Zagitova edges out Medvedeva for Oly Gold

[qwertyskates]

look right before the final pose, she strokes her body with the hand and part of her dress changes to black (but it's hard to notice)

Thank you, indeed it's barely noticeable!

 

[lappo]

look right before the final pose, she strokes her body with the hand and part of her dress changes to black (but it's hard to notice)

Did they get inspiration from Dina Averina Swan Lake for the change of dress perhaps?

 

[Vanshilar]

I would also like to see her do 3Sal+3Loop combo

Incidentally, looking through the results, it seems like Alina was the only Lady who did a triple loop out of another jump. (Adam Rippon was the only Man.) This makes the +3Lo as rare as a triple axel for the Ladies in this Olympics.

 

[yume]

And i think that at previous olympics Mao was the only lady with 3A and a -3lo combo.

 

[colormyworld240]

Do you mean Zhenya got higher GOEs? Because I'm almost positive Alina had a higher TES. You make lots of great points but I don't agree that Alina is the better skater under this system. I think Alina has benefited from Zhenya having the success that she did before her. Alina's PCS in juniors were already higher than Zhenya's were at the same point in her trajectory. I think that is just plain wrong, criminally so to be honest. People have complained for years that Zhenya's scores are too high, but Alina has been primed and groomed for this very moment IMO.

Some people only think Zhenya is "artistic" in comparison to Alina and don't think she is even that special, PCS-wise. But I beg to differ. Zhenya is an exceptionally lovely and musical skater and I have always loved her style and interpretation on the ice from the first time I saw her at the 2014 Junior Grand Prix Final and fell in love. There was just something special about that girl.

Yes, I'm talking about GOEs. For as overscored as Alina was in PCS, Evgenia was in GOE (resulting in higher TES). If both were to scale down, Alina would still come out the winner.

 

[jaylee]

And i think that at previous olympics Mao was the only lady with 3A and a -3lo combo.

Only in Sochi. In Vancouver, Mao attempted 3As but no -3lo combo.

 

[colormyworld240]

Also, my debate is not about TES. Only PCS as this is where I feel they have not been scored properly in regard to each other.

About inflation--that used to be an argument just made about the Olympics themselves. Now it's about the entire season? And is this a recent development (say the last 8 years or so) or has it always been a known thing that the Olympic season brings inflation? Everyone should recall the outcry over Sotnikova's sudden score increases at the Sochi Olympics compared to what she got even at Europeans the previous month. However, Zagitova actually scored HIGHER at Europeans in the long program both in TES and PCS. Her PCS in Moscow was 75.30 compared to the slightly less generous 75.03 the other night.

Back to what I said before about my fascination at how they were scored as Juniors and what we can learn from it, if anything..

At 2015 Junior Worlds Medvedeva scored 59.21 TES and 59.21 PCS for a TSS of 124.49.
At 2017 Junior Worlds Zagitova scored 75.81 TES and 62.21 PCS for a whopping TSS of 138.02.

IMO Medvedeva was much better artistically but she received 3 points fewer in PCS. The disparity between the scores of these two gold medal winning Junior World programs couldn't be more apparent. And if you watched the actual performances, they would align with these scores only in some kind of weird fantasy universe. It really couldn't be more clear that Zagitova's marks have been shot out of a cannon going for the moon. :rofl2: But next you're going to tell me that there is inflation at the Juniors in pre-Olympic years as well. And that it's a known thing. Or maybe just maybe Zagitova was being set up for the OGM.

Except you cannot only talk about PCS when you're talking about who should win, which is ultimately what this thread is about. You cannot apply the "if they were scored in a more fair way then this person would only get this" to only PCS, You have to do so for both.

 

[yume]

Only in Sochi. In Vancouver, Mao attempted 3As but no -3lo combo.

I was talking about Sochi. The plural is confusing.

 

[gravy]

Evgenia really missed out by not adapting her Sailor Moon exhibition into a competitive free skate. Would've easily gotten an 80.00 in PCS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riHSCgHYUUc

 

[lyverbird1]

This heated ballet discussion has been most entertaining an informative.

 

[Fresca]

I guess I'm completely puzzled by your comments about skating being similar to ballet "plie-ing" - it's not, because of the use of very different muscle groups in ballet and in skating due to the different types of movements for both.

I'm a dancer, not a skater. Plie to me is a bending and straightening of the knee whether on the floor or on the ice. So to me, stroking requires plie. If you don't like that, I can say instead soft knees. I can't comment on the differences between the muscle groups used in ballet vs. skating. However, in terms of choreography and movement visually, there are many things skaters can do that mimic ballet.

I'm also surprised that you think flamenco's arms, hands, wrists show... soft, delicate ease of movement??? They are anything but...they are strong, angular ("blocky") and staccato.

I said that ballet requires soft, delicate ease of movement and that flamenco arms require ballet-like characteristics to the arm movements. It's required in the slow controlled fluid movement of the arms leading from the elbows into the various flamenco arm positions taken from ballet and in the softness and articulation of the circular hand movements of the wrists and fingers (those flores and filigranas you mentioned).

Everything else.

I'm not critiquing the choreography at all. I can see the ballet in the choreography- the Swan Lake in the SP and the Kitri choreography in the LP. I'm critiquing Alina's execution of it. I thought her arm movements were sloppy and showed a lack of control for the reasons I explained above. Expressiveness, fluidity, coordination in the arms, hands, wrists, the articulation of the fingers as in Russian ballet requires a control which she did not display.

 

[qwertyskates]

Thanks for your reply and we both have to agree to disagree.

I do agree that both plie and stroking involves knee bend ...but differently..for plie into ballet moves, the momentum is to bend down to prepare to bounce upwards, off the floor, vertically, sideways, forward, backward, etc, usually with both legs at the same time, and always from one of the 5 positions...but stroking is more of leg muscles bearing down on the ice, one leg then the other, pressing down, the pressure propelling speed into the blades. That's also how you carve figures/lines into the ice. Ballet leaves no horizontal marks on the floor at all, as there is hardly any sliding/gliding motion, except maybe glissade,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bKPQ9omy5E

I think the skating motion is closer to cycling, ...:think:

Ballet is controlled from torso, but ice skating is mainly from hips to toes.

The only person I can think of trying to perform ballet on ice is Oksana Bauil wearing lots of feathers....but I don't like doing this tippy toe and fluttering trembling arms, swanning around the rink. The ballet I understand is very athletic, very controlled, very human-defying moves, though aesthetic and graceful. Not unlike ice skating as a sport.

I will disagree strongly about ballet only using soft arms movement, as the prima ballerina portraying Kitri has to learn the Spanish port de bras. The Spanish Kitri is young, feisty, fierce, passionate and flirtatious. She isn't a delicate flower as she fought for her happiness. Flamenco dance is also strong and fiery. I disagree that flamenco took from ballet - I'm almost sure flamenco originates from gypsy or Indian dance tradition? I need to check. It's the other way round, ballet borrows from flamenco to portray Spanish themed narratives.

The Vaganova classes prepare the higher grades with special Spanish arms classes just for the possibility of performing to Don Quixote and other Spanish roles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgz6vFTIqOE

Below...At 1:46 is where they crook their arm in front like Alina did, I know you dislike it, but this is a typical Spanish arm move:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Ix7iY0rBo

They are full of "crooked elbow and wrist action", and different from typical ballet "oval" port de bras classes. The future prima ballerinas have to learn different character portrayal.

Here's one about Kitri

http://www.pointemagazine.com/don-quixote-kitri-variation-choreography-2412811313.html

As for Alina, due to constant figure skating motion, which I explain is very different from ballet movements and muscle use, I don't think she can do the same repertoire of arm movements like in a real ballet, though there are many moments and poses in her DQ which are unmistakably from the ballet, when she places her arm on her hip, when she places her crooked right arm in front of her chest as if holding a fan, etc. I find her arms doing their own dance as mesmerizing to watch as her legs! If fans are interested they might even do screen shots of the p d 2 and shots of Alina doing similar poses to compare.

One pure Vaganova prima ballerina arm moment is her Ina Bauer and the flick of her wrists at the end. Another is after the mid-point when she flirtatiously floreos her arms. It's a moment when she is in a stable situation and can really pay that attention to the play of her arms, a small detail but I enjoy it so much.

Is she perfect like a real DQ p b? No. Did she bring a lot of Kitri in her artistry? Yes, as much as any figure skater could, under the circumstances of doing ice skating, unable to perform in ballet mode.

I'm going to end our little discourse here. I just have to say I share the same views as the judges who score her performance highly. You and others don't, and that's fine. Both sides should present the facts and opinions.

To me, I feel we are lucky to watch an attempt to portray DQ on ice this way, with so many details, with such a well-arranged score, coupled with the jumps galore finale. :luv17: And how many figure skaters can portray feisty Kitri, bring in sublime flexibility and do the jumps of Basilio? I don't think we will see another one for many many many years.

I'm happy to share more details if anyone wants to know more about Alina's artistry, but in PM mode please. I'm about done here.

 

[Fresca]

I do agree that both plie and stroking involves knee bend ...but differently..for plie into ballet moves, the momentum is to bend down to prepare to bounce upwards, off the floor, vertically, sideways, forward, backward, etc, usually with both legs at the same time, and always from one of the 5 positions...but stroking is more of leg muscles bearing down on the ice, one leg then the other, pressing down, the pressure propelling speed into the blades. That's also how you carve figures/lines into the ice. Ballet leaves no horizontal marks on the floor at all, as there is hardly any sliding/gliding motion, except maybe glissade,

Ballet is controlled from torso, but ice skating is mainly from hips to toes.

Doesn't sound that different to me from ballet...in plie, you also need to press down with your leg muscles into your feet. The muscles in the thighs, calves, and feet keep the hips turned out, the knees aligned with the feet, the feet pressed down onto the floor. They are constantly working against gravity when you plie to control the descent of the body down and the ascent up. Plie is not only used to bounce off the floor as in a jump. It is also used to land. It is done just as many times on 1 foot as 2. It is the beginning and ending of most movement in ballet or rather how you generate movement in ballet.

In ballet, hips and feet are also very important. You must have a strong core but you cannot do ballet without strong hips and feet. They control turnout, alignment, toe point, plie... They are the base on which the core supports the rest of the body. I imagine in figure skating you must have a strong core too...all figure skaters have great abs. If you look at the muscle makeup of ballet dancers and figure skaters, they don't seem that different.

The only person I can think of trying to perform ballet on ice is Oksana Bauil wearing lots of feathers....but I don't like doing this tippy toe and fluttering trembling arms, swanning around the rink. The ballet I understand is very athletic, very controlled, very human-defying moves, though aesthetic and graceful. Not unlike ice skating as a sport.

I'm not sure what ballet you like then because those tippy toe movements or bourrees and fluttering swan arms are classic Russian ballet and a direct reference to the original choreography of The Dying Swan.

I will disagree strongly about ballet only using soft arms movement, as the prima ballerina portraying Kitri has to learn the Spanish port de bras. The Spanish Kitri is young, feisty, fierce, passionate and flirtatious. She isn't a delicate flower as she fought for her happiness. Flamenco dance is also strong and fiery. I disagree that flamenco took from ballet - I'm almost sure flamenco originates from gypsy or Indian dance tradition? I need to check. It's the other way round, ballet borrows from flamenco to portray Spanish themed narratives.

The Vaganova classes prepare the higher grades with special Spanish arms classes just for the possibility of performing to Don Quixote and other Spanish roles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgz6vFTIqOE

Below...At 1:46 is where they crook their arm in front like Alina did, I know you dislike it, but this is a typical Spanish arm move:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Ix7iY0rBo

They are full of "crooked elbow and wrist action", and different from typical ballet "oval" port de bras classes. The future prima ballerinas have to learn different character portrayal.

Here's one about Kitri

http://www.pointemagazine.com/don-quixote-kitri-variation-choreography-2412811313.html

Flamenco borrowed from ballet the position of the arms from 1st to 5th and the movement through the positions. Yes it's not the full typical port de bras with the crooking of the elbows in front and the right hand on the hip. As I said I don't mind the choreography. However, it still requires the fluidity and softness of the arms in the large circular motions up and down and around. Those are ballet port de bras.

As for Alina, due to constant figure skating motion, which I explain is very different from ballet movements and muscle use, I don't think she can do the same repertoire of arm movements like in a real ballet, though there are many moments and poses in her DQ which are unmistakably from the ballet, when she places her arm on her hip, when she places her crooked right arm in front of her chest as if holding a fan, etc. I find her arms doing their own dance as mesmerizing to watch as her legs! If fans are interested they might even do screen shots of the p d 2 and shots of Alina doing similar poses to compare.

One pure Vaganova prima ballerina arm moment is her Ina Bauer and the flick of her wrists at the end. Another is after the mid-point when she flirtatiously floreos her arms. It's a moment when she is in a stable situation and can really pay that attention to the play of her arms, a small detail but I enjoy it so much.

Is she perfect like a real DQ p b? No. Did she bring a lot of Kitri in her artistry? Yes, as much as any figure skater could, under the circumstances of doing ice skating.

I'm going to end our little discourse here. I just have to say I share the same views as the judges who score her performance highly. You and others don't, and that's fine. Both sides should present the facts and opinions.

I'm happy to share more details if anyone wants to know more about Alina's artistry.

Yes we'll need to agree to disagree. At the end of the day, I did not see a swan in the SP nor did I see Kitri in the LP with those arm movements.

 

[chopinskate]

Thanks for all the ballet knowledge from the two of you!

 

[Fresca]

Thanks for all the ballet knowledge from the two of you!

I'll PM you where you can read more about ballet/dance and FS if you want to find out more.

 

[chopinskate]

I'll PM you where you can read more about ballet/dance and FS if you want to find out more.

That sounds great!

BTW, did you read the post about Nathan Chen that I wrote as a reply to you?

I don't remember exactly (and I am just a follower of ballet), but he seems hunched up at times. Not too pleasing to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBiar80RW0 Not the worst, but it looks weird.

Edit: yes, I am. (Around 2:08). Also, he's kind of weak in acknowledging the music there, but that's just part of FS I guess (getting drained of energy)

(It looks fine when he's moving, and he doesn't stick it out or anything, but IDK, just... looks hunch-y. His port-de-bras are phenomenal, so maybe I just think he doesn't have a "swan-like" neck)

Not a fan of the neck in opening poses here, either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Suvmb-Mhs

I think he needs to raise his chin up to make it look better (for me). (Also, maybe I should start saying head/neck placement like you do, that's what I usually mean with Nathan's neck.)

 

[Fresca]

That sounds great!

BTW, did you read the post about Nathan Chen that I wrote as a reply to you?

I did. It's not perfect but it doesn't look egregious to me. His SP is better than his LP probably because he has more energy and pays more attention to pulling up than he does in his LP. We did discuss Nathan a lot in the link I will send you...

 

[Fresca]

I realize that I am taking these dance terms for granted but not everyone probably understands them. So, as there seems to be interest here about dance, here are some videos.

On arm movements and the Russian ballet style

These are Vaganova arms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6mbmxQN5qE

Here are how Vaganova arms are different. The clip below is a ballet dancer explaining what she needed to change when she started studying at the Bolshoi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxdQ-K5hGqU&t=134s

Vaganova uses the arms to aid in the execution of movement while continuously flowing from one position to the next. Alina's port de bras looks stunted as though she moves her arms to reach a position but moves to the next movement before she finishes to reach the full extension. I also don't find the movement fluid and controlled but rather blocky and haphazard. I'm talking about the quality of movement in her limbs. Not those flamenco flourishes. That's why I said she's sloppy.

The wrists and hands are elegant and distinct. There is a small break to the wrist which allows for more movement from the hands. However, the break should not be so pronounced as when the hands hang limply with dead fingers or there is too much tension in the wrists with leads to too much tension in the hand. That's Alina's problem - either her hands are dead with no shape to the fingers or there's too much tension. Hand placement is 4 fingers showing with the thumb tucked in continuing the line of the hand and the middle finger down toward each other and the ring and index finge raised. The fingers should be soft, not stiff. Not Alina's splayed out open thumbs, spiky fingers.

This is how a Bolshoi Kitri moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz6VgdUhDTE

This is how a Bolshoi swan moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaNPRMYOVRM

On flamenco arms. Caveat: I did a summer intensive on sevillanas, not flamenco but the upper body movement is very similar. You would have a different experience learning informally but this is how studios teach flamenco arms nowadays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAN-20nJi6Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BUCeG1IbFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOTxf4M64K8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np0IBfeU0jM

ETA: This was too lovely not to share. Putting it all together - what flamenco arms or braceos look like. You can see the movement of the arms through the positions in the first flamenco clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uUmyIVWXA

You can decide for yourself how successful/unsuccesful Alina was in her arm movements.

On ballet in general:

This is plie and why it is important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9TPtwhWJo&t=40

This is a bourree. Sometimes it is called a couru. Usually, bourree refers to these small gliding steps in 5th position while couru is in 1st. The dancer below is in 5th so I am referring to it as bourree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX4y-YNlybE

This is The Dying Swan which Oksana Baiul used as inspiration. It is a very famous Russian ballet choreographed for Anna Pavolova in 1905. It's become a staple. Probably every Russian prima ballerina has done a version of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIqh7x1oU2o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW3GAjAKges

 

[christinaskater]

I was the first to predict that Alina will win the Olympics! I’m so happy i bailed my predictions for the Top 5.

 

[j00mla]

I was the first to predict that Alina will win the Olympics! I’m so happy i bailed my predictions for the Top 5.

When did you do it? first prediction at Goldenskate that I remember is https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?62186-I-m-calling-it-Zagitova-for-Oly-Gold