong. I like Brahms's symphony 1 but many people hate it and call it a continuation of Beethoven's last symphony. That symphony has great structure and form, carefully written (it costed him 14 years to finish it). But still there are people don't appreciate it as a masterpiece no matter what the scholars have been saying how great it is. Tchaikovsky hated Brahms' music so much he called Brahms a giftless bastard. but many people prefer Brahms music philosophy over Tchaikovsky'a over-sentimental style. Does that make their music less of being art?

It's the same with you in this case. There are many programs that you show us and try to explain to us that they are great because of some spins or some movements to build up before big elements. But many people don't see it. They still say: "Yes, okay you think those programs are great in term of choreoraphy but we still don't like them. And those programs you call bad choreoraphy we kind of like them."

Just being good isn't enough to spark the kind of intense admiration that has been created by performers like Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Coldplay, or Beyonce.

PW is done for dead for 2 consecutive seasons. If people only look for wow they shouldn't have wowed for that long.

 

[Sandpiper]

Yay, a top mention for Takahashi's mambo. I like how high you set the bar for what you want to see when considering a great program.

I know why you feel that Yuzuru's PW "doesn't touch you". It's because the choreography is built to gain points technical points, not to reflect the music at all times. His footwork sequence has excellent highlights but as a whole is too constricted and overlong to truly embody this rock&roll music. The program has good opening choreography and a stunning Triple Axel, but the spins in this program are just thrown in. It breaks the demeanor that is trying to be expressed. He's trying to be "a rocker" but then he is suddenly doing a donut camel spin with soft arm movements and then randomly going into a weird sit-change-sit spin afterward. It has no choreographic purpose and goes against the music. His final combination spin is similarly awkward because of all the random positions being attempted. It does not express the hard edge and defiance of rock&roll music.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I get the sense from your posts that there's some "objective" standard for art. And people who feel differently--have different subjective opinions--are somehow "wrong" or only like what they like because they lack experience.

But in my opinion, two people can disagree about a program with neither of them being wrong. And the judgement of art should not be reserved to some "experienced elite"... especially when said experienced elite can't even agree amongst themselves. Your assertion that the "general audience" is disinterested also doesn't ring true. The audiences in Japan and Russia seem to be just fine. Figure skating's decline in North America has to do with more than just "lack of artistry in programs."

I do agree with you that there are elements of art we can analyze and judge. And I really like discussing those, so perhaps we can talk about Yuzuru Hanyu's donut spin in PW. I agree with you that it doesn't work with the rocker music and detracts from that aspect of the performance. That doesn't, however, mean that the performance as a whole is automatically better without the donut. Maybe seeing a man perform a donut spin is very memorable for some people (though it's less unique these days than before), and that outweighs its disjointed relationship with the music. Therefore, for that person, the program works better with the donut. For others, not so much. (I'm personally indifferent about donut/no-donut in PW--I like donut spins, but I agree it doesn't fit the music, so it just cancels itself out. )

 

[Wo|flax]

Just being good isn't enough to spark the kind of intense admiration that has been created by performers like Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Coldplay, or Beyonce.

Sorry but, somehow, one of these things is not like the others

 

[Wo|flax]

Yay, a top mention for Takahashi's mambo. I like how high you set the bar for what you want to see when considering a great program.

I know why you feel that Yuzuru's PW "doesn't touch you". It's because the choreography is built to gain points technical points, not to reflect the music at all times. His footwork sequence has excellent highlights but as a whole is too constricted and overlong to truly embody this rock&roll music. The program has good opening choreography and a stunning Triple Axel, but the spins in this program are just thrown in. It breaks the demeanor that is trying to be expressed. He's trying to be "a rocker" but then he is suddenly doing a donut camel spin with soft arm movements and then randomly going into a weird sit-change-sit spin afterward. It has no choreographic purpose and goes against the music. His final combination spin is similarly awkward because of all the random positions being attempted. It does not express the hard edge and defiance of rock&roll music.

I agree that PW is far from perfect, there are parts which get carried by his charisma alone.
But I don't think this is 'hard edge' 'defiance' type rock music; this is 'cool' music, with a 'smooth' tone to it. And the whole program, choreo is built around coolness, and that's why it works so well for him. That's also why I always thought the donut spin works for it. (and the broken leg as well, though the back-to-back spins may be a problem)

 

[Meoima]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I get the sense from your posts that there's some "objective" standard for art. And people who feel differently--have different subjective opinions--are somehow "wrong" or only like what they like because they lack experience.)

thank you for pointing it out. about experience, let's say that even music scholars are still arguing over many music pieces from the old time. They are scholars still they have preference as well. Stravinsky, for example, hated Mozart. did he lack experience with music? no.

And yes, you have another good point. The audience in Japan and Russia seem to adapt to the new programs just fine. Do most of them lack experience with FS? I don't think so. And I don't think audience in North America have more experience with FS than the Russian in term of appreciating good art.

 

[Sandpiper]

I agree that PW is far from perfect, there are parts which get carried by his charisma alone.
But I don't think this is 'hard edge' 'defiance' type rock music; this is 'cool' music, with a 'smooth' tone to it. And the whole program, choreo is built around coolness, and that's why it works so well for him. That's also why I always thought the donut spin works for it. (and the broken leg as well, though the back-to-back spins may be a problem)

Interesting you point this out. Kurt Browning said something very similar on the CBC Olympic broadcast: About how Yuzuru's style is very cool, smooth, and laid-back. I actually tend to agree with Blades of Passion on this particular point, but I think the "cool rock" vibe is a valid interpretation of the program, and another reason someone else might prefer PW with a donut rather than without. No one is wrong.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But I don't think this is 'hard edge' 'defiance' type rock music; this is 'cool' music, with a 'smooth' tone to it. And the whole program, choreo is built around coolness, and that's why it works so well for him. That's also why I always thought the donut spin works for it. (and the broken leg as well, though the back-to-back spins may be a problem)

All rock music is defiant. There's definitely a hard edge here too - straining electric guitars? You're right that the music is cool, in the sense that it is evoking the feeling of "being cool." This means effortless and unfussy. That's not the feeling created by grabbing your leg, pulling it up to your head, and holding it there for quite some time, while lyrically waving your hand in the air.

Form. Function. Movement and the shapes you make mean something. It's a language. When a human being is feeling happy, they don't frown and tell someone they're sad. That would be an incorrect conveyance of emotion.

Most of this is subconsciously understood. Preferring "Firebird" or "Claire de Lune" is beside the point. What matters is that you clearly feel different things from these pieces of music. Therefore, whenever someone is dancing, you would expect different movement depending on what the music is. So again I say - Yuzuru's PW program betrays the music at many points. Perhaps you like it or even love it, but I contend that it could be better still. Sandpiper (or whoever else) can't just come in here and say "it's all personal." No it isn't. Nobody listens to a middle-school orchestra's attempt at Mozart and says it's better than the original. There are discernible differences you notice that make it inferior. If you've only ever heard the middle-school version then of course you'll still appreciate it (well, let's assume they are decent LOL), but you're not getting the full impact you possibly could.

 

[Meoima]

All rock music is defiant. There's definitely a hard edge here too - straining electric guitars? You're right that the music is cool, in the sense that it is evoking the feeling of "being cool." This means effortless and unfussy. That's not the feeling created by grabbing your leg, pulling it up to your head, and holding it there for quite some time, while lyrically waving your hand in the air.

I don't think the judges and casual viewers find PW less "cool" just because of Yuzuru grabbing his leg and pulling it up to his head. For example many music lovers don't find it too bothersome when pianists use too much pedal while performing Chopin's Torrent etude.

Form. Function. Movement and the shapes you make mean something. It's a language. When a human being is feeling happy, they don't frown and tell someone they're sad. That would be an incorrect conveyance of emotion.

Let's take a look at music. Minor keys are usually sad keys, but there are exceptions. Many composers use major keys to describe sadness. And many people feel "light and hopeful" with minor keys. It's the same with any kind of art. You can't just say "he shouldn't use donut spin in with this music because "I think many people don't feel that this spin is cool". There are always exceptions. It's the same when I said "Chopin's piano concertos are week in orchestration and should have been better" but many people just loveeeeeeeeeee them. And to be frankly, all the great art has flaws.

Most of this is subconsciously understood. Preferring "Firebird" or "Claire de Lune" is beside the point. What matters is that you clearly feel different things from these pieces of music. Therefore, whenever someone is dancing, you would expect different movement depending on what the music is. So again I say - Yuzuru's PW program betrays the music at many points. Perhaps you like it or even love it, but I contend that it could be better still. Sandpiper (or whoever else) can't just come in here and say "it's all personal." No it isn't. Nobody listens to a middle-school orchestra's attempt at Mozart and says it's better than the original. There are discernible differences you notice that make it inferior. If you've only ever heard the middle-school version then of course you'll still appreciate it (well, let's assume they are decent LOL), but you're not getting the full impact you possibly could.

Well, for the record, orchestra in Mozart's era hasn't developed to the point of nowaday orchestration. I am sure if we had a time machine and came back to Mozart's days, we might be astonished to find that many of their "top" musicians and "orchestra" of that time had not as good technique as musician nowadays. Some might even sound just as middle-school orchestras.

And I've noticed you put Dai's Moonlight Sonata as one of the best SP of the last quad, but as a fan of Dai, I have to say I couldn't disagree with you more. For me, Dai's Moonlight Sonata was a failure to him, if we compare this program to other SP he has done. I am not an expert when it comes to choreography so I will not try to make some analyzation. But as a person who has lived with this piece for years (days in piano competition and everyone just played this same piece), I see no hightlight in this SP. If it hadn't been for Dai who performed it, I would't watch it otherwise. Overall the choreography was so dull (and it's not Dai's fault). I have the feeling Nikolai Morozov didn't even understand the background of Beethoven piano sonata no 14 when he chroeographed it. It is an unusual sonata but people have made it into a cliché IMO.

 

[Interspectator]

Isn't Parisiene Walkways more Bluesy Jazz than plain rock? It sounds less angry and more cool.
'Rock Music' may be defiant, but this particular piece of music sounds like a musician showing off...which is the whole point of blues and jazz to my mind.
Therefore, for me, Hanyu is showing off his various tricks in time to the music. 'I bet you can't do this!' -sort of thing. Matches perfectly.

 

[Alba]

Just being good isn't enough to spark the kind of intense admiration that has been created by performers like Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Coldplay, or Beyonce.

Can't stand Coldplay and Beyonce, and certainly not even close to The Beatles or Presley for me.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Let's take a look at music. Minor keys are usually sad keys, but there are exceptions. Many composers use major keys to describe sadness. And many people feel "light and hopeful" with minor keys. It's the same with any kind of art. You can't just say "he shouldn't use donut spin in with this music because "I think many people don't feel that this spin is cool". There are always exceptions.

Yes, you can of course use elements in different ways. There are principles that always hold true, though. When John Williams was writing the music for Schindler's List, he didn't try to use jazz to describe the holocaust. Similarly, when you are skating to an electric guitar that is conveying a clear driving rhythm, it makes little sense to do a donut position (with a slightly titled line) and hold it for 8 revolutions. That simply does not convey the feeling of being extroverted and casually showing off. By contrast, look at how good his entrance into that flying spin is with the music. It clearly works with the build that is happening. The problem comes afterward - the music has hit a crest and, instead of riding it like a wave, the choreography gives us a bunch of distracting positions and changes of position. This is of course there solely because he's trying to get technical points. In terms of actually following the music and performing, it would have worked better if he just held that initial camel position (adding a couple arm movements for nuance) and then exited in time with the guitar riff and continued skating.

 

[Interspectator]

Yes, you can of course use elements in different ways. There are principles that always hold true, though. When John Williams was writing the music for Schindler's List, he didn't try to use jazz to describe the holocaust. Similarly, when you are skating to an electric guitar that is conveying a clear driving rhythm, it makes little sense to do a donut position (with a slightly titled line) and hold it for 8 revolutions. That simply does not convey the feeling of being extroverted and casually showing off. By contrast, look at how good his entrance into that flying spin is with the music. It clearly works with the build that is happening. The problem comes afterward - the music has hit a crest and, instead of riding it like a wave, the choreography gives us a bunch of distracting positions and changes of position. This is of course there solely because he's trying to get technical points. In terms of actually following the music and performing, it would have worked better if he just held that initial camel position (adding a couple arm movements for nuance) and then exited in time with the guitar riff and continued skating.

I thought the donut spin was very cool and did not detract from the music, I also think other spins could have been used instead, or even interchanged, but this is the program he skated and I loved his changes of positions.
It clashes with your sense of what is 'right' for the music, and everyone is entitled to an opinion on that. But, do principles that ALWAYS hold true include "Never do a donut spin to rock music"? We must have missed the memo.
This program does garner a lot of technical points, but it is also very entertaining to watch, full of character and style...and, in my opinion, follows the music quite closely. Maybe not 100%, but it's close enough to suit me.
It is in my top programs for the last quad because it checked all the boxes technically and artistically for me.

 

[starlight97]

Ok.... to maybe get away from this discussion about "What kind of spins and movements is a skater allowed to do to Rock/Jazz/"cool" music, which is a very absurd one to me:

Do you guys feel like your choices for favorite programs are influenced by the skater who skates them or are you very objective when it comes to that?
For example I recently realized that I liked every single program of Yuna Kim (eventhough there are defiantly some that weren't that outstanding). But I can't help liking her programs.
On the other hand I'm completely aware of the greatness and beauty of Mao's 2013/2014 programs, but they would never make my list, because I'm not a fan of her skating style.

So do you guys purely judge the program or does the skater influence you?

 

[Interspectator]

Ok.... to maybe get away from this discussion about "What kind of spins and movements is a skater allowed to do to Rock/Jazz/"cool" music, which is a very absurd one to me:

Do you guys feel like your choices for favorite programs are influenced by the skater who skates them or are you very objective when it comes to that?
For example I recently realized that I liked every single program of Yuna Kim (eventhough there are defiantly some that weren't that outstanding). But I can't help liking her programs.
On the other hand I'm completely aware of the greatness and beauty of Mao's 2013/2014 programs, but they would never make my list, because I'm not a fan of her skating style.

So do you guys purely judge the program or does the skater influence you?

Liking a skater's style certainly affects my judgement.
For example Patrick Chan's style is not one I like a lot, but I can clearly see his skill in skating and even why others really love his programs. But they won't make it into my top 3 program picks.
At the same time I don't like ALL programs even from my favorite skaters. I will always enjoy watching them because of their style, but I won't blindly love all their performances. And some skaters fall in between.