2023-24 Grand Prix Final Senior Men Short Program

[icewhite]

Peaked too early in the season? He never did a full season of great competitions AFAR, and he was in a superb shape at the GP events.

He made one mistake. That happens. Last season was his first full out season - I can imagine with him being French and the Covid times he's having his life's peak later than some others - and he was injured at the end of that, although he still competed. We will see how he does in the free and later in the season, but I don't think you can draw much from one popped jump. He looked in good shape otherwise, not slow or tired.

 

[Mathman]

It seems like the only thing we can all agree on is the placements. The awarding of x number of points for this and that seems only to confuse the issue and provoke endless fights.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Catching up with the competition while browsing through the threads here.
When it comes to changing the rules, my first priority wouldn't be assigning a higher BV to the quad Axel but changing the required Axel jump in the SP to double, triple or quad. Skating a three or even four quad SP seems entirely possible when watching the jumping prowess of someone like Ilia.

 

[Demandred]

This was a really strong competition and great to watch, pretty much everyone delivered, Adam's popped quad was the only major mistake, not a single fall. Shoma, Yuma, Kevin and Adam were all brilliant in terms of presentation and Kao and Ilia were very good.

Fantastic 4A by Ilia, it isn't right that it's worth only 1 point more than a 4Lz. On the other hand, the judges compensated with an absurd PCS score for him, he really shouldn't be only half a point behind Adam, a point behind Kevin and Yuma and two points behind Shoma in PCS.

Adam's step sequence was the highlight of the event for me, it's always stunning.

 

[Isk]

He made one mistake. That happens. Last season was his first full out season - I can imagine with him being French and the Covid times he's having his life's peak later than some others - and he was injured at the end of that, although he still competed. We will see how he does in the free and later in the season, but I don't think you can draw much from one popped jump. He looked in good shape otherwise, not slow or tired.

Rather from his tendencies from previous seasons. Last season he had one big peak, he might have two this season. It's OK, a man can't be perfect at every competition, there have to be gaps. Actually, I didn't think about this today after the pop, I already thought about it, when I was watching him compete at his two events. Why get so excited, this is just my opinion, I thought we all have the right to express them here, no?

 

[icewhite]

It seems like the only thing we can all agree on is the placements. The awarding of x number of points for this and that seems only to confuse the issue and provoke endless fights.

Well, however there have been competitions this season where I thought it didn't matter in the end because someone would come out clearly on top in the free - but in the end it was very close. And then the points in the short matter.

It is also a question of principle that judges need to understand and apply the system correctly.

 

[icewhite]

Rather from his tendencies from previous seasons. Last season he had one big peak, he might have two this season. It's OK, a man can't be perfect at every competition, there have to be gaps. Why get so excited, this is just my opinion, I thought we all have the right to express them here, no?

Of course you can have your opinion, it was not meant harsh but just stating what I think about it. I'm not even a great fan of Adam, my heart is with Kevin first and Yuma secondly here. But I think he's underestimated already, likely because he's French and because he hasn't had the stellar juniors' career. And I just don't see a need to doubt a skater in a more general way because of one bad jump.

 

[Mathman]

Well, however there have been competitions this season where I thought it didn't matter in the end because someone would come out clearly on top in the free - but in the end it was very close. And then the points in the short matter.

It is also a question of principle that judges need to understand and apply the system correctly.

But we could also look at it this way. The IJS was put into place to cut down on the black eye that figure skating suffered after every competition. The judges cheated. The judges are biased. The judges are incompetant. What a stupid scoring system this ordinal judging baloney is. How dare judge # 3 give only a 5.6 to Sasha Cohen.

If this was indeed the goal, it has failed spectacularly. Twenty years later, nothing has changed.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

But we could also look at it this way. The IJS was put into place to cut down on the black eye that figure skating suffered after every competition. The judges cheated. The judges are biased. The judges are incompetant. What a stupid scoring system this ordinal judging baloney is. How dare judge # 3 give only a 5.6 to Sasha Cohen.

If this was indeed the goal, it has failed spectacularly. Twenty years later, nothing has changed.

It's not the IJS's fault that judges refuse to apply it correctly and insist on tying the PCS to the TES or fail to distinguish between the different program components. It really isn't that difficult. Watching the six skaters here, everyone with a sliver of objectivity should be able to see the difference in program components between Ilia and the top three. Likewise, everyone recognizes the difference between Ilia's tech content and the rest of the field.

 

[cheerknithanson]

And of course, arguing about scoring. Some things over the years have not changed.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

To be fair, i think all the skaters were over scored in components. When they gave Kevin as a first skater that PCS, they over scored all of them as a result. And sorry, i didnt see how Shoma is that much better in PE and CO comparing to Ilia, as Yuma too, except in the SS. When you are giving to Shoma 9.5 and to Yuma 9.25 you need to give Ilia at least 8.5, or in some components even 8.75 for what they put on the ice in these exact performances...
For that matter, my scores would be
Kao 8.25 8.25. 8.50
Ilia 8.50 8.75 8.25
Adam 8.75. 9.00 8.50
Kevin 9.00 9.00 8.50
Yuma 8.75 8.75 9.25
Shoma 9.00 9.25 9.25
Sorry, but none of them was equal with Yuzu 9.5 in components today, even it was a very good competition

 

[Jeanie19]

Marks

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Belgium judge gave a -5 to the 4A
Finnish, Canadian, Chinese and Slovakian judges had Malinin 1st
USA, Belgian and French judges had Uno 1st
Japanese and Korean judges had Kagiyama 1st

-5 for the 4A was really wrong.

 

[elektra blue]

Oh no, I don't want to divert this thread, but is that posted somewhere else? From an Italian new source?

so far it's been reported on russian new outlets, let's wait for an official statement

 

[Mathman]

Likewise, everyone recognizes the difference between Ilia's tech content and the rest of the field.

I don't know about that. It may be clear to "everyone" that Ilia's 4A is a stronger elemntt that Shoma's 4F, and that his 4Lz+3T is superior to Uno's 4T+3T. Everyone except the IJS, that is. The IJS says, naw, they're about the same. Maybe a 1.5 or a 2-point difference out of 106 total points.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I don't know about that. It may be clear to "everyone" that Ilia's 4A is a stronger elemntt that Shoma's 4F, and that his 4Lz+3T is superior to Uno's 4T+3T. Everyone except the IJS, that is. The IJS says, naw, they're about the same. Maybe a 1.5 or a 2-point difference out of 106 total points.

Ilia scored 4 points more in TES than Shoma and Yuma. Sounds about right to me.
And even so, the judges just need to apply the rules to, let's say, Shoma's 4F. GOE exists for a reason (which is not manipulating the scores as you please).

I believe the IJS would work perfectly in a world with truly unbiased judges. But we are all human, and even the judges with best intentions might have some subconscious biases and preferences, so...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't know about that. It may be clear to "everyone" that Ilia's 4A is a stronger elemntt that Shoma's 4F, and that his 4Lz+3T is superior to Uno's 4T+3T. Everyone except the IJS, that is. The IJS says, naw, they're about the same. Maybe a 1.5 or a 2-point difference out of 106 total points.

Its a 2.5 points difference, and i dont think it's a small difference. As it is not 3-4 points in components (in short), as someone may think too. Now, both Ilia 4A and Shoma 4F are not that perfect jumps to be fair, but if Ilia can jump his 4A with average +4 GOE, as Nathan could with his 4F that would make a difference. People are forgetting that GOE is connected with the BV of the element, so +2 comparing to +4 GOE for the 4A is a bigger difference in points just because the BV of the element is higher.. I mean, people complained how Zagitova won her Olympics by backloading all of her jumps, but in reality she was 'just' point or two higher than the rest of the field because of it. Trusova didn't win next Olympics even she jumped 5 quads (and 3A in her short) Only if you have an engaging overall performance cleanly done, those 'small' differences will pay out...

 

[YuBluByMe]

To be fair, i think all the skaters were over scored in components. When they gave Kevin as a first skater that PCS, they over scored all of them as a result. And sorry, i didnt see how Shoma is that much better in PE and CO comparing to Ilia, and especially not Yuma, except in the SS.

Agreed. It’s funny that fans always complain that judges fail to differentiate between the three PCS categories yet these same fans invariably make the exact same mistake. Ilia has the weakest skating skills in this field, but that doesn’t mean he deserves the lowest PCS nor does it mean there should be a huge difference between him and the other top guys. Three to five points difference in PCS in the SP is significant. I would rank him last in skating skills, fourth in both composition and performance. This would round off to probably fifth in PCS, which is exactly where he ended up anyway. One could argue about the gap, but then one would also need to argue that Ilia should also have more than four points on TES than Uno and Kagiyama anyway. (And this is irregardless of the base value of the 4A. I’m talking GOES in comparison to the others.) So the placements are correct.

 

[TontoK]

But we could also look at it this way. The IJS was put into place to cut down on the black eye that figure skating suffered after every competition. The judges cheated. The judges are biased. The judges are incompetant. What a stupid scoring system this ordinal judging baloney is. How dare judge # 3 give only a 5.6 to Sasha Cohen.

If this was indeed the goal, it has failed spectacularly. Twenty years later, nothing has changed.

IJS gave us all the opportunity to pinpoint our gripes about some skaters, while blithely ignoring potential gripes about our favorites.

For example, we can complain about Ilia Malinin's high PCS, and, at the same time, internally justify the GOE awarded to whatever jump that is that Shoma pretends to execute as a 4Flip.

 

[Isk]

Of course you can have your opinion, it was not meant harsh but just stating what I think about it. I'm not even a great fan of Adam, my heart is with Kevin first and Yuma secondly here. But I think he's underestimated already, likely because he's French and because he hasn't had the stellar juniors' career. And I just don't see a need to doubt a skater in a more general way because of one bad jump.

Fair enough, no problem. I don't know... I just had this feeling that he was doing so well -- almost too well -- during the GP and that he may have a down later. Last season he peaked at Euros, and then Worlds didn't go so well, there was two months to lose shape and regain it, so might not be enough for him. I may be wrong of course, and we'll see tomorrow and at later comps. This season I am with Kevin too, he does Bolero so well, I don't even mind it's been used so many times. Not really sure about Yuma -- he is great, nice smooth skating, 4S is awesome, the SP seems well constructed (the song is not my favourite). His free though, it is very intense, but the Rain music has been used by so many people, and some skated very well to it. There is so much good music, he is so capable, and one of his choreographers is Lori Nicol (!), I just wonder why repeat? I also watched his skate at a B event with the music muted (was in a public place with no headphones), and it seemed a little bit empty. But skaters sometimes add transitions during the season. So, I don't know, we'll see... He is a top competitor for sure.

 

[snowed]

Then why Ilya is getting 2s in GoEs for his jumps (let's assume -5 GoE was an honest mistake), when he literally should be getting GoEs reflective of the effortless execution of extra-high, fully rotated, gorgeous jumps. I mean, he should be scoring 4 and above, 3 on a bad day...

These are the bullets for jumps:

1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence) 2) good take-off and landing 3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combo or sequence) 4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry 5) very good body position from take-off to landing 6) element matches the music

-for 4A I would give him 1 and 2, sorry I didn't see it effortless, didn't have difficult entry, very good body position? he just got it done, upper body forward in landing, and there was no music there to match it ( I would think on purpose, so he can find his own rhythm for this difficult jump)
- for combo, I would give him 1, 2 and 6
- for 3A, I would give 1 and 4, he stopped (slowed) at the landing...