2017 Jr Worlds Mens FS

[Ares]

It's a new era not only in US Men's skating, but in Men's skating in general, since Boyang. The current crop of juniors continue the trend of massive tech progress started by Boyang and continued by Shoma and Nathan. Juniors with 2 or 3 quads? What's next?

Quad Axel.

 

[chuckm]

Petrov actually already competed at 2 senior GP events for 2 season straight and also Europeans last season, i don't know why he went back to junior world to be honest.

Petrov was 8th at 2016 Euros; in the 2015-16 GP, he placed 5th and 6th, and in the 2016-17 GP, 7th and 6th. Not having a quad definitely was a factor in his low placements. And in senior competition, one quad in the FS won't help him move up.

 

[rkttpqms]

The Russian boys are not really capable to compete among the Seniors. Aliev is the best one cause he knows how to express his emotions and his skills are so good (not the jumps tho).
Except for Dmitri, Samarin (18!!) and Petrov (17) will not successfully advance to the Senior competitions, just in my opinion.

 

[lakeforest]

My only wish for Vincent is that he stops growing. He is only sixteen and half! if he grows another two inches things might be different. Nathan's height hasn't changed since last year. so his jumps should be stable from now on.

 

[silverlake22]

My only wish for Vincent is that he stops growing. He is only sixteen and half! if he grows another two inches things might be different. Nathan's height hasn't changed since last year. so his jumps should be stable from now on.

Vincent isn't that tall. His legs are long but he looks a good 3 inches shorter than the 2 Russians on the podium with him, I think he's about the same height as Nathan, maybe 5'5" or 5'6"? Unless he grows several more inches I don't think his height will be a problem, especially given his slender body type.

 

[ice coverage]

A photo of the list of men invited to perform in the gala is in this tweet:

https://twitter.com/acco_cocoa/status/842561888902774784 (Mar 16)​

The medalists + Cha + Kazuki Tomono + Chih-I Tsao + (local) Yu-Hsiang Li.

p.s. Congratulations to Zhou, Aliev, and Samarin .

 

[skatelikewind1966]

Late to the dance here but wanted to give props to Vincent who is simply amazing and so well balanced. Not only is he a top athlete, he is a fantastic student and an even better young man! Because of this he has such a bright future and so many options proving that hard work, commitment and the desire to be the best (along with some talent, lol) is the true recipe for success. It is not often that an athlete is at the top of his/her sport while also having such academic discipline that will really open future doors. Congrats to him for all of his hard work and perseverance.

Alexei had another decent performance and should be proud of what he accomplished this season! I just hope he can put it all together, clean up some of his skating so to break out from the middle of the pack and become a true contender.

 

[Mrs. P]

Alexei had another decent performance and should be proud of what he accomplished this season! I just hope he can put it all together, clean up some of his skating so to break out from the middle of the pack and become a true contender.

I agree, I think Alexei has made considerable progress this season. Still a lot to work on, but he's come a long way in the last year. It sounds like he has a good team guiding him and a positive training environment.

 

[TontoK]

Quad Axel.

The first 3Z was completed in competition in 1962. It took 49 years for the sport to progress to the first 4Z.

The first 3A was completed in competition in 1978. Based on the progression of the lutz, we shouldn't expect a 4A until 2027.

That's just using history as a guide, but I'd be very surprised to see it any time soon.

But stranger things have happened.

 

[Art&Sport]

The Russian boys are not really capable to compete among the Seniors. Aliev is the best one cause he knows how to express his emotions and his skills are so good (not the jumps tho).
Except for Dmitri, Samarin (18!!) and Petrov (17) will not successfully advance to the Senior competitions, just in my opinion.

In general I agree with you that both Samarin and Petrov have less potential for growth than a lot of the skaters who competed in Tapei. But note that Petrov is already a senior competitor for a few years now. Yes, ITA that Petrov looks more like a solid journeyman who is maxed out his potential. As well, Samarin does not appear to have range or growth potential. However, judging by former Russian jumping bean oldsters, these two may hang around and hang around forever like Menshov and Voronov. :sarcasm:

Samarin and Petrov had absolutely no business receiving the PCS scores they received and they were over-scored on tech as well. I'm sure they are hard workers, and they are both good jumpers, and Petrov is known to be fairly consistent. However, Petrov is not known to have quads, and he's certainly no Jason Brown in terms of unique stylistic qualities, so what's with such high scores? It's politics pure and simple. It looks like the judges were trying to aim to put the Russians 1,2,3 on the podium, but couldn't manage because Vincent knocked their socks off and foiled their plans.

In the sp, it should have been Jun Hwan Cha in first, Aliev in second, and Zhou in third. In the fp, Jun Hwan Cha should have won bronze at least. So what that Cha had a fall in the fp. It looks like the judges used that to keep his scores down as much as they could to keep at least two Russians on the podium. Meanwhile, Samarin and Petrov were not completely solid on all of their jump landings. There is absolutely nothing special about the skating of either Samarin or Petrov. I will give Petrov credit for solidity and for trying hard. He has improved his style slightly, but he's not unique at all -- he's an average skater.

Samarin's fp was slightly better than his sp stylistically, but again, even though Samarin tries hard I really see no long term promise in him stylistically or artistically. Plus he was wobbly and fell out of a landing and was awkward on others. The PCS he received is dumbfounding and highly questionable. It's as if the judges need training in how to accurately assess what constitutes performance quality! Jun Hwan Cha took to the ice and you could see the bravura possibilities written all over him. Cha is a special skater, and I think it's an absolute disgrace that he was purposely kept off the podium.

Samarin came out for the medal ceremony looking like he was pissed that he came in third. He should have felt lucky he was even on the podium at all! Aliev did not perform great, but Aliev clearly has much better performance qualities than Samarin and Petrov. But honestly Cha should have more realistically been in second overall with Aliev in third and Samarin and Petrov only 5th and 6th in the fp, and maybe 4th and 5th overall. It must be some kind of pecking order attitude and the lack of Korea having as much political clout as to why Cha did not get on the podium ahead of the Russians.

Why did Krasnozhon lose so many points? Did they go over his performance with a fine tooth comb? Kras lost 10 points on his tech score in the fp, with skating fairly well. Why was he dropped to 10th in the fp? Kras should more likely have been at least 7th overall, but 8th overall is not bad under the circumstances of the wacky judging. Still, the only reason Kras apparently lost 10 points on tech is so that the scoring and placements could be manipulated. I'm at least glad that Kras was happy with his overall results. He had to skate after Roman Sadovsky and Nic Nadeau tanked, and there wasn't a lot of energy in the rink. So good job for Kras coming through and keeping his wits about him.

Sorry to see what happened to Nic and Roman. Nic won silver last year, and he's certainly good enough among this group to have scored higher, if he hadn't popped at least 3 jumping passes. Nic must have lost at least 25 points or so. Nic is still rough around the edges, but he has better presentation skills than Samarin, and Nic is at least on a par with what Petrov is able to do stylistically. I would say that had Nic skated the way he could, he should have been at least 4th or 5th among this group, ahead of Aymoz and also ahead of Petrov and Samarin if politics did not have Petrov and Samarin being held up so much, especially on PCS. Roman's skating fluidity is sublime, but he apparently needs more time to mature and take better command of his competitive talent and his technique.

Good for Samohin skating better in the fp (he won Junior Worlds last year due to Nathan Chen being out injured). However, Samohin is NOT a great skater stylistically. He's stiff and he doesn't have great lines, interpretation or musical sensibilities. His PCS score is just WRONG. He won last year and he's not had a great season for one reason or another. I wonder why he came back to compete in juniors again with the season he's been having? Surely, he did not think it was a slam dunk he could win juniors again?!

Of the lower ranked skaters, what is up with Tomono pulling up by so much in the fp? Tomono did not skate that great to receive those kinds of marks! That one is a real head-scratcher. Again, it smacks of behind-the-scenes politics.

Bummed for Sondre Oddvoll Boe not being able to show better what he could do in the fp. But chalk it up to his gaining some experience. He lost at least 10 to 12 points after popping at least two jumping passes. He has a lovely style and great potential. I also very much enjoy Sihyeong Lee's skating. And Japan's Shimada to me seems a better skater presentation-wise than Tomono.

 

[madison]

Samarin and Petrov had no business receiving the PCS scores they received and they were over-scored on tech as well. They are both good jumpers, and Petrov is known to be fairly consistent. However, Petrov is not known to have quads, and he's certainly no Jason Brown in terms of unique stylistic qualities, so what's with such high scores? It's politics pure and simple. It looks like the judges were trying to aim to put the Russians 1,2,3 on the podium, but couldn't manage because Vincent knocked their socks off and foiled their plans.

In the sp, it should have been Jun Hwan Cha in first, Aliev in second, and Zhou in third. In the fp, Jun Hwan Cha should have won bronze at least. So what that Cha had a fall in the fp. It looks like the judges used that to keep his scores down as much as they could to keep at least two Russians on the podium. Meanwhile, Samarin and Petrov were not completely solid on all of their jump landings. There is absolutely nothing special about the skating of either Samarin or Petrov. I will give Petrov credit for solidity and for trying hard. He has improved his style slightly, but he's not unique at all -- he's an average skater.

Samarin's fp was slightly better than his sp stylistically, but again, even though Samarin tries hard I really see no long term promise in him stylistically or artistically. Plus he was wobbly and fell out of a landing and was awkward on others. The PCS he received is dumbfounding and highly questionable. It's as if the judges need training in how to accurately assess what constitutes performance quality! Jun Hwan Cha took to the ice and you could see the bravura possibilities written all over him. Cha is a special skater, and I think it's an absolute disgrace that he was purposely kept off the podium.

Petrov came out for the medal ceremony looking like he was pissed that he came in third. He should have felt lucky he was even on the podium at all! Aliev did not perform great, but Aliev clearly has much better performance qualities than Samarin and Petrov. But honestly Cha should have more realistically been in second overall with Aliev in third and Samarin and Petrov only 5th and 6th in the fp, and maybe 4th and 5th overall. It must be some kind of pecking order attitude and the lack of Korea having as much political clout as to why Cha did not get on the podium ahead of the Russians.

Why did Krasnozhon lose so many points? Did they go over his performance with a fine tooth comb? Kras lost 10 points on his tech score in the fp, with skating fairly well. Why was he dropped to 10th in the fp? Kras should more likely have been at least 7th overall, but 8th overall is not bad under the circumstances of the wacky judging. Still, the only reason Kras apparently lost 10 points on tech is so that the scoring and placements could be manipulated. I'm at least glad that Kras was happy with his overall results. He had to skate after Roman Sadovsky and Nic Nadeau tanked, and there wasn't a lot of energy in the rink. So good job for Kras coming through and keeping his wits about him.

Sorry to see what happened to Nic and Roman. Nic won silver last year, and he's certainly good enough among this group to have scored higher, if he hadn't popped at least 3 jumping passes. Nic must have lost at least 25 points or so. Nic is still rough around the edges, but he has better presentation skills than Samarin, and Nic is at least on a par with what Petrov is able to do stylistically. I would say that had Nic skated the way he could, he should have been at least 4th or 5th among this group, ahead of Aymoz and also ahead of Petrov and Samarin if politics did not have Petrov and Samarin being held up so much, especially on PCS. Roman's skating fluidity is sublime, but he apparently needs more time to mature and take better command of his competitive talent and his technique.

Good for Samohin skating better in the fp (he won Junior Worlds last year due to Nathan Chen being out injured). However, Samohin is NOT a great skater stylistically. He's stiff and he doesn't have great lines, interpretation or musical sensibilities. His PCS score is just WRONG. He won last year and he's not had a great season for one reason or another. I wonder why he came back to compete in juniors again with the season he's been having? Surely, he did not think it was a slam dunk he could win juniors again?!

Of the lower ranked skaters, what is up with Tomono pulling up by so much in the fp? Tomono did not skate that great to receive those kinds of marks! That one is a real head-scratcher. Again, it smacks of behind-the-scenes politics.

Bummed for Sondre Oddvoll Boe not being able to show better what he could do in the fp. But chalk it up to his gaining some experience. He lost at least 10 to 12 points after popping at least two jumping passes. He has a lovely style and great potential. I also very much enjoy Sihyeong Lee's skating. And Japan's Shimada to me seems a better skater presentation-wise than Tomono.

Petrov didnt even medal ... ohh, God.

 

[Art&Sport]

Petrov didnt even medal ... ohh, God.

I made a correction to that as you should realize from the context of my comments that I didn't mean Petrov. I obviously meant Samarin who was given the bronze medal and he did not look too happy. I was trying to figure out whether it was that he felt he should have been ahead of Aliev since Aliev had an obvious near fall with a hand down. I guess Samarin doesn't realize that Aliev is miles ahead of him stylistically. Plus Samarin was not solid on all of his jumps technically, with a fallout on one jumping pass. The judges clearly didn't take off much.

 

[xox]

I thought nics pcs was a bit high for the freeskate? Roman struggled at nationals and now here. Find his skating better than nics but quite slow?

 

[Art&Sport]

Nic was great at Canadian Nationals, but he unfortunately had the 'oops' here on too many jumping passes. I think the PCS Nic got in the fp in Tapei show that the judges like his skating (he does have some rep from winning silver last year). With the PCS all over the place for everyone and generally wrong, I can't complain about Nic's PCS scores here, which kept him from placing behind 3rd Canadian skater Orzel. Skaters have to learn from their less than good performances, and chalk it up to getting experience under their belt, and finding out what they are made of.

I think as I said previously, that Roman is vulnerable technically. He needs to improve his tech consistency in competition. Plus he needs to take more command of his skating talent in general and gain increased strength and solidity. Roman's skating is smooth and flowy, not really that slow. He needs to mature and find music and choreo to help him stand out a bit more. Plus, he needs to develop tech difficulty and consistency. Roman landed a quad at Canadian Nationals but then made errors on other elements.

 

[silverfoxes]

In general I agree with you that both Samarin and Petrov have less potential for growth than a lot of the skaters who competed in Tapei. But note that Petrov is already a senior competitor for a few years now. Yes, ITA that Petrov looks more like a solid journeyman who is maxed out his potential. As well, Samarin does not appear to have range or growth potential. However, judging by former Russian jumping bean oldsters, these two may hang around and hang around forever like Menshov and Voronov. :sarcasm:

Samarin and Petrov had absolutely no business receiving the PCS scores they received and they were over-scored on tech as well. I'm sure they are hard workers, and they are both good jumpers, and Petrov is known to be fairly consistent. However, Petrov is not known to have quads, and he's certainly no Jason Brown in terms of unique stylistic qualities, so what's with such high scores? It's politics pure and simple. It looks like the judges were trying to aim to put the Russians 1,2,3 on the podium, but couldn't manage because Vincent knocked their socks off and foiled their plans.

In the sp, it should have been Jun Hwan Cha in first, Aliev in second, and Zhou in third. In the fp, Jun Hwan Cha should have won bronze at least. So what that Cha had a fall in the fp. It looks like the judges used that to keep his scores down as much as they could to keep at least two Russians on the podium. Meanwhile, Samarin and Petrov were not completely solid on all of their jump landings. There is absolutely nothing special about the skating of either Samarin or Petrov. I will give Petrov credit for solidity and for trying hard. He has improved his style slightly, but he's not unique at all -- he's an average skater.

Samarin's fp was slightly better than his sp stylistically, but again, even though Samarin tries hard I really see no long term promise in him stylistically or artistically. Plus he was wobbly and fell out of a landing and was awkward on others. The PCS he received is dumbfounding and highly questionable. It's as if the judges need training in how to accurately assess what constitutes performance quality! Jun Hwan Cha took to the ice and you could see the bravura possibilities written all over him. Cha is a special skater, and I think it's an absolute disgrace that he was purposely kept off the podium.

Samarin came out for the medal ceremony looking like he was pissed that he came in third. He should have felt lucky he was even on the podium at all! Aliev did not perform great, but Aliev clearly has much better performance qualities than Samarin and Petrov. But honestly Cha should have more realistically been in second overall with Aliev in third and Samarin and Petrov only 5th and 6th in the fp, and maybe 4th and 5th overall. It must be some kind of pecking order attitude and the lack of Korea having as much political clout as to why Cha did not get on the podium ahead of the Russians.

Why did Krasnozhon lose so many points? Did they go over his performance with a fine tooth comb? Kras lost 10 points on his tech score in the fp, with skating fairly well. Why was he dropped to 10th in the fp? Kras should more likely have been at least 7th overall, but 8th overall is not bad under the circumstances of the wacky judging. Still, the only reason Kras apparently lost 10 points on tech is so that the scoring and placements could be manipulated. I'm at least glad that Kras was happy with his overall results. He had to skate after Roman Sadovsky and Nic Nadeau tanked, and there wasn't a lot of energy in the rink. So good job for Kras coming through and keeping his wits about him.

Sorry to see what happened to Nic and Roman. Nic won silver last year, and he's certainly good enough among this group to have scored higher, if he hadn't popped at least 3 jumping passes. Nic must have lost at least 25 points or so. Nic is still rough around the edges, but he has better presentation skills than Samarin, and Nic is at least on a par with what Petrov is able to do stylistically. I would say that had Nic skated the way he could, he should have been at least 4th or 5th among this group, ahead of Aymoz and also ahead of Petrov and Samarin if politics did not have Petrov and Samarin being held up so much, especially on PCS. Roman's skating fluidity is sublime, but he apparently needs more time to mature and take better command of his competitive talent and his technique.

Good for Samohin skating better in the fp (he won Junior Worlds last year due to Nathan Chen being out injured). However, Samohin is NOT a great skater stylistically. He's stiff and he doesn't have great lines, interpretation or musical sensibilities. His PCS score is just WRONG. He won last year and he's not had a great season for one reason or another. I wonder why he came back to compete in juniors again with the season he's been having? Surely, he did not think it was a slam dunk he could win juniors again?!

First of all, what exactly is wrong with Menshov and Voronov having long careers? They both made major improvements to their skating late in their 20s (and they aren't the only ones to have done so). God forbid someone who enjoys skating keeps doing what they love and improving themselves. And even though I am no fan of Petrov or Samarin right now, it's just absurd to assume that teenage skaters have no hope of improving either. Even Kovtun has come a long way only very recently. I think it's funny that you have nothing negative to say about Krasnozhon who is hardly any different from those two, but since he represents America now, he gets treated much more favorably. And let's face it, Vincent Zhou and Nathan Chen are no great shakes artistically but I keep reading on here that "They will improve! Give them time!" Yet the Russian boys are just doomed? Ok...

And it's been mentioned multiple times on here that Daniel went to Junior Worlds because otherwise his season would have been over. Bychenko got the only spot for Isreal at Worlds. I am sure Daniel didn't assume he would win this again. He's a humble skater who had a very rough season and much of it was beyond his control (apparently he had boot issues even before his skates were lost at Euros). No, he doesn't have fantastic SS, transitions, etc. But he interprets music well and knows how to sell a program.

 

[Art&Sport]

First of all, what exactly is wrong with Menshov and Voronov having long careers? They both made major improvements to their skating late in their 20s (and they aren't the only ones to have done so). God forbid someone who enjoys skating keeps doing what they love and improving themselves. And even though I am no fan of Petrov or Samarin right now, it's just absurd to assume that teenage skaters have no hope of improving either. Even Kovtun has come a long way only very recently. I think it's funny that you have nothing negative to say about Krasnozhon who is hardly any different from those two, but since he represents America now, he gets treated much more favorably. And let's face it, Vincent Zhou and Nathan Chen are no great shakes artistically but I keep reading on here that "They will improve! Give them time!" Yet the Russian boys are just doomed? Ok...

And it's been mentioned multiple times on here that Daniel went to Junior Worlds because otherwise his season would have been over. Bychenko got the only spot for Isreal at Worlds. I am sure Daniel didn't assume he would win this again. He's a humble skater who had a very rough season and much of it was beyond his control (apparently he had boot issues even before his skates were lost at Euros). No, he doesn't have fantastic SS, transitions, etc. But he interprets music well and knows how to sell a program.

I didn't like Krasnozohn much until his recent improvements. I meant no disrespect to Voronov and Menshov who I actually admire for their resilience, love and dedication to the sport. It is very admirable that they stuck around so long and continued to try and improve their weaknesses. Clearly their talents, similar to Petrov's and Samarin's, are as jumpers. However, Menshov began to grow on me, and I found myself appreciating his hard work a great deal. I very much enjoyed Menshov's Pina rendition. It's almost as memorable as Savchenko/Szolkowy's! And that's saying something. I also have a soft spot for Menshov since he was ill-treated by Russia fed on a number of occasions.

Voronov was absolutely wonderful at Skate America earlier this season and he received a standing ovation after his fp. Perhaps Samarin and Petrov can use Voronov and Menshov as role models, or perhaps they do already. The smilie after the comment in my previous post stands for 'sarcasm' btw.

None of this takes away from the fact that despite their youth, neither Samarin nor Petrov have great range or potential stylistically. Definitely though since they are teenagers, there is still an outside chance for further growth with presentation. I do see them trying hard. But let's face it, their PCS were over-scored here. Neither has the natural, precocious artistic talent and fluidity of Jun Hwan Cha. Nor at the moment are either Samarin and Petrov the most effortless and brilliant quad jumpers in the world, despite their jumping ability.

Dmitri Aliev has a lot of room for continued artistic growth. He had a better competition at JGPF. Aliev was not at his best in Taipei.

Kras is not that pretty of a skater stylistically, but his ebullient personality is infectious, and he's coming more into his own in finding his style and expressing himself on the ice. And Kras definitely moves better over the ice than Samarin who is rather jerky and stiff. Petrov is finding his way too, but I don't detect much personality in Petrov's skating. He is trying with the Frank Sinatra, which is a type of vehicle that's been done before quite often since Johnny Weir made it popular with his 'My Way' exhibition. It's obviously easier to like skaters whose backgrounds and personalities I know more about. I'm familiar with Kras' coaches and his coaching environment and I've seen interviews with him and his coaches. Kras' reaction to making JGPF was priceless and would bring a smile to anyone's face.

I'm sure Samarin and Petrov are fine young men, but I do not see them going as far as Mikhail Kolyada in terms of podium success. We shall see. I feel for Kovtun. He's had a hard go of it since he came up from juniors in such an overly dramatic and politically contentious way. Kovtun is so awkward as a skater, so it's nice to see him find a way to express himself better on the ice. He seems to take it all so very hard. I guess that's the thing for many Russian skaters: its so important to win often in order to improve the livelihood for themselves and their families. Perhaps unlike U.S. skaters, Russian skaters do not have very many other options outside of skating to make a big success in life.

Thanks for pointing that out about Daniel. I am drawn to his personality, but he has a lot of room for improvement artistically. With his quad arsenal, and more consistency, he will get the points. But he was over-scored on PCS. Again, it is about the IJS/COP scoring system and the judges' apparent inability to score performance categories within reason.

The PCS scores are off-base most of the time for everyone. Sure there are people who complain about Nathan's PCS. What Nathan is focused on is concentrating on the jumps that ISU says are needed to win. At the same time, Nathan has good presentation skills, as well as a background in ballet. So, despite people trying to say Nathan is like Boyang, there is no comparison. Nathan has a much better feel for the music, he's more consistent technically, and he is overall better than Boyang stylistically, which can also be seen in Nathan's exhibitions. The reason people say that Nathan will grow, is that he's accomplished so much already at such a young age, and with his competitive mindset, drive and precocious talent, the sky is the limit.

Vincent has a different personality and a slightly different body type than Nathan, but both are cool and fierce competitors. What helped Vincent win in Taipei is that he has an excellent fp choreographed by Drew Meekins. The benefits of the right music, choreo and costuming should not be overlooked. And Vincent's jump technique is good and getting better. Plus, Vincent gained a great deal of confidence with his success at U.S. Nationals, which carried over to his Bavaria competition, and then carried over to Junior Worlds competition. He did not make the JGPF, but winning Junior Worlds is a great consolation prize. Vincent already has a better and more fluid movement style than Petrov and Samarin. What both Vincent and Nathan lack right now is maturity. Again, with how good they are now, and the opportunity for maturity increasing their range, the sky IS the limit. I don't see how anyone can say that Petrov and Samarin show similar artistic range and potential as Vincent and Nathan. Even Vincent's and Nathan's technical strengths are already surpassing those of Samarin and Petrov.

But I did not say "the Russian boys are doomed." I just think that from what I see of Samarin and Petrov at this point in their careers, it will take a lot more work for them to grow artistically, and it's more of an uphill battle. I see them hitting a wall in that respect, unless they find unexpected music and programs that suit their less than engaging on-ice personalities. OTOH, Mikhail Kolyada and Dmitri Aliev are brilliant technically and artistically, so I have not lumped Russian men into one bag. Kolyada placed 4th at Boston Worlds and arguably he should have been on the podium, if not for the judges over-gifting Boyang Jin.

Meanwhile, U.S. men are known for their all-around talent technically and artistically, except for in recent years the almighty quad being a stumbling block in terms of complete mastery and consistency (which does not mean U.S. men haven't been instrumental in helping pioneer the quad, e.g., Tim Goebel, Brandon Mroz, et al). So, now that a new generation of U.S. men are coming up with more quad firepower, all bets are off re the recent tendency by some fans to look down on U.S. men. At Boston Worlds (their home country) U.S. men were a bit dumped on even with skating better than some who placed ahead of them, and thus they lost a third spot unfairly. Don't begrudge the fact that podium fortunes are now seeming to look brighter for U.S. men, after a long drought.

 

[chuckm]

Samarin is 18 and this is his last year of Junior eligibility.
Junior events:
5 JGP seasons (9 events), 3 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze. 2016-17 JGPF, silver. 2013 JW (8th), 2015 JW (11th), 2016 JW (4th), 2017 JW (3rd).
Senior events: Challenger events: 2015 Warsaw, 1st; 2015 Mordovian 4th, 2014 Golden Spin 8th, 2014 Ice Challenge 2nd, 2016 Volvo Open-gold. 2017 Euros 8th.

Petrov turns 18 next month and has one more year of Junior eligibility.
Junior Events: 3 JGP seasons (6 events) 1 gold, 4 silver. 2014-15 JGPF, 3rd; 2013-14 JGPF 5th. 2014 JW 4th, 2015 JW 6th, 2017 JW 4th.
Senior Events: 2 GP seasons 2015-16, 6th and 6th; 2016-17, 6th and 7th. Challenger events: 2014 Warsaw, 1st; 2014 Volvo Open, 1st; 2014 Finlandia, 3rd; 2016 Nebelhorn 1st; Finlandia 6th; Golden Spin 4th. Senior B: 2016 Sportland 2nd; 2016 Sarajevo Open 2nd; 2015 Coupe de Nice 6th; 2014 Coupe de Nice 1st; 2013 Volvo Cup 2nd

Nathan Chen is 17 and has one more season of Junior eligibility
Junior events: 6 JGP events over 4 seasons 2012 (1), 2013 (2), 2014 (1), 2015 (2): 5 gold, 1 silver. 2013-14 JGPF 3rd; 2015-16 JGPF 1st. JW 2014 3rd, JW 2015 1st
Senior events: one GP season 2016-17 2nd, 4th. 2016-17 GPF 2nd. 2017 4CC Championship, 1st.
2016 Finlandia Challenger, 1st.

Vincent Zhou is 16 and has two more seasons of Junior eligibility.
Junior events: 4 JGP events, 3 silver, 1 4th place. 2015-16 JGPF - 4th. 2016 JW 5th, 2017 JW, 1st.
Senior event: 2017 Bavarian Open, 1st.

Both Nathan and Vincent have lost competition time due to injuries. After winning the 2012 US Junior Championship, Nathan began to have severe pain due to the growth-related Osgood-Schlatter syndrome, which affects the bone endings. He did only one JGP event in the fall of 2012. In 2013, because of his physical problems, Nathan lost the 2013 Junior Championship to Vincent Zhou.

But right after that win, Vincent suffered a severe injury which required surgery, and which kept him off the ice until the summer of 2015. He made his JGP debut in the fall of 2015.

Nathan won back his US Junior title in 2014 and competed at JW 2014, placing 3rd. He suffered another injury and he competed in only one JGP event in 2014-15. He competed at 2015 US Senior Nationals and was 8th; he went on to finish 4th at 2015 JW and went back to the JGP for the 2015-16 season, where he won the JGPF. (Vincent returned to make his JGP debut that same year, won two silver medals and was 4th at that same JGPF).

Nathan was 3rd at 2016 US Nationals and was slated to go to both JW and Worlds, but he sustained a hip injury during the US Nationals gala, had to have surgery, and returned in early summer to prepare for his GP debut. It is incredible that he learned and practiced all those hard quads in such a short time and had them ready for the start of the season.

Vincent, meanwhile, was working hard on learning more quads and correcting his UR problem with the 4S. That paid off with his 2017 JW Championship.



It is obvious that both Samarin and Petrov have had far more experience at both Junior and Senior levels than either Chen or Zhou. Given that, they should be better than the Americans---but they are not.

 

[Mrs. P]

Vincent did an amazing feat in the FS and he deserves all the credit for that. But I actually most connected with the performances of the Russian men.

I think some men are just late bloomers and they should not be penalized for that. Not everyone can find their mojo/style at at 16-17. Samarin, still has things to work on, but I think he has improved greatly in the last year. I think his team did a good job forming programs that HE clearly enjoys performing -- why try to make him into some classical skater? His programs and performances were quite memorable to me.

I think Petrov is a more introverted skater and I get why people don't connect to his programs, but I think he has some lovely performance qualities. I think it's great that he went for the quad and I hope we'll see more success. I was a bit skeptical about the Frank Sinatra FS at first, but I think it's good that he gets to work on his performance ability. And I think he did exhibit some nice charm to the program.

And Dima really had a soulful performance. I was surprised at how much he drew me in from the start. I hope he keeps working on it, cause I think he's on the right track.

Who knows where these Russian guys will end up with seniors, but I can appreciate the solid job they did at Jr. Worlds.

 

[tsuyoboogie]

In general I agree with you that both Samarin and Petrov have less potential for growth than a lot of the skaters who competed in Tapei. But note that Petrov is already a senior competitor for a few years now. Yes, ITA that Petrov looks more like a solid journeyman who is maxed out his potential. As well, Samarin does not appear to have range or growth potential. However, judging by former Russian jumping bean oldsters, these two may hang around and hang around forever like Menshov and Voronov. :sarcasm:

Samarin and Petrov had absolutely no business receiving the PCS scores they received and they were over-scored on tech as well. I'm sure they are hard workers, and they are both good jumpers, and Petrov is known to be fairly consistent. However, Petrov is not known to have quads, and he's certainly no Jason Brown in terms of unique stylistic qualities, so what's with such high scores? It's politics pure and simple. It looks like the judges were trying to aim to put the Russians 1,2,3 on the podium, but couldn't manage because Vincent knocked their socks off and foiled their plans.

In the sp, it should have been Jun Hwan Cha in first, Aliev in second, and Zhou in third. In the fp, Jun Hwan Cha should have won bronze at least. So what that Cha had a fall in the fp. It looks like the judges used that to keep his scores down as much as they could to keep at least two Russians on the podium. Meanwhile, Samarin and Petrov were not completely solid on all of their jump landings. There is absolutely nothing special about the skating of either Samarin or Petrov. I will give Petrov credit for solidity and for trying hard. He has improved his style slightly, but he's not unique at all -- he's an average skater.

Samarin's fp was slightly better than his sp stylistically, but again, even though Samarin tries hard I really see no long term promise in him stylistically or artistically. Plus he was wobbly and fell out of a landing and was awkward on others. The PCS he received is dumbfounding and highly questionable. It's as if the judges need training in how to accurately assess what constitutes performance quality! Jun Hwan Cha took to the ice and you could see the bravura possibilities written all over him. Cha is a special skater, and I think it's an absolute disgrace that he was purposely kept off the podium.

Samarin came out for the medal ceremony looking like he was pissed that he came in third. He should have felt lucky he was even on the podium at all! Aliev did not perform great, but Aliev clearly has much better performance qualities than Samarin and Petrov. But honestly Cha should have more realistically been in second overall with Aliev in third and Samarin and Petrov only 5th and 6th in the fp, and maybe 4th and 5th overall. It must be some kind of pecking order attitude and the lack of Korea having as much political clout as to why Cha did not get on the podium ahead of the Russians.

Why did Krasnozhon lose so many points? Did they go over his performance with a fine tooth comb? Kras lost 10 points on his tech score in the fp, with skating fairly well. Why was he dropped to 10th in the fp? Kras should more likely have been at least 7th overall, but 8th overall is not bad under the circumstances of the wacky judging. Still, the only reason Kras apparently lost 10 points on tech is so that the scoring and placements could be manipulated. I'm at least glad that Kras was happy with his overall results. He had to skate after Roman Sadovsky and Nic Nadeau tanked, and there wasn't a lot of energy in the rink. So good job for Kras coming through and keeping his wits about him.

Sorry to see what happened to Nic and Roman. Nic won silver last year, and he's certainly good enough among this group to have scored higher, if he hadn't popped at least 3 jumping passes. Nic must have lost at least 25 points or so. Nic is still rough around the edges, but he has better presentation skills than Samarin, and Nic is at least on a par with what Petrov is able to do stylistically. I would say that had Nic skated the way he could, he should have been at least 4th or 5th among this group, ahead of Aymoz and also ahead of Petrov and Samarin if politics did not have Petrov and Samarin being held up so much, especially on PCS. Roman's skating fluidity is sublime, but he apparently needs more time to mature and take better command of his competitive talent and his technique.

Good for Samohin skating better in the fp (he won Junior Worlds last year due to Nathan Chen being out injured). However, Samohin is NOT a great skater stylistically. He's stiff and he doesn't have great lines, interpretation or musical sensibilities. His PCS score is just WRONG. He won last year and he's not had a great season for one reason or another. I wonder why he came back to compete in juniors again with the season he's been having? Surely, he did not think it was a slam dunk he could win juniors again?!

Of the lower ranked skaters, what is up with Tomono pulling up by so much in the fp? Tomono did not skate that great to receive those kinds of marks! That one is a real head-scratcher. Again, it smacks of behind-the-scenes politics.

Bummed for Sondre Oddvoll Boe not being able to show better what he could do in the fp. But chalk it up to his gaining some experience. He lost at least 10 to 12 points after popping at least two jumping passes. He has a lovely style and great potential. I also very much enjoy Sihyeong Lee's skating. And Japan's Shimada to me seems a better skater presentation-wise than Tomono.

Kazuki moved up simply because a few of the skaters who placed above him in the SP planned/delivered FS with less BV (Newberry, Shimada, Rizzo) or unfortunately, underperformed in the FS (Nadeau and Sadovsky ). Kazuki's 4S (-4GOE), 3A-3T (-1.43GOE, 3A was nice) and 3A (-1.00GOE) were all sloppy but still executed. He also managed to combo his 3Lz in the bonus half when he was unable to combo his 2nd 3A. Whether you agree with his GOEs or not, his TES (74.94) was 7th highest in the FS. As usual, his PCS (68.22) was IMO, not overly generous.
No need to call out politics, when the results are justifiable. Also, my feeling is, if JSF was going to push for one of their boys in this competition, it would've been Koshiro (and that obviously didn't happen).

 

[Art&Sport]

^^ Thanks for explanation. I still don't think Tomono is that great or should have moved up quite as precipitously, but I see how some of the movement happened based on other performances.


Nice for you that you happen to enjoy Samarin and Petrov @Mrs.P. To each their own skater enjoyment. BTW, who exactly is trying to make Samarin "into some classical skater." Just because I personally am not drawn to his skating and I don't feel he has great talent expressively and musically, does not mean I think he needs to skate to classical music. The problem is not his music. He is just not as naturally talented with his movement quality nor does he have natural grace and musicality.

As I mentioned earlier, I think Samarin looked better and more comfortable (less jerky) in his fp, than in the sp. He has worked on trying to improve his movement quality, and he surely skates with fierce conviction, even though for me personally, I am not that moved or convinced. I will give him credit that he tries hard and he has great competitive sensibilities and good jumping ability. Still Samarin's overall talent is not as great as that of Aliev and Kolyada.

Petrov is still young but already he seems like a journeyman who has skills but is not as talented or remarkable as his peers. I agree that Petrov did a fine job with what he's able to do and he challenged himself and motivated himself in a smart way with the help of his coaching team. True also that Petrov is more introverted and thus does not always connect as well with the audience. But yes, there was some charm to his Sinatra program, but again nothing very remarkable. OTOH, I have seen Petrov before skating a fun exhibition in a past season that I enjoyed. So yes, like Samarin, Petrov tries hard. In many ways, Petrov is like some lower level U.S. men who try very hard and challenge themselves but unlike Petrov, (due to talented U.S. depth) these U.S. guys will be journeyman mostly at the national level or senior Bs and never make it to Worlds. Kudos to Petrov for getting help from Mishin to try and get a quad into his arsenal.

Just as I detected during the medal ceremony, Samarin was disappointed with the bronze (instead of being appreciative that he at least made the podium in his last year of Junior eligibility). He was quoted as saying he was not happy with the result. I suppose he must have felt that Aliev did not skate as cleanly while he landed more difficult tech. Unfortunately for Samarin, Aliev's overall talent is being given credit (perhaps more credit than deserved, but quite clearly Aliev is a more well-rounded skater than Samarin). Of course, no one was able to touch what Zhou laid down in the fp.

Samarin went on to say, "I will have to start from scratch in seniors."