Thoughts on a pop music ban for one season?

[visaliakid]

I hate the word BAN! This should enlighten everyone as to my thoughts on this thread topic. :disagree:

 

[cheerknithanson]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

Some idioms are very confusing in terms on what some of the meanings are in correspondence to the saying....

 

[surimi]

I think banning a specific type of music is harsh - I wouldn't be opposed to the 'speaking parts'/non-lyrical words inserted to a song like Radionova's Titanic program.

I'm not in favour of banning, but I dislike the spoken parts too. I wonder, are there programs in which fellow fans actually liked them? For me the spoken insertions like in Radionova's LP or in IK's 'Ghost' were very disruptive. :/

 

[Tutto]

The fact that a viewpoint like this has drawn 10 pages of comments makes me sad. What kind of arrogance would draw someone to the conclusion that "all music that I personally do not like should be banned"? What about "classical" music makes it inherently better than "pop" music? And of course, quotes are necessary because, as many posters have already pointed out, the classifications are largely arbitrary and imprecise, and in many cases, can be blurred. What is pop? Are we banning music that has been released in the past quarter century? Would anything that the composer Ludovico Einaudi created be banned as well because it is recent, despite the fact that he bears much more resemblance to Chopin than Taylor Swift?

To me, the proposal of a music ban reeks of the sort of close-minded attitude of an older adult criticizing the behavior of millennials or lambasting new trends, technology, and viewpoints, simply because they do not understand it, do not like it, and/or fear it. Change is, in general, positive and necessary for progress. If music is good, then it will remain in the public eye. And if one hundred excellent pop songs are released in 2016, then I would hope that all of these pieces be used to create gorgeous programs rather than a half-hearted one to yet another Moonlight Sonata.

I did not think my harmless fantasy would ruffle so many feathers...
BTW I am 49, old but not ancient.

 

[Mathman]

I'd like to see a thread addressing these issues. We could all keep it civil, I know we could.

There have been quite a few threads on the general issue of whether the IJS has helped or hurt figure skating, although the specific question of valuation of throw jumps is new territory, I think. Although civil, nothing much came of these discussions.

Some people thought that the IJS made skating better (more like a real sport), some thought the IJS made skating worse (point-chasing resulted in less enjoyable programs), and some thought that there was both good and bad skating under both systems. When the question comes up, people just reiterate their positions three or four times in a row while ignoring what the others are saying.

BTW I am 49, old...

Perspective, perspective, perspective. Everything is relative.

 

[Interspectator]

I did not think my harmless fantasy would ruffle so many feathers...
BTW I am 49, old but not ancient.

On the other hand, the thread has sparked an intense discussion about something people care about. A good thing?

 

[Interspectator]

I'd also defend Vivaldi's cavity inducing work. Hundreds of years later, after so many of his contemporaries have been forgotten, his works live on. They are catchy, commercialy viable and in the public domain. May he live forever.
I wonder which musicians work from the 2000's will survive another few-hundred years. Adele?

(I just realized this post may feel out of context, but someone was critical of Vivaldi earlier in the thread )

 

[Tutto]

The categorization of what music is "pop" or not is probably simply whatever pieces of music or songs that those who want to ban "pop" music don't like will be categorized as "pop".

Ok what is classical music and what is pop music. Here are some definitions found in Wikipedia & similar sources:

‘Classical music is serious music following long-established principles rather than a folk, jazz, or popular tradition.’

‘The major time divisions of Western art music ie classical music are as follows: the early music period, which includes the Medieval (500–1400) and the Renaissance(1400–1600) eras; the Common practice period, which includes the Baroque(1600–1750), Classical (1750–1820), and Romantic eras (1804–1910); and the 20th century (1901–2000) which includes the modern (1890–1930) that overlaps from the late 19th-century, the high modern (mid 20th-century), and contemporary or postmodern (1975–present) eras
The term "classical music" has two meanings: the broader meaning includes all Western art music from the Medieval era to today, and the specific meaning refers to the music from the 1750s to the early 1830s—the era of Mozart and Haydn.
Works of classical repertoire often exhibit complexity in their use of orchestration, counterpoint, harmony, musical development, rhythm,phrasing, texture, and form. Whereas most popular styles are usually written in song forms, classical music is noted for its development of highly sophisticated musical forms,[6] like the concerto, symphony, sonata, and opera.’

Leonard Berstein’s ‘ what is classical music’:
‘Because the truth is that any great composer, writing music in any period, classical or not classical, will make you feel deep emotions, because he's great - because he has something to say, because he has something to tell you in his music. And because of this, a great composer's music will always last and last, maybe forever, because people keep on feeling emotions whenever they hear it. And that lasting quality is perhaps the most important meaning of the word "classical". A classic is something that last forever, like that Greek vase we talked about or Robinson Crusoe or Shakespeare's plays, or a Mozart symphony.’
http://www.leonardbernstein.com/ypc_script_what_is_classical_music.htm

My understanding is that in reference to figure skating, classical music not limited to the specific classical period 1750-1820 but includes Baroque, Romantic and modern eras, unless we want to exclude e.g Rachmaninov & Stravinsky so favoured by skaters (or rather three pieces by them) from that definition.
Beyond that any genre of music has some great works so if a song composed originally as a popular song is still in circulation after 10 -20 years instead of vanishing after a season it was born in, it certainly proved some worth. There are enduring classics in every musical genre and I’d like programs skated to these pieces provided that classical music in a traditional sense is still represented as it has been a long time tradition even a trademark of figure skating.

What I am against is the overuse of pop songs with simple tunes and meaningless lyrics which are likely to be replaced by next season hits and never be heard again. But in the end it is all about the balance I don’t’ mind some portion of pop as there are some young skaters to whom such music appeals, but when we end up with 60% of pop songs in competition and 5% of classical then I feel the balance is seriously wrong. That not even touching the use of same songs by number of skaters: we had 11 (!) Feeling Good and 6 I Put a Spell on You in this past season for example.

I don’t know why some posters took my fantasy suggestion so seriously it’s not like the ISU is going to read anything we write here never mind changing the rules. The thread title was wrong as I see it now. People’s attention clearly doesn’t span beyond first three or four words so the minute they read ‘ban’ they saw red and didn’t even bother to notice ‘for one season’ at all, never mind reading the OP.
Having read all the posts many of which were insightful & interesting I still believe that it would make sense to limit vocals to one program per skater/team thus either SP or LP. It would be easy to implement but of course I can see people reacting in the same manner as they did to a ban for one season thing...
Lets continue moaning aimlessly it is much more 'efficient' and above all unites the posters like nothing else

 

[gkelly]

What I am against is the overuse of pop songs with simple tunes and meaningless lyrics which are likely to be replaced by next season hits and never be heard again.

I agree that repetitive simple tunes with simple orchestration and little variety or build are a problem, mainly because they don't give the skater much opportunity to demonstrate much depth/nuance or variety.

But the same is true even if there are no lyrics, or deep poetic lyrics set to a simple repetitive tune.

The quality of the lyrics are not an issue to me, because skaters are not being judged on how well they interpret the lyrics. Sometimes lyrics might be in a language I don't understand, or that the skater doesn't understand, and that should make no difference in evaluating how well the skater interprets the music. If there's a clear disconnect between what the lyrics are about and how the skater is interpreting the music, that might cause some annoying cognitive dissonance among viewers (including judges) who do know what the song/aria is supposed to be about.

If skaters choose new songs, we can't always know which ones will or will not stand the test of time. There are plenty of classic pop songs from earlier in the 20th century that have become classics in their own right, some with more and some with less musical complexity. Should, e.g., Gershwin or the Beatles be banned, along with all their contemporaries?

The lack-of-variety problem from simple songs can sometimes be solved by using a medley of different tunes each with different rhythms and overall feelings.

But in the end it is all about the balance I don’t’ mind some portion of pop as there are some young skaters to whom such music appeals, but when we end up with 60% of pop songs in competition and 5% of classical then I feel the balance is seriously wrong.

The thing is, 1) different fans will have different opinions about what balance of different kinds of music they prefer to hear, and 2) even if there were general agreement among fans and officials about what makes for the best artistic balance for spectators across a competition or a season, there is no means by which any single entity could control that balance. Nor, IMO, should there be. For competition purposes, skaters need to be free to choose music they think will best show off their technical and interpretive skills to best advantage. They aren't going to choose rhythms that are completely at cross purposes with the movement rhythms needed for executing the elements, or styles of music that they don't feel comfortable interpreting while skating/competing. So there might be whole genres of music that we love to listen to and would love see expert skaters interpret on ice, but there may be very few skaters who actually have the expertise to do that kind of music justice and even they may find it more suitable for an artistic or show program than for a competitive program full of technical challenges.

The thread title was wrong as I see it now. People’s attention clearly doesn’t span beyond first three or four words so the minute they read ‘ban’ they saw red and didn’t even bother to notice ‘for one season’ at all, never mind reading the OP.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was always aware you were only suggesting this "ban" for one season. I still don't like the idea of banning a whole genre or range of genres even for a year.

There was a ban on vocal music for decades. That still didn't eliminate pop music, but it did mean we got to hear a lot more muzaked versions that lost a lot of the depth/complexity or distinctive sounds of the originals. Still, I'd be happier to ban or discourage lyrics -- including sung lyrics in classical music -- than pop music per se, because I do think that lyrics in vocal music poorly chosen for competitive purposes can distract from what the skater is doing.

Having read all the posts many of which were insightful & interesting I still believe that it would make sense to limit vocals to one program per skater/team thus either SP or LP. It would be easy to implement but of course I can see people reacting in the same manner as they did to a ban for one season thing...

I could live with that better, especially because what you're limiting is just vocals, not genre.

 

[charmblade]

The only ban I would support is on voiceovers/spoken word...

 

[skylark]

I did not think my harmless fantasy would ruffle so many feathers...
BTW I am 49, old but not ancient.

Oh. It didn't come across to me as a fantasy. If I respond to a thread, I always read at least the entire OP. I think it's kind of rude not to. But I guess in this instance I didn't fully catch your tone, which can be more subtle. I almost always read the posts that have come before too. Of course that means I don't read all the threads. FWIW, I enjoyed reading the entire thread and even found it informative in places.

And again, it's probably tone, but I don't think your post ruffled feathers exactly. it allowed people to say definitely what they thought one way or the other.

That's a nice opportunity for posters, since most of the subjects we post about are speculative. Even people who think they can say definitely what a skater's result "should" have been in a particular comp, or that such and such a skater has already "maximized his potential" are fooling themselves. They're misunderstanding the sport of figure skating.

 

[Tutto]

@ gkelly

If skaters choose new songs, we can't always know which ones will or will not stand the test of time. There are plenty of classic pop songs from earlier in the 20th century that have become classics in their own right, some with more and some with less musical complexity. Should, e.g., Gershwin or the Beatles be banned, along with all their contemporaries?

I hoped I made it clear in my last post that I welcome the use of so called classics of any musical genre. Why would I want to ban classics such as Gershvin & Beatles?

The lack-of-variety problem from simple songs can sometimes be solved by using a medley of different tunes each with different rhythms and overall feelings.

Are time & effort spent on piecing together a medley really worth it? Why not spend time finding one good piece of music instead

The thing is, 1) different fans will have different opinions about what balance of different kinds of music they prefer to hear, and 2) even if there were general agreement among fans and officials about what makes for the best artistic balance for spectators across a competition or a season, there is no means by which any single entity could control that balance. Nor, IMO, should there be. For competition purposes, skaters need to be free to choose music they think will best show off their technical and interpretive skills to best advantage. They aren't going to choose rhythms that are completely at cross purposes with the movement rhythms needed for executing the elements, or styles of music that they don't feel comfortable interpreting while skating/competing. So there might be whole genres of music that we love to listen to and would love see expert skaters interpret on ice, but there may be very few skaters who actually have the expertise to do that kind of music justice and even they may find it more suitable for an artistic or show program than for a competitive program full of technical challenges.

The fact there always has been some control. Vocals had been as you said yourself banned for decades. Short ice dance is still determined every season. Limiting vocals to one program would control it to some degree leaving enough freedom for skaters and provide an easier on ear outcome for us & judges..

 

[gkelly]

I hoped I made it clear in my last post that I welcome the use of so called classics of any musical genre. Why would I want to ban classics such as Gershvin & Beatles?

Because you said you wanted to ban "pop music."

But you allow classic pop?

How much time has to pass before a pop song can be considered a classic pop song?

If the goal is to avoid everyone skating to the same songs when they first come out, before we know if the consensus of time is that they qualify as "good" music, then we'd also have to ban skaters from using film soundtracks the year or year after they first come out. If a contemporary art-music composer puts out a new ballet or opera or symphonic work, how long should we wait to find out if the music is good enough to enter the repertory or will quickly be forgotten? Should skaters be allowed to use new music in other genres because those genres are considered "good" enough by definition?

But again, that's privileging the sensibilities of the audience, and specifically music snobs in the audience, over the sensibilities of the skaters who have to listen to the music several times a day for a year in practice. Why not let skaters choose something they're excited about right now?

Are time & effort spent on piecing together a medley really worth it? Why not spend time finding one good piece of music instead

Sometimes the medley already exists, so the skater and choreographer actually have less editing to do than if they just found one piece that they then needed to make fit the time limits and athletic structure of short program or freeskate.

Also, the need to show variety. One piece with built-in variation can work, but so can using different dances from the same ballet, different movements from the same symphony or concerto, different tracks from the same soundrack album, different songs from the same musical (overtures can work well!). Why not different songs by the same popular artist?

Historically, of course, at least through the 1980s, it was common for different sections of long programs to have even less relationship to each other than that.

The fact there always has been some control. Vocals had been as you said yourself banned for decades. Short ice dance is still determined every season. Limiting vocals to one program would control it to some degree leaving enough freedom for skaters and provide an easier on ear outcome for us & judges..

Remember, providing an easier on ear outcome for fans and judges would be very low on the list of priorities for the ISU, if it would even be on the list at all.

They're not putting on a show. They're putting on an athletic competition, in which the athletes are required to demonstrate their ability to perform technical feats in time with music and get extra credit demonstrating interpretation of that music and other artistic purposes in the process.

Now if you want to talk about how ice show producers should choose their different numbers to the best aesthetic effect, it would be a completely different conversation.

 

[Tutto]

Oh. It didn't come across to me as a fantasy.
If I respond to a thread, I always read at least the entire OP. I think it's kind of rude not to. But I guess in this instance I didn't fully catch your tone, which can be more subtle. I almost always read the posts that have come before too. Of course that means I don't read all the threads. FWIW, I enjoyed reading the entire thread and even found it informative in places.

And again, it's probably tone, but I don't think your post ruffled feathers exactly. it allowed people to say definitely what they thought one way or the other.

That's a nice opportunity for posters, since most of the subjects we post about are speculative. Even people who think they can say definitely what a skater's result "should" have been in a particular comp, or that such and such a skater has already "maximized his potential" are fooling themselves. They're misunderstanding the sport of figure skating.

What else but a fantasy suggestion it could have been? You don't think I have some sort of a pull with the ISU to make it a real proposal? I wish...
Also I wish I could express myself better in English which is not alas my first language and it shows
I didn't realise people have such conflicting ideas regarding even definition of pop music. But all in all I think the discussion was not without interest.

 

[plushyfan]

I'd also defend Vivaldi's cavity inducing work. Hundreds of years later, after so many of his contemporaries have been forgotten, his works live on. They are catchy, commercialy viable and in the public domain. May he live forever.
I wonder which musicians work from the 2000's will survive another few-hundred years. Adele?

There are many: Pink Floyd!!!!, Queen, Coldplay etc.

Deep Purple and Royal Philarmonic Orchestra At Royal Albert Hall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74I4pCmq2Cs

 

[mrrice]

The only ban I would support is on voiceovers/spoken word...

Wait.................What about Katelyn Osmond's "Kill Bill" Free Program? Choreographed by Me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7pt6Zzc1js

 

[Mathman]

Works of classical repertoire often exhibit complexity in their use of orchestration, counterpoint, harmony, musical development, rhythm,phrasing, texture, and form.

I would say "rhythm" the least of these. There are many examples of international music that feature more subtle, dynamic and interesting rhythms than the ONE-two-THREE-four, or ONE-two-three-ONE-two three of typical classical works. In American popular music in the second half of the twentieth century, this was all swept away anyway by the pulsing beat, than which nothing else matters. (The William Tell Overture notwithstanding. )

A classic is something that last forever, like that Greek vase we talked about or Robinson Crusoe or Shakespeare's plays, or a Mozart symphony."

Robinson Crusoe? If Bernstein had attended eighth grade in the U.S. in the 1950s he would have substituted Silas Marner or Ethan Frome here.

As for lasting forever, you never know. Charles Dickens wrote a dozen magnificent novels, with David Copperfield probably receiving the greatest critical acclaim. But the Dickens work that will live forever is the off-hand trifle "A Christmas Carol."

 

[Mathman]

Oh. It didn't come across to me as a fantasy.

I took the "ban" to mean something like, "wouldn't it be be lovely if we could catch a break from this deluge of vacuous pop music for a season?"

On the subject of lyrics, one example where it all came together was Michelle Kwan's Olympic exhibition to Fields of Gold. Come on, Michelle -- I'm already crying, did you have to lay the lyrics on me, too?

"You'll remember me when the west wind moves
Upon the fields of barley…"

Then again, just another day at the office:

http://66.media.tumblr.com/6a15af371350266146ca561e3ba34497/tumblr_nvlwjpHbb01qe2rtao4_400.gif

 

[skylark]

What else but a fantasy suggestion it could have been? You don't think I have some sort of a pull with the ISU to make it a real proposal? I wish...
Also I wish I could express myself better in English which is not alas my first language and it shows
I didn't realise people have such conflicting ideas regarding even definition of pop music. But all in all I think the discussion was not without interest.

Well, in my view we have plenty of discussions here which we have serious ideas and opinions about, even though we don't imagine that we have any pull with ISU.

I'm full of admiration for your command of English, as a second language. And again, I think your question prompted an interesting discussion. So thanks.

 

[Pamigena]

People’s attention clearly doesn’t span beyond first three or four words so the minute they read ‘ban’ they saw red and didn’t even bother to notice ‘for one season’ at all, never mind reading the OP.

Some people simply didn't agree with your idea. I don't see how that clearly equals not reading your posts or having the attention span of a fruit fly.

As for lasting forever, you never know. Charles Dickens wrote a dozen magnificent novels, with David Copperfield probably receiving the greatest critical acclaim. But the Dickens work that will live forever is the off-hand trifle "A Christmas Carol."

I was with a group of friends once and someone mentioned that she'd just read David Copperfield. Another one then asked "What? That magician dude has written a book?"

:roll9: took a while to get me back onto my chair