2017 Four Continents Men SP
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Wow, I just look at this so differently (not the first time that's been said)
You can say you're going to add 80 gazillion quads to your program. You can even show us vids of pretty ones on the practice ice ... look, a quint axel! What great BV!:sarcasm:
But when I go whooooah, is when you *land* them in a program *during a comp*. And super whooooah, you need to land them in a comp where you have transitions, steps, and hopefully music that makes sense for those jumps, transitions and steps. Out of this world: add great spins.
But it does increase the page count, and that's impressive:agree:
It's the history of quadster show downs once again.
Once upon the time, a quad toe jump was invented by the great Kurt Browning. Others soon acquired the skills and won competitions with it. Then 4T combo was pioneered by Stojko and the quadsters were kings, the world champs and Olympic champs, until a new generation of skating wonders came along to take advantage of the new scoring system to build points with their skating skills and high GOE non-quad elements. The old quadsters and their fans protested loudly. So the ISU upped the BV of quads and cut down step sequences. Then Patrick Chan, the quadless wonder, went along with it and started adding quads to his intricate programs and dominated Mens figure skating. That was the era of great skating with quads from all major medalists. New quad jumps were attempted here and there and began to show up in competition programs. Chan took a year off. What happened during that time? A new generation of young quadsters came of age and found a new way to shake up the figure skating world and threaten to take over dominance by overwhelming their rivals with a plethora and full spectrum of quad jumps! A great program with a quad or two just doesn't cut it any more.
So there, el henry, I totally agree with you opinion on the beauty and difficulty of integrating quads in a well rounded and balanced program and doing them in competition. However, the scoring power of quads is such that them quads alone, in a mediocre program with so so skating, could triumph over beautifully skated and performed program with fewer quads. This is the new era.
Will the pendulum swing back with ISU's backing?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
:thumbsup:
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
Guys, you dont just throw quads into your programs like it's the end of the world
If you want to win, you probably do.
Just fact. This season has been a game-changer. And it's not just Nathan Chen. The sport is advancing athletically, and it is happening quickly.
Think about it: Last season Javier Fernandez won World's with a flawed SP and a wonderful 3 Quad LP. Not even a year later, and guys are throwing 6-7 quads in a competition.
"Arms Race" is a little too dramatic for my tastes, but I get the sentiment. Veterans, you need to keep up or get off the podium. These youngsters aren't going to "wait their turn."
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
I am so tired of hearing this by now. Do people throwing this around really think they understood something all this 'old veterans' in their ignorance haven't? Especially when that means Yuzuru (4Lo & 4 quad LP?) or Patrick (introducing 4S?), who are very obviously quite understanding about what's going on. (Javi a little less, but he still also upped his BV only last season).
And no, it's not just this season - there were already 6 quad competitions last season. And no, it really isn't 'only' Nathan, as the guy to land 4 quads in one program for the first time ever internationally and who got on the Worlds podium last season was Boyang Jin.
Also is a matter of strategy and injury. If some believe the best way to win competitions is to do 6-7 quads, that's great, but not everyone has the ability or even the desire to do so. That doesn't mean they don't care about being competitive. They just believe they can be competitive in other ways in addition to the jumps.
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Totally agree. Was listening to an interview with Mike Slipchuk, Canada's high performance director, from the 4CC practices today. He spoke about how veterans like Patrick had upped their jumps, but that fully rounded competitors would be advantaged in this and other disciplines.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
Well, I didn't mean to offend you. But I'm also not sorry I did. You'll get over it. Or not.
My statement was an observation. Why exactly do you think the "old veterans" have suddenly upped the technical ante? It's not because they necessarily wanted to. It's because they had to. The youngsters aren't going to win on reputation or components. They're going to win (or attempt to) by crushing the "old guys" on TES. The "old guys" are having to defend against this strategy.
I also understand Nathan is not the only young gun applying the pressure, which is why I wrote that it wasn't only Nathan.
My intention was to muse on how quickly the sport is advancing. Really fast. A 4 quad program was almost a freak of nature a year ago. Now, a lot of skaters are attempting that. Or more.
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- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
Oh wait, I just saw that Mark Webster is competing. That means we'll hear the Nokia 3310 ringtone SP!I seriously wonder what kind of commentary the B.ESP guys will have to say about that lol.
I am eagerly awaiting commentary. Of any kind, English or Russian or Japanese or...just for the factor of them not quite believing what they're hearing.
I hadn't actually seen this before. I don't even know whether to laugh or
Laugh and enjoy. It's super voidy and super fun.
Last I heard, B.ESP (or any Eurosport for that matter?) isn't planning on showing any 4CC.
Boo, I wanted BESP commentary on the Nokia SP.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
This is certainly true. Quads get more points than anything else, so quads it is. Now that skaters like Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen have shown that it's easy as pie to do four or five quads, we can't put the genie back in the bottle again.
But attempting is not the same as executing. Just because someone attempts a a certain number of quads doesn't mean the sport has arrived to that point. There's a reason it took 20+ years for the quad jump to really become a standard in men's figure skating.
At what cost does advancing the sport via having the most quads come with? Shorter careers? I honestly don't see Nathan lasting much longer post 2018-- you can only be at this level of technical ability for so long. What if you're a skater who wants to last a few Olympic cycles? Can you do that while trying to do 6-7 quad per competition consistently?
And I'm glad there are people who are not going that route for the simple reason that, if nothing else, skaters of ALL levels can see there are different ways to grow as a skater. Do we want a sport where little kids think the only way to succeed to is to push yourself to add elements before you're ready to do them? That's just asking for injury and bad technique.
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- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
To me a big consideration is the skaters' health, short and long term. Patrick is a rare one to add new quad(s) and an additional 3A as a mature skater. He's wise enough to do it carefully but some accomplished Men have suffered injuries trying to learn and add a quad to their programs. We don't know how the young quadsters will hold up but Nathan has expressed he wants to do it while he can, believing it will be harder as he gets older. We see the same thinking with girls who are in a rush to get their jumps without investing in basic skills and techniques because their "old age" comes earlier. Will figure skating become a young men's sport as the jumping prodigies have to scale back or quit a short career?
Observation of the long term consequences of early and prolific quad jumping will take some time. We have to wait to see how all this will impact the new young quadsters' careers and their lives after the skating careers. Or do we? Will ISU monitor this wave along the way?
Observation of the long term consequences of early and prolific quad jumping will take some time. We have to wait to see how all this will impact the new young quadsters' careers and their lives after the skating careers. Or do we? Will ISU monitor this wave along the way?
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- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Why the heck would you think anyone who disagrees with you is *offended*; that one is out of left field.
And, to use a bolded sentence, Get some wood, build a bridge and get over your own opinion. Or not. I disagree, and I assure you the last thing I am is "offended"If you think that the *only* reason that the old vets are upping their "tech" (and I put tech in quotes because jumps are not the end-all and be-all of "tech", IMHO), I see no proof of that and would disagree. To succeed in a sport as individual and as difficult as figure skating requires the most intense of self-motivation.
And if that (ETA: disliking multiple jumps for the sake of jumps, at the expense of other elements) makes me Oldy Van Moldy standing in the way of the inexorable march of "progress", well, I've been called worse.
But the problem is that all these young guns aren't going to land all these jumps in comp. And their programs suffer when they don't have spins, steps or transitions to match the jumps. And *I* suffer when I watch it.
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- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
I'm not offended, I'm annoyed. Because I've read comments like yours way too often now, and they don't get any more amusing or right with time.
The old veterans have suddenly upped the technical ante? Yuzu has been constantly upping his technical ante basically since ever - he very much wants to. Javi had a 3 quad LP before it was cool and before the 'youngster' could count to 4 (okay, probably not quite, but since a looong time). Patrick could count as the only one here who gets 'pushed' right now, but I'd say he might as well want to keep up with Yuzu and Javi, more than with the 'youngsters'.
The youngster are amazing and it's true they're serious competition, but comments like yours are just completely besides the point. Great youngsters coming up =/= 'old veterans' losing their worth. Your comment wasn't an observation, it was weird over-dramatizing.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
True. Attempting is not the same as executing. But the more who are attempting a quad-centric, the more likely it is that someone will hit them.
Look at the number who have a real chance of doing that... and by "real chance" I mean those younger ones who have done it, or gotten close, in competition. Chen, Jin, Shoma... I'm sure they're are more.
As far as longevity, I think it depends on the skater's goals. Hanyu wants to win another OGM. I'm not so sure Nathan Chen wants to compete that long. I've read on the internet (so it MUST be true!) that he wants to compete while he's young and move on to an academic career.
There's nothing that says either of those is more noble than the other.
As far as the "little kids" argument. Mrs. P, you know I admire you, but that's a red herring. In every sport, elite athletes with more ability than others will rise to the top. It doesn't matter if it's figure skating or tennis or the NBA.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
I've never implied... or at least I've never intended to imply... that "old veterans" are losing their worth. I still regularly YouTube John Curry, for Pete's sake.
For context, my post was a reply to some comment about how skaters didn't need all the quads. I think they do.
Again, my original point was how much the sport has advanced technically in a year when viewed as a whole. More skaters doing more quads. I still maintain that this is true. At this rate, the only men's triples we'll see in some programs at the Olympics will be at the end of a combination. Except for 3A.
Truce. So long as I'm not preached at.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
From Mrs.P, That's just asking for injury and bad technique.
I can't say enough about how true this comment is...I curse the day that Switch Leaps and Fouette turns entered the Dance "Team" arena:dev2:. These turns are very difficult however, if the captain is the only who can do them correctly, let her enter the solo division. Even then, I've so many soloists try fouettes and some of them travel into the next room because they can't hold center and are falling off of Relevet.
Switch Leaps:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t67LeuYJIL0
Fouettes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxT5gnXs4Ug
Getting back to skaters. I will never forget seeing a "young skater" for the first time. He was so IMO, "Overhyped" for his ability to land a quad Lutz that he unfortunately, never learned how to skate. Yes he could jump but, he was not a strong performer and his other skills were a bit lacking. Especially his spins. I love a nice jump filled program but, these empty, transition free programs are getting dull. Give me Patrick and a 3 quad program along with his beautiful deep edges, fast and centered spins, and his ability to lull an arena full of fans into a quiet trance any day of the week.
I can't say enough about how true this comment is...I curse the day that Switch Leaps and Fouette turns entered the Dance "Team" arena:dev2:. These turns are very difficult however, if the captain is the only who can do them correctly, let her enter the solo division. Even then, I've so many soloists try fouettes and some of them travel into the next room because they can't hold center and are falling off of Relevet.
Switch Leaps:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t67LeuYJIL0
Fouettes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxT5gnXs4Ug
Getting back to skaters. I will never forget seeing a "young skater" for the first time. He was so IMO, "Overhyped" for his ability to land a quad Lutz that he unfortunately, never learned how to skate. Yes he could jump but, he was not a strong performer and his other skills were a bit lacking. Especially his spins. I love a nice jump filled program but, these empty, transition free programs are getting dull. Give me Patrick and a 3 quad program along with his beautiful deep edges, fast and centered spins, and his ability to lull an arena full of fans into a quiet trance any day of the week.
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- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
Yes, because they are missing all those pesky things that make a program that much more difficult and complex so their jumps are pretty much what's left. Remove the steps, the transitions, stop bothering with skating skills, interpretation, quality spins, etc and suddenly programs get a whole lot easier. The 'veterans' can jump too, they just have a much more overall difficult thing on their plates. One quad less, a single jump, in Hanyu's case is nothing compared to the difference in overall quality that skews towards him. And since skating is still figure skating and not jumping on ice, I'll take the 'veterans' who (not counting the awkward middle child Hanyu in terms of age) at 26 and almost 26 are still medal holders and contenders while they're superior overall skaters, in both the components and jumping technique.
Hanyu Yuzuru is about to graduate from Waseda University, he's reading Human Informatics and Cognitive Sciences so I'm not sure where you are going with that.
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- Joined
- Jan 22, 2017
I read somewhre in internet too, that judge looking for a new star to promote figure skating, the one from Europe or US, but isn't that kind of irony if I say Nathan win the next OGM as a new star and decide to retire after Oly instead coz he want to pursue his study? if the star already retire how will they promote the sport?
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