2016 Cup of China Ladies SP

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

for Canada Haters how would the rest of the world fare without our coaches and coreographers.

Oh it's fine if we're at the boards. Just not on the podium.

 

[Tolstoj]

Your observation of the Canadian judge in this instance is accurate. However, using that one example to bash Canadians is completely ridiculous.

And also, has literally nothing to do with the comment you're responding to. What do the judging patterns of individual Canadian judges (who do not reflect the rest of the judging panel who also gave Kaetlyn high scores) have to do with Kaetlyn being deserving/undeserving of the rest of the scores she received?

Because i've seen this in the past especially in Skate Canada or whenever a canadian judge is involved at the point i'm starting to think that maybe this is normal for them.

Finlandia Trophy wasn't that different (J1 is the canadian judge)
http://www.figureskatingresults.fi/results/1617/CSFIN2016/CSFIN2016_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

This season we can see which judge gave what so we will see if that is systematic, maybe you're right.

The other point: Australia what the hell happened to you?

 

[lbamda]

https://instagram.fhen1-1.fna.fbcdn...95_1680321855592658_5103057760585515008_n.jpg

As usual, judges from Australia and New Zealand the most inadequate. Stupidly judge for AngloSax, heat other figure skaters. The Canadian judge - without comments, it is necessary to forbid to judge.

 

[andromache]

I mean, to be fair, I think Patrick Chan and D/R don't really get that much more hate than any other World Champion. Evgenia gets her fair share, as did Liza when she was on top. I've also observed that Javier has a ton of detractors, as do P/C. Plus non-World Champions Ashley and Gracie. In general, I don't think Canadian skaters get bashed more than others.

That said, I find the negativity surrounding Kaetlyn astounding. She's so well-rounded that I don't quite see what there is to hate, and she's had so little success/few opportunities compared to the other ladies who get hated on.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Enquiring minds wish to know what will be the results of Perceptions of (Insert)phobia in the threads of GS by the end of the season? With Russia and Canada vying for the top spot, will the United States and Japanese fans have a chance for the bronze? They certainly need to rack up some posts, if they do! Will the French fans ever give up bemoaning Didier to get in on the action? And will the Italians ever get out of third gear? Keep watching for all the thrilling instalments in the (Insert)phobia Olympics!

This is a tongue in cheek post. Don't hate me!

 

[amc987]

I guess I don't have a ton of problems with Osmond's skating. I agree that when she's on, she skates fast, she presents well when she's skating to upbeat/ sassy music, has clean jumps (except the LZ), has fast spins, etc. I think there is a put on aspect to her skating- her movements sometimes seem big and overdone, and the music is doing a lot of work in terms of her performance. She's also frequently overscored for what she actually does (e.g., Skate Canada- score should've been 3~ points lower in the short and 5~ points lower in the long. Same thing here.)

Plus, I think that 2 good performances (SP at Skate Canada and here) don't justify the fact that she's suddenly getting the same component scores as people who have done consistently well over several seasons. I see her as way less proven and less consistent than the top tier of skaters (Medvedeva, Radionova, Pogorilaya, Wagner, Miyahara, not slumping Gold). There are only a few people this quad who have gotten scores in the mid 70s for SPs and I don't see Kaetlyn on their level yet.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Because i've seen this in the past especially in Skate Canada or whenever a canadian judge is involved at the point i'm starting to think that maybe this is normal for them.

Finlandia Trophy wasn't that different (J1 is the canadian judge)
http://www.figureskatingresults.fi/results/1617/CSFIN2016/CSFIN2016_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

This season we can see which judge gave what so we will see if that is systematic, maybe you're right.

The other point: Australia what the hell happened to you?

Tolstoj, you can take any scores from a single competition to make any argument you like, but the fact is, when Canadians do well internationally, people like yourself, get annoyed to the point of blaming anything and everyone as a conspiracy. Your inflation accusations, get a wee bit tiresome, don't ya think?

Canadians are doing well because ...they have great skaters at the moment, case closed!

 

[mcq]

They're okay with us being polite and nice and whatnot... until we start winning. Duhamel/Radford weren't getting half the hate when they were only getting World bronze, but when they took measures to win, all of a sudden everyone was up in arms.

Now that Kaetlyn is actually giving the top skaters a run for their money (still early to say for sure), everyone is looking for reasons and ways to tear her down.

This happens to everyone, not just the Canadians I think. Look at Evgenia, she starts getting a lot of distaste too. Many were okay with Wagner prior to her world medal but now I have seen many complaints about her TR and PCS. Pogorilaya starts receiving criticism and hate too. I doubt many cares about Satoko Miyahara before she starts winning things and now there are so many pre-rotation thread talking about her mostly. Starts seeing people dissing P/C too in dance. When you start winning things, you get more scrutinized and more criticized, I guess. Though some are too harsh and occasionally baseless, I don't think this happen to just skaters from a certain country.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

What does Rika Hongo have to do to get some basic respect and love from judges and TP? :sad21:
I didn't love her SP that much at first, bur her commitment and fierceness are second to none, and by the end I was just happily smiling and excited. And then the second the judges score came up... it was just depressing. I can see that her basic skating skills are not the strongest, heck, I wouldn't even complain that much about the UR call (although I think it's wrong), but the judges were so stingy with her overall. It's not even that I could pick out one judge and say 'ugh, you!', it's just the whole collective stinginess of all these stingy judges. Ugh. It's frustrating, for me, just as an audience member - it must be so frustrating for Rika. I admire her so much for attacking and performing the way she does despite the judges giving her the middle finger again. She should easily be 4th, and IMO pretty close to Mai. Hopefully she'll skate really well tomorrow. Go Rika!

On the positive side, Kaetlyn that girl has everything and more - powerful jumps with tons of speed, personality, charm, complex choreography, edge work, flow, musicality... sure we can argue if her marks are a bit too high here or there (as we can with basically all the top ladies too), but I'm very glad she's rewarded for all her qualities instead of being held back because she doesn't have enough reputation or isn't from a bigger fed or whatever. Kaetlyn is exactly the kind of skater I'd show to my friends when I want to get them into figure skating, and that's the biggest compliment I can make. Just

 

[Tolstoj]

Tolstoj, you can take any scores from a single competition to make any argument you like, but the fact is, when Canadians do well internationally, people like yourself, get annoyed to the point of blaming anything and everyone as a conspiracy. Your inflation accusations, get a wee bit tiresome, don't ya think?

Canadians are doing well because ...they have great skaters at the moment, case closed!

That's not true, as i said many times i don't have these problems. What i don't like is when the inflation goes over the merit, because it kills the competition.

The pic ibamda posted explains this very well.

https://instagram.fhen1-1.fna.fbcdn...95_1680321855592658_5103057760585515008_n.jpg

I understand the home advantage, the reputation,... enough is enough. :noshake:

 

[Ares]

What does Rika Hongo have to do to get some basic respect and love from judges and TP? :sad21:
I didn't love her SP that much at first, bur her commitment and fierceness are second to none, and by the end I was just happily smiling and excited. And then the second the judges score came up... it was just depressing. I can see that her basic skating skills are not the strongest, heck, I wouldn't even complain that much about the UR call (although I think it's wrong), but the judges were so stingy with her overall. It's not even that I could pick out one judge and say 'ugh, you!', it's just the whole collective stinginess of all these stingy judges. Ugh. It's frustrating, for me, just as an audience member - it must be so frustrating for Rika. I admire her so much for attacking and performing the way she does despite the judges giving her the middle finger again. She should easily be 4th, and IMO pretty close to Mai. Hopefully she'll skate really well tomorrow. Go Rika!

On the positive side, Kaetlyn that girl has everything and more - powerful jumps with tons of speed, personality, charm, complex choreography, edge work, flow, musicality... sure we can argue if her marks are a bit too high here or there (as we can with basically all the top ladies too), but I'm very glad she's rewarded for all her qualities instead of being held back because she doesn't have enough reputation or isn't from a bigger fed or whatever. Kaetlyn is exactly the kind of skater I'd show to my friends when I want to get them into figure skating, and that's the biggest compliment I can make. Just

I watched slow-motion of Rika's 3T-3T combination and I don't see any UR, looks bogus :noshake: The one for Karen Chen on 2nd part of her combo was deserving though.

 

[unico]

Since when has this whole Canadian victim complex become a thing? Actually all nationalities, Russian, American, etc, even down to X's fans all hate Y therefore all of X's fans criticisms are invalid.... Hand wringing and overgeneralizing of posters' motives is really not a good look. Isn't it better to actually take a look at criticism, try to see someone else's point of view, and acknowledge that just like posters, judges are not infallible or without bias. If you think Osmond is great, fantastic, deserves her scores, is marked appropriately compared to others, all the good stuff, maybe ask yourself why someone like her could be polarizing without belittling it down to "oh, they're just jealous and hate Canadians" :disapp:

 

[mrrice]

Hear, hear as we Canadians say!

Speaking of things you "Canadians Say" I have a question. Why do you put, "Eh" at the end of statements? Like, "That's good coffee, Eh!" Instead of the way we'd say it in the US. "Hey, that's good coffee!" When you say, "Eh" does it mean, "Don't you agree?" Kind of like "I Know, Right!" which is a common thing to say here in the US. At least here in California.

 

[MaiKatze]

What does Rika Hongo have to do to get some basic respect and love from judges and TP? :sad21:
I didn't love her SP that much at first, bur her commitment and fierceness are second to none, and by the end I was just happily smiling and excited. And then the second the judges score came up... it was just depressing. I can see that her basic skating skills are not the strongest, heck, I wouldn't even complain that much about the UR call (although I think it's wrong), but the judges were so stingy with her overall. It's not even that I could pick out one judge and say 'ugh, you!', it's just the whole collective stinginess of all these stingy judges. Ugh. It's frustrating, for me, just as an audience member - it must be so frustrating for Rika. I admire her so much for attacking and performing the way she does despite the judges giving her the middle finger again. She should easily be 4th, and IMO pretty close to Mai. Hopefully she'll skate really well tomorrow. Go Rika!

On the positive side, Kaetlyn that girl has everything and more - powerful jumps with tons of speed, personality, charm, complex choreography, edge work, flow, musicality... sure we can argue if her marks are a bit too high here or there (as we can with basically all the top ladies too), but I'm very glad she's rewarded for all her qualities instead of being held back because she doesn't have enough reputation or isn't from a bigger fed or whatever. Kaetlyn is exactly the kind of skater I'd show to my friends when I want to get them into figure skating, and that's the biggest compliment I can make. Just

Unfortunately I think what we see with Rika is the opposite of what we see with the 'anointed ones' as I like to call them - but in the opposite direction. Rika is anointed, too. Anointed to never get anywhere near the podium again. I hate conspiracy theories but what happened at SC and what happpened here is a systematic destroying of a skaters confidence. No matter if she skates well tomorrow, she will fail. (She did skate well in the SP so it wasn't like she sucked or something) It has been decided. Maybe even with help from the fed. It seemed they were never that keen on Akiko either, maybe their coach has made some enemies.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Unfortunately I think what we see with Rika is the opposite of what we see with the 'anointed ones' as I like to call them - but in the opposite direction. Rika is anointed, too. Anointed to never get anywhere near the podium again. I hate conspiracy theories but what happened at SC and what happpened here is a systematic destroying of a skaters confidence. No matter if she skates well tomorrow, she will fail. (She did skate well in the SP so it wasn't like she sucked or something) It has been decided. Maybe even with help from the fed. It seemed they were never that keen on Akiko either, maybe their coach has made some enemies.

Yes... and Rikas situation reminds me a lot of Akiko too. Akiko had something special, and it was something the judges never seemed to see, no matter how much fans and audiences seemed to love her (and in my perception, Akiko was always very beloved by fans, commentators and audiences). I don't get this. Even if their coach is not well liked by the fed, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Rika might never be a world medal contender, but she's consistent, she gets the audience going - that's the kind of skater that saves your nation that dang 3rd spot when the 'golden girls' mess up. But no, for whatever reason, she gets screwed over.

 

[happyskate6]

Since when has this whole Canadian victim complex become a thing? Actually all nationalities, Russian, American, etc, even down to X's fans all hate Y therefore all of X's fans criticisms are invalid.... Hand wringing and overgeneralizing of posters' motives is really not a good look. Isn't it better to actually take a look at criticism, try to see someone else's point of view, and acknowledge that just like posters, judges are not infallible or without bias. If you think Osmond is great, fantastic, deserves her scores, is marked appropriately compared to others, all the good stuff, maybe ask yourself why someone like her could be polarizing without belittling it down to "oh, they're just jealous and hate Canadians" :disapp:

I think the very best skaters (Medvedeva, Wagner, Asada, Radionova, Gold, Miyahara, Tuktamysheva...) will always generate polarizing comments. Now that Osmond has, deservedly, joined their ranks, she will unfortunately be subjected to the same polarization. Great artistry is either loved or hated. Mediocre artists never get criticized because they are uninteresting.

Luckily, the judges see past this and reward skaters accordingly...most of the time.

 

[qwerty]

Ironically, I thought Ashley's spins were the highlight of that program. The jumps were obviously not at her usual standard, and the step sequence, and a few in-betweens, looked a bit on edge with little trips, or near-trips.

 

[Karpenko]

The Canadian judge here was wayyy out of line. But her scores would probably be thrown out in almost every case and not affected her standing. Not to mention, as you've said, other judges have been really unabashedly pro-home country skaters and we could find tons of examples.

My issue with it is many people who complain majorly about other skaters from other countries being gifted are the ones defending the scoring when the shoe is on the other foot. The hypocrisy I've seen is pretty mind boggling to say the least.

It's wrong when all of the countries do this, but I see a lot of rationalizing when it happens with Osmond just because it happens elsewhere?

She's got great jumps. Excellent speed. She's definitely one of the best, I just hate looking at the scorecard and seeing such bias knowing that in all likelihood it's being done "because the other countries do it". That drives me batty! She really has great speed and jumps though, when she skates well it'll be tough to beat her. She's still a bit too stiff and lacks control for me to be getting into the 9's, it's kind of fishy how one judge will score Kaetlyn a 77 but none of the other scores are even close to that. The judge should be called on their extreme bias just as all of the others (who were anonymous) to come beforehand IMO.

 

[Daniel1998]

At this point I've stopped caring what others think of Kaetlyn's scores.
To me she's one of the few skaters with the total package- jumps, spins, speed, maturity, and performance quality. She exudes such joy and class when she skates. If anyone's going to be overscored, I'm glad it's her.
All fellow Kaetlyn fans: stop worrying about what others think of her and just enjoy her performances every time she steps on the ice. I think that's all she'd want us to do.

 

[andromache]

Plus, I think that 2 good performances (SP at Skate Canada and here) don't justify the fact that she's suddenly getting the same component scores as people who have done consistently well over several seasons. I see her as way less proven and less consistent than the top tier of skaters (Medvedeva, Radionova, Pogorilaya, Wagner, Miyahara, not slumping Gold). There are only a few people this quad who have gotten scores in the mid 70s for SPs and I don't see Kaetlyn on their level yet.

Idk, I'm actually starting to think that the "consistency" PCS bonus is a bit less of a real thing than we think it is. Those skaters you've listed have benefited from inflation - Gracie Gold of all people does not have a consistency bonus. When someone new or old suddenly starts skating at that level, it's wrong to penalize them for "well you haven't skated this well for very long." I gave prime examples of this earlier in the thread: should Adelina in 2014 or Anna P. at Worlds last year have received less in PCS than the people who had been skating consistently all season and/or been at the top for longer? Of course not.

But I think some (not all) critics of Kaetlyn's scores only have a problem with her scores because she's not a certain nationality.

ETA: I'd go so far as to call Kaetlyn the Adelina Sotnikova of Canada. Lots of speed, huge jumps, doesn't have a history of being at the top but is still being pushed as the #1 by a country without a history of enormous success in ladies. Lots of inconsistency leading to PCS of only slightly above average, so then when she skates well and gets PCS on par with the ladies who've been at the top for longer, people get ticked off. The major difference is that the people who supported Adelina most are the ones all mad about Kaetlyn now, and vice versa.