2023 World Junior Pairs Free Skate

[Ziotic]

They’re increasing the age by season. So this season, the age minimum is the same as it has been in previous seasons. Which is 15. It’ll be 16 for the 2023-2024 season. And then 17 for the 2024-2025 season. The cutoff is before midnight on July 1 like it always has been. Sophia was born in November 2008 (I may have the month wrong, but I know it’s after July). Daniel was born in March-May of 2002 (I can’t remember the month 100%, but I know it’s before the cutoff). Daniel will turn 21 before the cutoff, so he can’t do junior pairs anymore. However, Sophia was born after June 30, so she won’t be senior eligible until the 2026-2027 season.

That’s a problem I have with the new age rule. Because if they are going to still have the minimum age for juniors be 13, Mao Shimada won’t be eligible for seniors until the 2026-2027 season and for the Olympics until the 2030 Olympics. They should at least raise it to 14 if they’re going to have the senior min be raised to 17.

I understand the gradual increments they are raising I’m asking what the age gap for a pair will be once the increments have been completed.

Ultimately I’m in agreement with them not making changes a 6yr age gap from 15-22 is not okay. Once it’s 18-24 not so bad but I see 14-21 as an issue due to the huge difference in maturity of the pair.

 

[midori green]

I understand the gradual increments they are raising I’m asking what the age gap for a pair will be once the increments have been completed.

Ultimately I’m in agreement with them not making changes a 6yr age gap from 15-22 is not okay. Once it’s 18-24 not so bad but I see 14-21 as an issue due to the huge difference in maturity of the pair.

It won't really change junior age gaps as the girls will be 13-18, and the guys will be 13-20. The difference is senior everybodies will have to be at least 17.

 

[midori green]

Adding to my above response:
I guess it would change the range for a team looking to move up in the same year. Current ages could 14 and 20 to move to senior next season (6yr), and they'd have to be 16 and 20 with the new rule (4yr). It doesn't prevent larger gaps (could still be 13 and 20 for a 7yr gap), but would encourage smaller ones.

 

[Ziotic]

Adding to my above response:
I guess it would change the range for a team looking to move up in the same year. Current ages could 14 and 20 to move to senior next season (6yr), and they'd have to be 16 and 20 with the new rule (4yr). It doesn't prevent larger gaps, but would encourage smaller ones.

This is more inline with my thinking. I don’t foresee teams pairing up for two years to then take a break from international comp for two years while their partner reaches a certain age.

It may happen, but likely with less frequency

 

[skylark]

Right? They'd have to do something like "Junior pairs/dance men can be 21/22, but their partners can't be more than x years younger than them, and only for the next two years." That's complicated. Also, Sonia turned 14 in (I think) December, so she was only 13 on the cutoff date of July 1st (she was too young for junior worlds last season!). They were already going to have one season in limbo before the age change, and they may have planned for that. At least new pairs forming will know the new rules and plan accordingly. Unfortunate for those affected currently. I have no idea, though, what their long-term plans were or if they've changed.

Didn't I hear Ted say that Sonja and Daniel's plans are to compete for the next 3 years in domestic competitions? I think that's an elegant plan to put out to the fans and the rest of the world, and also an elegant plan to follow through with. I can see them doing it, with strong support of their coaching teams and other support systems.

It seems to me that ISU will probably come up with a solution that honors the pairs teams that this rule affects. But if not, hey ... Sonja and Daniel wll still have their World Junior Pairs title after 2026 and be ready for international competitions. For all the teams affected, it could work out well. (says the eternal optimist )

 

[readernick]

As terrible as it is for several of the pairs, I really hope they don’t change the age rules just to accommodate these teams. The rule is in place to protect minors and pairs is a definitely one discipline which has seen a lot of abuse of minors. The age rules should encourage partners to choose someone closer to their own age. I like the American and Japanese teams but rules are in place for a reason and should be enforced equally for everyone

 

[midori green]

Didn't I hear Ted say that Sonja and Daniel's plans are to compete for the next 3 years in domestic competitions? I think that's an elegant plan to put out to the fans and the rest of the world, and also an elegant plan to follow through with. I can see them doing it, with strong support of their coaching teams and other support systems.

It seems to me that ISU will probably come up with a solution that honors the pairs teams that this rule affects. But if not, hey ... Sonja and Daniel wll still have their World Junior Pairs title after 2026 and be ready for international competitions. For all the teams affected, it could work out well. (says the eternal optimist )

I don't how Daniel stacks up against the senior pairs guys. Would he have Olympic potential for 2026 with an older partner? As much as I love them as a team, I don't know that I'd pass up that opportunity and bank on 2030. It's a tough situation, for sure! Maybe they could both find almost as good partners for three years then team up again.

 

[midori green]

I don't how Daniel stacks up against the senior pairs guys. Would he have Olympic potential for 2026 with an older partner? As much as I love them as a team, I don't know that I'd pass up that opportunity and bank on 2030. It's a tough situation, for sure! Maybe they could both find almost as good partners for three years then team up again.

Or maybe they're not thinking in Olympic cycles and are aiming for Worlds in 2027.

 

[lariko]

other pairs of junior age may feel it is unfair to them

I don’t think so. If their age difference is better handled, they can simply side-step the poorly composed pairs and go senior. The huge age difference like that is aesthetically iffy and also… well, not great from the partnership pov, if you have an adult man skating with a child.

 

[4everchan]

I don’t think so. If their age difference is better handled, they can simply side-step the poorly composed pairs and go senior. The huge age difference like that is aesthetically iffy and also… well, not great from the partnership pov, if you have an adult man skating with a child.

I am not sure you understood what I was saying..

someone suggested that they would be fine if Sonia and Daniel just kept competing in juniors since she is too young for seniors and he is aging out... I said that the junior pairs (the ones who are still age eligible) may find this unfair.

I think that if they want to keep skating together domestically in seniors, they can... but not in juniors. There is a reason why there are age categories, so adults do not compete with children... and of course here, by adults it is 21 years old already.

Now I agree that the new rules are good to minimize the major age difference which has been a model used frequently for pair skating in the past... as the man, while he is not fully developed (for lifts) can handle a more petite woman... and when he ages out, they split and go in different directions... this has been happening non-stop for many years (in many countries). So, it would be refreshing to see pairs with a way smaller age difference, able to compete junior together and transition together to seniors.

I am not going to make many friends but I don't care that some teams are in limbo, especially since young pairs often split anyways... there was a need to change the age rules and I don't think that, because a couple pairs are in limbo, the rule needs to be modified... In a couple years, everyone will have adapted and the sport will change positively.

 

[Skater Boy]

Its hard to see "juniors" with some guys looking like men with fairly developed muscles and facial hai and girls looking like fresh faced stuffie loving kids. Mind you not so much in pairs or dance because of the strength needed some of those guys looked like sticks / young boys in singles. The rules are going to affect some teams for sure in respect to having one skater eligible for juniors and the other seniors.

 

[lariko]

I am not sure you understood what I was saying..

someone suggested that they would be fine if Sonia and Daniel just kept competing in juniors since she is too young for seniors and he is aging out... I said that the junior pairs (the ones who are still age eligible) may find this unfair.

I think that if they want to keep skating together domestically in seniors, they can... but not in juniors. There is a reason why there are age categories, so adults do not compete with children... and of course here, by adults it is 21 years old already.

Now I agree that the new rules are good to minimize the major age difference which has been a model used frequently for pair skating in the past... as the man, while he is not fully develop can handle a more petite woman... and when he ages out, they split and go in different directions... this has been happening non-stop of the years (in many countries). So, it would be refreshing to see pairs with a way smaller age difference, able to compete junior together and transition together to seniors.

I am not going to make many friends but I don't care that some teams are in limbo, especially since young pairs often split anyways... there was a need to change the age rules and I don't think that, because a couple pairs are in limbo, the rule needs to be modified... In a couple years, everyone will have adapted and the sport will change positively.

I wouldn’t mind rules staying the same, but with both Japan and USA having a stake, particularly with Japan who has only one pair and 3 spots in seniors, I can easily see backroom deals, since we all know how things are done in this sport and how Japan can bend the rule any way they want.

 

[4everchan]

I wouldn’t mind rules staying the same, but with both Japan and USA having a stake, particularly with Japan who has only one pair and 3 spots in seniors, I can easily see backroom deals, since we all know how things are done in this sport and how Japan can bend the rule any way they want.

well, honestly, the Japanese pairs scored well in juniors because they are excellent singles skaters. Their jumps earned them tons of points.. but the rest was pretty basic. In juniors, their SBS jumps have contributed to keep them in top 5 but in seniors, where other team do triples, even if they don't have lutzes or 3-3, they would not be super competitive with their basic throws and lifts... As they are both single skaters, they can keep training pairs on the side, and keep competing in singles until they are age eligible... or they can make new partnership...
Actually, if Japan were smart, they would split them up and make two good pairs with them, one junior and one senior.

 

[auser]

You obviously havent heard me try and sing! I sound like a gut shot water buffalo...
I think some National Anthems are easier to sing than others....
I just listened to the Japanese National Anthem on you tube and there were two translations that bore only a slight resemblence to each other.
The French one is easy...we sang that in French class........

The singing of La Marseillaise is one of my favorite parts(among many) of watching the classic film "Casablanca". I always try to sing along(sadly w/o the benefit of knowing the French language. Apologies to all).

 

[lariko]

well, honestly, the Japanese pairs scored well in juniors because they are excellent singles skaters. Their jumps earned them tons of points.. but the rest was pretty basic. In juniors, their SBS jumps have contributed to keep them in top 5 but in seniors, where other team do triples, even if they don't have lutzes or 3-3, they would not be super competitive with their basic throws and lifts... As they are both single skaters, they can keep training pairs on the side, and keep competing in singles until they are age eligible... or they can make new partnership...
Actually, if Japan were smart, they would split them up and make two good pairs with them, one junior and one senior.

Their lift was group 5, level 4. Their throws are not there, but given how many senior teams rn only do double throws…

 

[4everchan]

Their lift was group 5, level 4. Their throws are not there, but given how many senior teams rn only do double throws…

the lift may have been level 4 it wasn't on par with great lifts out there. and do not forget that in senior, they need 3 lifts, not just two and a much better twist lift. And the senior teams doing double throws are pretty much only the new teams that just started skating together or are fresh out of juniors... so same... The reality is that the Japanese team didn't even medal at JWC, so they have a lot of work ahead if they wanted to medal at senior world. Not just on elements but on skating as well... Don't hear me wrong, i am very impressed with them. They have good potential but unfortunately, they cannot compete internationally anymore, so that's why I am thinking their federation could make two teams out of this one unmatched age-wise team.

 

[lariko]

the lift may have been level 4 it wasn't on par with great lifts out there. and do not forget that in senior, they need 3 lifts, not just two. And the senior teams doing double throws are pretty much only the new teams that just started skating together or are fresh out of juniors... so same... The reality is that the Japanese team didn't even medal at JWC, so they have a lot of work ahead if they wanted to medal at senior world. Not just on elements but on skating as well... Don't hear me wrong, i am very impressed with them. They have good potential but unfortunately, they cannot compete internationally anymore, so that's why I am thinking their federation could make two teams out of this one unmatched age-wise team.

Yeah, but they need the *second* team and those guys would do fine as the second senior team—if they were age eligible. I don’t think male partners are all that many in Japan.

 

[4everchan]

Yeah, but they need the *second* team and those guys would do fine as the second senior team—if they were age eligible. I don’t think male partners are all that many in Japan.

that can be organized they have so many singles skaters and look what Bruno is making with them... Japan could be a force in pairs... also why do they need a second team? Most countries are happy to have one good team

 

[lariko]

that can be organized they have so many singles skaters and look what Bruno is making with them... Japan could be a force in pairs... also why do they need a second team? Most countries are happy to have one good team

They had aplenty of male singles for years and years and never any pairs until now.

 

[4everchan]

They had aplenty of male singles for years and years and never any pairs until now.

exactly,because there was absolutely no interest in pairs and dance in japan... but things are changing quickly... nobody would have ever believed that daisuke would pick dance up... it is creating a lot of interest.. the team event has also contributed a lot to this...

pioneers are needed ! Shin Amano was a pair skater by the way... Mervin Tran and Narumi Takahashi won a bronze medal for Japan a long time ago... they split because he was canadian and couldn't get citizenship... Kihara skated with her a while back.. they were not a good fit... he was quite weak... It was a huge surprise for me when he managed to become such a good partner... I surely didn't expect it.

I think it's possible that with their recent success with the team event and world medal, they may decide to invest on pairs a little more... they are contenders for Team gold if they can secure 3 out of the 4 disciplines and not do too badly in dance... opportunities bring more opportunities