2015 US Nationals Senior Ladies FS Jan 24

[TwinnerA]

Do we know which of the top ladies from other countries will be at 4CC's yet?

 

[aviva_dawn]

I know this is a long shot but on the Junior dance alternate list for ice dance I think I saw Anthony Ponomarenko is that the same last name as that awesome couple from Russia? that won OGM I think in 1992 is what I read (They won OBM and OSM too in earlier olympics). Any relation?

Actually, that couple, Klimova/Ponomarenko married, had two boys and yes, Anthony is their (younger) son.

 

[Caustica]

The sad thing is that this program was actually better, choreographically, at the very start of the season. She used to do a Triple Flip at the start of the program with that BANG of the music. Now she opens with a Double Axel (not a great jump for her). It's just like...really? That's your big move right here? A telegraphed double axel? Then she does that lackluster 2Axel+2Toe not much later in the program. There isn't much purpose.

I'm guessing she does that so that she can have harder jumps in the second half, in order to raise BV. I think her 2A is timed really really well! It's one of my favourite parts of the programme.

 

[artsciboy]

The sad thing is that this program was actually better, choreographically, at the very start of the season. She used to do a Triple Flip at the start of the program with that BANG of the music. Now she opens with a Double Axel (not a great jump for her). It's just like...really? That's your big move right here? A telegraphed double axel? Then she does that lackluster 2Axel+2Toe not much later in the program. There isn't much purpose.

Who came blame Ashley for being strategic? She wanted to save her triples for the second half of the program to get the bonus. Is not like she changed or removed the transitions going into those jumping passes to accommodate the double axels (which by the way aren't telegraphed - there's the spiral and the walley/hop that she does going into them, respectively).

 

[BlackPack]

Two wrongs don't make a right. It underserves the entire sport when you score what Ashley did as "the best performance ever". A couple of friends who used to be HUGE into figure skating tried to watch Nationals and all they could think was "eh, she's fine".

If this kind of skating is being scored as some kind of phenomenal landmark, then there is 0 motivation for anyone to try and be more artistic. It all comes down to the technical only and PCS are nothing but how the judges feel like placing you. Not a real reflection of the skating skills, choreography, and musicality.

Agreed. Some bots and myopic fans have no idea of the transcendent skates that went before or after these skaters in the history of FS. It is certainly not the best of all time, but this Ladies Nationals is merely shadow of the golden age of Kwan. It simply supports the illusion and false hope that there may be a golden age yet to come. 10 years and counting...

I find it ironic that recently there was an interview with Rafael Arutunyan where he said that the current system is really the same system as before. Judges still inflate or deflate scores where they see fit or follow the sentiment of the crowds.

Sadly, this statement can be applied to Ashley's inflated scores. And Ashley apologists will always say that Nationals' scores are always inflated which is true. However, these American girls have no idea what they're up against internationally, and these inflated scores reinforce the idea that they're good enough with no improvements necessary. They say they do but they don't. They're not improving artistically and occasionally skate well enough technically.

 

[Mrs. P]

I just don't see the point of hyper analyzing to death. Ashley is a competitor and will certainly not rest on her achievement from last night.

And Ashley is not as dumb as people seem to think she is. She knows how she had scored internationally and how that had ranked to the other ladies and will work accordingly to be as competive as she can.

 

[jenaj]

Agreed. Some bots and myopic fans have no idea of the transcendent skates that went before or after these skaters in the history of FS. It is certainly not the best of all time, but this Ladies Nationals is merely shadow of the golden age of Kwan. It simply supports the illusion and false hope that there may be a golden age yet to come. 10 years and counting...

I find it ironic that recently there was an interview with Rafael Arutunyan where he said that the current system is really the same system as before. Judges still inflate or deflate scores where they see fit or follow the sentiment of the crowds.

Sadly, this statement can be applied to Ashley's inflated scores. And Ashley apologists will always say that Nationals' scores are always inflated which is true. However, these American girls have no idea what they're up against internationally, and these inflated scores reinforce the idea that they're good enough with no improvements necessary. They say they do but they don't. They're not improving artistically and occasionally skate well enough technically.

The "golden age of Kwan" for ladies skating in general died with the IJS. The Russian ladies aren't "golden" either, if artistry factors into the equation. And Ashley showed she could compete with them at the Grand Prix final. The scores at a given competition are meaningless. I agree with Artunian--the scores are still manipulated to determine the placements.

 

[Scovies]

Sadly, this statement can be applied to Ashley's inflated scores. And Ashley apologists will always say that Nationals' scores are always inflated which is true. However, these American girls have no idea what they're up against internationally, and these inflated scores reinforce the idea that they're good enough with no improvements necessary. They say they do but they don't. They're not improving artistically and occasionally skate well enough technically.

How can you say Ashley doesn't know what she's up against internationally when she spent her entire GP season getting beaten by Russian teenagers? Ashley flat-out said in her press conference that her GP season was so-so and she "wasn't giving anyone a reason to take [her] seriously." She's worked hard to fix her flutz and gotten it down to an unclear edge, which is pretty impressive considering she's been doing the jump incorrectly for a decade now. And she's added two brand-new (for her) triple-triples to her FS, and upped the technical content in her SP as well. How is this not improving?

 

[jenaj]

No, she shouldn't. Not if the 3 Russians skate their best. Gracie Gold is frankly better than these performances as well, if she can put two clean programs together.

Ashley should be capable of winning the World Championship if she skated clean SP+LP, as compared to the rest of the field this year, but she is very underserved by her programs. She has maturity over the rest of the field but the actual choreography and artistry isn't there. It could be but it isn't.



The triple toe was underrotated. Look at where her toepick leaves the ice. She turns on the ice an extra 1/4 turn before jumping. It's a cheat. She even does it on her double toeloop.

You're right that it was not a 133 program. It was actually quite a bit less than that; she was 20 points overscored. Two underrotated jumps, rather weak transitions, average skating skills, average footwork, mediocore spins (even less than that, given the mistake on the last spin of not holding the sit position), and the choreography isn't very good.

Scored correctly:

2Axel, +1 GOE = 3.8
3Lutz+3Toe< , +1.5 GOE = 9.95
2Axel+2Toe, 0 GOE = 4.6
FSSp4, +1 GOE = 3.5
CCoSp3, +1 GOE = 3.5
(jump bonus starts)
3Loop+1Looop+3Sal<, +.5 GOE = 9.81
3Flip, +.5 GOE = 6.18
3Loop, +1.5 GOE = 6.66
StSq4, +.5 GOE = 4.25 (received +3 GOE on this, which is one of the biggest jokes ever. Slow, shallow edges)
3Lutz, +1 GOE = 7.3
ChSq, +1.5 GOE = 3.05
FCCoSp1 (failed to do sit spin position), +1 GOE = 2.5

Tech Total = 65.1

Skating Skills - 8.0 = 12.8
Transitions - 7.5 = 12.0
Performance - 8.5 = 13.6
Choreography - 7.75 = 12.4
Interpretation - 8.0 = 12.8

PCS = 63.6

Total = 128.7

Your PC scores are too low and most would probably be the scores thrown out in an actual competition. As I recall, Ashley averaged 8s or close to 8s in PCS even with her flawed, last place SP at the GPF. I think at Nationals, which was her best skate all season, she deserved 9+ in Choreo, PE and I and around 8s in SS and Tr. That would give her around 70 for a 135 accepting your technical score, which I also think is too low.

 

[Sophie-Anna]

Agreed. Some bots and myopic fans have no idea of the transcendent skates that went before or after these skaters in the history of FS. It is certainly not the best of all time, but this Ladies Nationals is merely shadow of the golden age of Kwan. It simply supports the illusion and false hope that there may be a golden age yet to come. 10 years and counting...

I find it ironic that recently there was an interview with Rafael Arutunyan where he said that the current system is really the same system as before. Judges still inflate or deflate scores where they see fit or follow the sentiment of the crowds.

Sadly, this statement can be applied to Ashley's inflated scores. And Ashley apologists will always say that Nationals' scores are always inflated which is true. However, these American girls have no idea what they're up against internationally, and these inflated scores reinforce the idea that they're good enough with no improvements necessary. They say they do but they don't. They're not improving artistically and occasionally skate well enough technically.

It doesn't matter which system we have. We have this system of scoring before we had a different one. They're good and bad things about the both of them. We could make another system but figure skating(and also gymnastics, synchronized swimming etc.)will never have a perfect scoring system because it's judged by people and their personal opinions not by robots. And that's the reason why there are always so many discussions about competitions...So I agree with Rafael.

 

[Krunchii]

Ashley is one of those skaters who constantly talk about what they need to improve on in interviews, I highly doubt she thinks she can get those scores internationally. She has that competitive fire that I love to see and I don't see her slowing down her progress just because some Nationals judges gave her scores that said it was okay. I wonder how her 3Lz edge will be judged at 4CCs... I'd much much much rather her switch back to having 2 3Fs because the edge to me is crossing that line between unclear and wrong edge. It's just too risky for her, her 3F is one of my favourite jumps from her anyway.

The scores were definitely all too high and when Ashley got her score I already said US wins the award for biggest inflation. Her SS score shouldn't be higher than Gracie's and her transitions shouldn't have been either. Also the edge on her 3Lz, she got positive GOEs for all of them when I think a +1 GOE would have been generous. She got a 1.3 bonus on her 3Lz-3T when Yuna got a 1.5 and 1.6 bonus at Sochi. I could go on and on about the score but she still deserved to win.

People need to stop forcing their opinions as facts and calling people who don't agree with them myopic and Ashley apologists. I know where Ashley got overscored and what she needs to work on.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I just don't see the point of hyper analyzing.

LOL? You collect and post dozens of statistics on the daily and you don't see a point in actually analyzing performances based upon how they should be objectively scored?

Your PC scores are too low

No they aren't. If Patrick Chan's skating skills at his best are a '10', then Ashley Wagner's are an 8 in this performance.

 

[Enidan]

Ashley was good, no doubt. But that score. NO.

That score is well-deserved. Ashley is the special skater. Remember Ashley is the only US lady in the history that won US National title back to back, and she is also the 1st one to win 3 US National title OK.

 

[kimganos]

I just don't see the point of hyper analyzing to death. Ashley is a competitor and will certainly not rest on her achievement from last night.

And Ashley is not as dumb as people seem to think she is. She knows how she had scored internationally and how that had ranked to the other ladies and will work accordingly to be as competive as she can.

:agree: Give it a rest people!!! Yikes!!

 

[Meoima]

That score is well-deserved. Ashley is the special skater. Remember Ashley is the only US lady in the history that won US National title back to back, and she is also the 1st one to win 3 US National title OK.

Eh... Are you sure of what you are saying? 0_o!!!

 

[Mrs. P]

LOL? You collect and post dozens of statistics on the daily and you don't see a point in actually analyzing performances based upon how they should be objectively scored?

I said I don't see the point of hyper analysis, which is being done here. I already express my viewpoint -- namely she was scored relative to the field here. I don't agree that her combos were UR.

The point of collecting stats is to provide them and figure out what judges might have seen based on these scores. I am not an ISU trained judge. Understanding stats does not make me an expert at judging programs myself.

 

[CutieP]

No they aren't. If Patrick Chan's skating skills at his best are a '10', then Ashley Wagner's are an 8 in this performance.

But, ladies factor is 1.6 and men's 2.0, right? So Patrick's 10 is different to Ashley's 10. I also think she deserved a bit more than that in PCS. Maybe around 65

 

[Enidan]

Eh... Are you sure of what you are saying? 0_o!!!

Yes I'm SURE.

 

[Sophie-Anna]

That score is well-deserved. Ashley is the special skater. Remember Ashley is the only US lady in the history that won US National title back to back, and she is also the 1st one to win 3 US National title OK.

I agree she is special skater but I'm not sure if she is the first to win 3 us titles...Didn't Michelle Kwan win more? Or some lady before Michelle?

 

[Meoima]

Yes I'm SURE.

I assume you didn't watch Kwan back in those days.