Jason Brown does not plan quad for Worlds

[cheerknithanson]

It is worth remembering that Jason is currently the best male spinner in the world.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?41239-Jason-Brown&p=1118385&viewfull=1#post1118385

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Whoop whoop!!!!! arty:

 

[OS]

Sometimes I wonder lack of real technical goods can sometimes pushes judges to be over generous with qualities they CAN award like steps and spins to skaters with strong federation.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Sometimes I wonder lack of real technical goods can sometimes pushes judges to be over generous with qualities they CAN award like steps and spins to skaters with strong federation.

What are spins if not technical goods? A break between the 'real stuff'? The skating program version of a toilet break?

We better tell Russia then that they have no political power anymore... USA mobs the floor with them in spin GOE department and of course that can not be linked to actual skills or something.

Edit: ^ in the mens discipline, I have no idea how the GOE for the ladies look

 

[dorispulaski]

Several of the Russian ladies' main areas of excellence are in their spins (both in flexibility and quality of execution) not the size and quality of their jumps. If spins were not important, they would not be graded. Jason is not the only beneficiary of good marks for spins.

 

[Mathman]

Sometimes I wonder lack of real technical goods can sometimes pushes judges to be over generous with qualities they CAN award like steps and spins to skaters with strong federation.

I think it is more that a skater who doesn't have to concentrate on rotating and landing a quad can pay more attention to other details of his performance. Kovtun famously said that when he goes for his quads, the choreography, etc., goes out the window -- and kind of implied that the same is true of all skaters.

 

[plushyfan]

While I agree the Russian Fed supports Kovtun, I don't think they are that crazy about him honestly. I'm not a huge fan of his skating or anything, but he really did deserve to go to the Olympics last season and was left at home so that an obviously injured Plushenko could compete in the team event and then withdraw, the result being that no Russian man could compete at the individual event at the Olympics. Given that the Olympics were in Russia and that last season Kovtun was clearly the number 1 guy, I think that was a bit harsh. I'm not denying that he got preferential treatment during the 2012-2013 season or that his winning the National title this season wasn't the most convincing victory, but I feel that if the Russian Fed really loved him that much, they would have sent him to the Olympics last season when he was undoubtedly the best healthy males skater in Russia at the time.

You are wrong. If Kovtun had skated well at Euros he goes to Sochi. But he finished on 4th place. He was very young and inconsistent. Everybody talked about Kovtun, but Voronov was the first reserve. Plus Plushenko gave confidence to the whole Russian team. Trankov said in one of his interviews they were very nervous before the team event, but when they saw Plushy did so great they calmed down. Lipnitskaya said, she wanted to skate well because of Plushy...etc. And we are not talking about Plushenko's advertising value. Many people bought the tickets because of him. The whole competition was more exciting with him. Every big event need supertsars.

Back to Jason. If the other skaters are going to make mistakes, and he will be perfect get chance to win a medal.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think assembling a StSeq and filling a program with quality steps might be the most technical aspect in skating. I find this to be an area where Jason is very strong. Plus...so many PCS filler points come from the steps.

 

[TontoK]

Do you mean men from all countries or only U.S. men?? :think:

p.s. General comment:

Is it me ... or are Josh/Jason/Adam stirring up far more discussion than the U.S. ladies? (Not to mention the other U.S. disciplines.) :think:

Not complaining. The men are the most interesting to me. Then the dancers and ladies. But I'm surprised that the men seem to be dominating the threads.

For me, this year it's about the men this season.

It's the most interesting discipline, and the only two skaters I've been able to rustle up any real interest/personal rooting are two men... Farris and Ten.

No one else has put out a performance I can get drawn into in a fanboy type of way.

Oh, I'll follow the other disciplines, too, for sure. But the men hold by far the most interest for me.

 

[humbaba]

Sometimes I wonder lack of real technical goods can sometimes pushes judges to be over generous with qualities they CAN award like steps and spins to skaters with strong federation.

I consider spins and steps "real technical goods". Skaters with a broad range of skills can rack up lots of points with their spins, steps, etc. That gives them a cushion when they have problems with the jumps.

 

[silverlake22]

You are entirely missing the point, which is that Max is a much better skater, but Kovtun gets higher scores.

They are roughly comparable IMO. Both good jumpers but both not musical or artistic. I think they both have the ability to eventually develop that side of their skating, but right now they are too focused on jumps to do that. Max does have a lot more speed and power though, I'll give you that.

The point I was trying to make is that the Russian Fed is not as gung ho about Kovtun as you and some other posters seem to think. Plus if the level of competition in the men's field in Russia was as high as it is in the US, I have no doubt that Kovtun at his best would be the #4 guy in Russia and would be marked as such, resulting in lower marks internationally a la Max. Kovtun is the number 1/number 2 men's skater in Russia right now, that's why his PCS are they way they are. If Max was the number 1/number 2 guy in the US, I feel like his PCS would probably be as high as Kovtun's if not higher.

Bottom line. It's not Kovtun's fault that the men's field in Russia is not as deep as the US and that, even though his skating is fairly bland aside from the jumps, he's still unarguably the best or second best man in his country right now and gets marked as such. His PCS aren't even that high anyways, I'm kind of sick of all the hate he gets. Have you seen the PCS that Javi gets for ridiculously sloppy skates?? Like a over a point higher in each component than Kovtun. Or how about when 5 fall concussion Yuzuru got higher PCS than Kovtun at CoC? I like Hanyu, but that was ludacris. Dornbush deserved the highest PCS in the FS at that event, but even if he had been given that, the points suggest Hanyu still would have been 2nd. And you're saying the judges are in love with Kovtun? Really? The issue is more that skaters like Hanyu and Fernandez are given artistic marks that are so darn high regardless of what they do, that everyone else in the top echelon gets inflated PCS too just so that those two (and Chan when he's competing) can't be human zambonies on the ice and still win.

I don't think the judges, Russian or international, really love Kovtun at all. His scores and placements are primarily due to his TECHNICAL abilities which are unarguably very strong. In a fair world, yes, he and Voronov should get PCS in the 6s. But when Hanyu with a concussion and 5 falls gets mid 8s, the judges are put in a tight spot, if they give Kovtun with a strong technical performance PCS in the 6s, then 5 fall concussion Hanyu wins the event. Would you prefer that? (As for Dornbush, he was nearly 9 TES points behind Kovtun when you combine SP + FS so he really shouldn't have won either, his FS was kind of a popfest at the end).

Judges love Hanyu, Fernandez, and Chan. Not Kovtun or Voronov. If either Russian guy medals at Worlds it will be because of TES, I'm sure of it.

 

[silverlake22]

You are wrong. If Kovtun had skated well at Euros he goes to Sochi. But he finished on 4th place. He was very young and inconsistent. Everybody talked about Kovtun, but Voronov was the first reserve. Plus Plushenko gave confidence to the whole Russian team. Trankov said in one of his interviews they were very nervous before the team event, but when they saw Plushy did so great they calmed down. Lipnitskaya said, she wanted to skate well because of Plushy...etc. And we are not talking about Plushenko's advertising value. Many people bought the tickets because of him. The whole competition was more exciting with him. Every big event need supertsars.

Back to Jason. If the other skaters are going to make mistakes, and he will be perfect get chance to win a medal.

All that means is that the RU Fed is not that supportive of Voronov or Kovtun. Plushy was so clearly seriously injured, yet they didn't care enough about Voronov or Kovtun to keep that from sending Plush anyways. RU Fed loves Adelina and Plushy and that's about it. They aren't really giving anyone else much preferential treatment. I mean heck, Queen Tuk was 10th at Nationals last year and Darling Julia was 9th this year!

 

[Tahuu]

It is worth remembering that Jason is currently the best male spinner in the world.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?41239-Jason-Brown&p=1118385&viewfull=1#post1118385

This is not a fact. Here's where Brown placed.

All time best spins:

1. Stephane LAMBIEL 5.00
2. Shoma UNO 4.86
3. Michael Christian MARTINEZ 4.80
3. Takahiko KOZUKA 4.80
5. Nathan CHEN 4.79
6. Jason BROWN 4.70

Even for 2014-2015 Brown is not the best:

1. Shoma UNO 4.86
2. Jason BROWN 4.70

 

[Tavi...]

It is worth remembering that Jason is currently the best male spinner in the world.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?41239-Jason-Brown&p=1118385&viewfull=1#post1118385

This is not a fact. Here's where Brown placed.

All time best spins:

1. Stephane LAMBIEL 5.00
2. Shoma UNO 4.86
3. Michael Christian MARTINEZ 4.80
3. Takahiko KOZUKA 4.80
5. Nathan CHEN 4.79
6. Jason BROWN 4.70

Even for 2014-2015 Brown is not the best:

1. Shoma UNO 4.86
2. Jason BROWN 4.70

What do your numbers represent and where do they come from?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Goe?

 

[Tavi...]

Goe?

Perhaps. But if someone can't be bothered to post such basic information or include their source or methodology, it's hard to take the assertion seriously. Especially because our friend Tahuu, based on his or her comments on FSU, thinks Jason is someone who "hopes to win when others fall on their jumps."

 

[Tahuu]

What do your numbers represent and where do they come from?

The best scores in spins.

 

[Tahuu]

Perhaps. But if someone can't be bothered to post such basic information or include their source or methodology, it's hard to take the assertion seriously. Especially because our friend Tahuu, based on his or her comments on FSU, thinks Jason is someone who "hopes to win when others fall on their jumps."

LOL. Is that the strategy - wishing their competitors to fall - they have been claimed and used since...?

 

[gmyers]

I think it is more that a skater who doesn't have to concentrate on rotating and landing a quad can pay more attention to other details of his performance. Kovtun famously said that when he goes for his quads, the choreography, etc., goes out the window -- and kind of implied that the same is true of all skaters.

I don't know if you saw the interview with Todd eldredge but he said same. He was explicit about all.

 

[gmyers]

A quad-less Patrick Chan was 9th in his first Worlds and then won two consecutive silver medals still quad-less in his next two appearances (and was 5th at the 2010 Olympics). The following season he added quads and beat his closest rival by over 20 points and set world records in the SP, FS, and total score.

Given the changes to the value of the quad since the 2010, it's possible that he wouldn't have won those two silvers under current scoring, but e definitely would have been top 10, and probably top 5 anyway. For Patrick, the skating skills were developed early, and then the jumps came more slowly, partly because his first coach made him spend a large amount of time practicing those basics. Many skaters do the opposite - work on the jumps and then add work to improve skating skills. It's possible to get to the same end goal - big jumps as well as good skating and presentation - via two different roads.

Chan definitely would be winning same medals he did. It's easier to get level 4 step sequences and they are worth more as goe makes them with more than triple lutz potentially. The IJS changes were not exclusively pro jump. Brown is winning gp medals with one triple axel and no quads.

 

[dorispulaski]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2015/fc2015_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

In the FS at Four Continents, Jason got positive GOE on both triple axel passes, so at least occasionally, he has two triple axels.