Zagitova edges out Medvedeva for Oly Gold

[chopinskate]

OK, great! Zagitova is neither the better technician, nor the better artist, according to the judges. She can just do a 3Lz-3Lo. That's it. Can we just stop with this "controversy" now?

 

[joanne129]

Med doesnt deserve those high GOE in the free skate. Her edge in doing lutz is definitely wrong and i dont know why she can receive +1.6 GOE for it. Zag is the clear winner

 

[Fresca]

I do ballet too. However, Alina isn't doing ballet, it just isn't possible on ice, as a lot of balletic movements relies on friction, centering and springing from a solid floor. That's when you can rely on your core to hold positions or execute moves. Skating is so different, your feet are constantly stroking, unless you are in a stable gliding motion, eg charlotte or ina bauer, it's really difficult to hold positions due to necessary bending of your limbs, especially the knees. You can't get a proper core body support for extensions like you would if you push off from a solid floor.

No skating is not ballet and ballet should not be the standard for movement in skating. However, if you are skating to ballet music with ballet choreography whilst wearing a ballet costume, I expect balletic movement and it is possible in skating to do many things on the ice that mimic ballet.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you can't do balletic movement on ice because it "relies on friction, centering and springing from a solid floor" and that's when "you can rely on your core to hold positions and execute moves". Whether in skating or ballet, movement on the vertical or horizontal plane comes from a push off the foot from either the floor or the ice into a plie so the plie is what enables you to seamlessly transition from one movement to the next. Whether in skating or ballet, you rely on your core to hold your positions and execute the movement.

I also don't understand your point about extensions and holding positions. Extensions don't require a push off the floor nor is ballet all about extensions or holding positions.

And if we are talking about upper body movement, there shouldn't be much different between what you can do on the ice and what you can do in ballet. See Nathan Chen. Amazing port de bras. Too bad he doesn't have the plie.

I actually find her arms balletic in their movements, even though they are more crooked than the typical oval port de bras. Danii's mother was a prima ballerina and she helped to choreograph Alina's arm movements to match her legs/body movements, unfortunately, a lot of expressions are compressed into a few minutes.

There is a frantic quality due to the number of movement, turns, steps, transitions she had to do to reach Level 4s, with arms to match, which isn't typical for ballet, but when she had time, eg. her Ina Bauer, spins, even tanos/rippons, jump landings, the shape of her arms held up.

Forgive the tendency to crook, understand why she isn't allowed to hold positions for long, slow down her program by reducing the number of steps, turns, etc., and the semblance of the ballet is there.

It isn't just that her arms are more crooked than the shape of a typical oval port de bras. It's that she has no softness in her elbows at all. Either they are too crooked or they are not rounded and stick straight. The same with her wrists. Either they are limp and angled breaking the line of her arm or too stiff. It isn't just the shape but in the overall movement of her arms. She moves her arms as though they are made out of blocks - shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist, wrist to fingers. There's no fluidity of motion from the back and shoulders moving through the arms to the tips of her fingers.

Taking into account the overall impression, given as you said the frantic quality of her movements, as a ballet dancer, I don't know how you can say that you find her balletic. Allegro or adagio, the goal of any ballet dancer worth his or her ballet shoes is to make the movement look effortless.

I can see the semblance or intention of ballet in her choreography. I just can't say that she succeeded.

 

[chopinskate]

post

This is a fantastic post.

(Though with Nathan Chen, I think the way he places his neck isn't pleasing, either. Great port-de-bras, but weird upper body line due to his neck.)

 

[qwertyskates]

No skating is not ballet and ballet should not be the standard for movement in skating. However, if you are skating to ballet music with ballet choreography whilst wearing a ballet costume, I expect balletic movement and it is possible in skating to do many things on the ice that mimic ballet.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you can't do balletic movement on ice because it "relies on friction, centering and springing from a solid floor" and that's when "you can rely on your core to hold positions and execute moves". Whether in skating or ballet, movement on the vertical or horizontal plane comes from a push off the foot from either the floor or the ice into a plie so the plie is what enables you to seamlessly transition from one movement to the next. Whether in skating or ballet, you rely on your core to hold your positions and execute the movement.

I also don't understand your point about extensions and holding positions. Extensions don't require a push off the floor nor is ballet all about extensions or holding positions.

And if we are talking about upper body movement, there shouldn't be much different between what you can do on the ice and what you can do in ballet. See Nathan Chen. Amazing port de bras. Too bad he doesn't have the plie.



It isn't just that her arms are more crooked than the shape of a typical oval port de bras. It's that she has no softness in her elbows at all. Either they are too crooked or they are not rounded and stick straight. The same with her wrists. Either they are limp and angled breaking the line of her arm or too stiff. It isn't just the shape but in the overall movement of her arms. She moves her arms as though they are made out of blocks - shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist, wrist to fingers. There's no fluidity of motion from the back and shoulders moving through the arms to the tips of her fingers.

Taking into account the overall impression, given as you said the frantic quality of her movements, as a ballet dancer, I don't know how you can say that you find her balletic. Allegro or adagio, the goal of any ballet dancer worth his or her ballet shoes is to make the movement look effortless.

I can see the semblance or intention of ballet in her choreography. I just can't say that she succeeded.

You are basically agreeing with me as to why skating and ballet are different in the bolded part. :sarcasm:

It is important to differentiate "intent of choreography", a lot of difficult details from "mistakes", as this is unfair to Alina and the efforts put into her arms and hands choreography, her artistry.

Except for the jumps, where you use the ice surface/floor to propel yourself into the air, ballet and skating depend on completely different body muscle use and dynamics. Ballet movements, assemble, pas de chat, jete, are a lot of little jumps pushed off the floor. A skater doesn't constantly make little leaps, but is propelling on alternate legs on the ice. A fouette/pirouette series uses completely muscle groups (constant pushing off the floor) from spins (one centres oneself and uses shear torso movement to spin) even though to an audience they both look like similar crazy body turns.

How often does one plie off the ice in a typical ice skating program? Only Alina in the first movement of DQ did a 2nd position plie and her plie is perfectly straight. When she is gliding and thus in a steady, balanced situation, her charlotte/forward penche is also perfect, as is her ina bauer/4th position cambre, her spin positions, torso, legs, arms are the best of the field. This is where you can see if Alina's lines are good.

Stroking is NOT doing plie.

Google "cambre ballet" - you will see many many different wrist angles, some in one same line as the port de bras, some crooked and angled like Alina's. There is no ONE rule for arm movements.

This Swan, Viktoria Tereshkina, eg., has a completely crooked wrist, something the beginner's ballet teacher absolutely forbids as an error:

https://www.bailarinas.eu/sopa-de-letras-y-pasos-de-ballet-ii-parte/

Look up the famous Russian wrist. The Russian method places the wrists and fingers as the finishing touch, the last of the arm movement.

http://www.russianimperialballetschool.org/vaganova-method.html

There are no absolute cut-and-dried rules when it comes to performance even if they teach you the standard in the studio.

Whenever she is able to perform and hold a ballet position, Alina did them perfectly.

With constant stroking, turning, gliding, I don't blame her limbs for being angled because of the nature of balancing or stroking on ice.

And extensions DO depend on the core, you extend from your core in ballet. Surely you know, eg normal people raise their arm but in ballet you lift your arm, you use a whole muscle group emanating from your core. This is why you need to constantly tighten your torso, butt in, shoulders down and back, spine straight, when you train in ballet. Without the stability and strength of your core, you simply cannot do proper extensions or most ballet moves. This is basic stuff.

In skating, it's all hips, thighs, legs, ankles action and shifting centre of gravity and the torso adjusting to the lower body movements to achieve stability. Apples and oranges.

Actually, sorry Nathan fans, but Nathan is the least balletic among Jason, Shoma, Adam or Misha. Jason, for me, is the perfect ballet dancer among the men. Nathan did do ONE plie, that is at the part of FS during the Rites of Spring sequence, the so-called "chicken legs" move also spotted on Gracie's Firebird. One doesn't plie when one figure skates.

Danii's mother was a Bolshoi ballerina. Perhaps different schools prefer to teach different styles, Italian, French, Russian, English ballet all have their own style.

I do see many of the moves she choreographed for Alina's arms in both SP and FS in some ballets but they usually do not cluster together as they do in Alina's programs. And of course the SP is also modern and not classical, with more room for different choreography.

IMO, the crookedness of Alina's limbs is a result of being in constant changing movements and positions, just as stroking would demand bent knees, though Danii's mother is also teaching her a different set of arm positions and movements popular in the style of ballet she practised. It just struck me - there is also a flamenco arm position influence in Alina's DQ. I see flores and filigranas! .:think:

 

[bramweld]

How? even before she had the 3lz3lo in the second half... not adding the 3lo to the first 3lz was just an hesitation because of the pressure.

Or so we think

 

[charlotte14]

I think Medvedeva has superior SS than Zagitova. But the gap between their presentation and SS is kinda small so the judges go with the younger girls with harder jumps. I am okay with Zagi winning cause I like the girl as well but still... if Medvedeva won, I would be ok as well.

 

[zytolda]

what TAT said at the end of Medvedeva LP? i cannot access the russian website with the clips

 

[bramweld]

I think Medvedeva has superior SS than Zagitova. But the gap between their presentation and SS is kinda small so the judges go with the younger girls with harder jumps. I am okay with Zagi winning cause I like the girl as well but still... if Medvedeva won, I would be ok as well.

I agree with most things except this. Medvedeva a good artist, but she's no Oksana Baiul, or Carolina Kostner, yet. She's pretty young, let's see how she develops.

 

[Warwick360]

I noticed that! Zag had a 3.70 BV point lead in her FS, and yet the final difference was of 2.44 points in TES. Translation: Med beat Zag on GOEs. Of course, Medvedeva beat her on PCS, too.

All this with Med's flawed toe jumps, her flutz not being called, her 2A not deserving more than a 0 GOE on a good day, muscling, waiting for Zeus to thunder down from Olympia between her x-2/3T combos...

And the sad thing is that the casual viewers don't see this. It's like trying to argue with a bunch of ignorants when seeing all the comment on FB over how Evgenia was unfairly scored or how Alina was all technical, as if Evgenia ever was a shining beacon of artistry herself. :disapp:

 

[yume]

waiting for Zeus to thunder down from Olympia between her x-2/3T combos...

as if Evgenia ever was a shining beacon of artistry herself. :disapp:

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

You're ignoring one thing: TES. While Evgenia should have had higher PCS margin than Alina, her GOEs should have been WAY lower. She got higher TES than Alina did overall, and that should alone tell you how unfair judging was. Watching the elements side by side, there is no comparison whatsoever. That, in combination with her base value, would have put her into first; Alina deserved the olympic gold and was the better skater under current rules. Their PCS and TES differences should have been bigger, but Alina would still be the winner. Evgenia got the same GOEs for FC spin that was slower and travelled. Her lutz got better GOE even though it was on the wrong edge with under the rules warrant a - GOE. Her jumps were smaller and muscled. Yes Evgenia's program is more engaging and she performed it with all the emotion she had, but come on you need to consider both sides. If not, they should have just given the gold to Carolina Kostner.

Do you mean Zhenya got higher GOEs? Because I'm almost positive Alina had a higher TES. You make lots of great points but I don't agree that Alina is the better skater under this system. I think Alina has benefited from Zhenya having the success that she did before her. Alina's PCS in juniors were already higher than Zhenya's were at the same point in her trajectory. I think that is just plain wrong, criminally so to be honest. People have complained for years that Zhenya's scores are too high, but Alina has been primed and groomed for this very moment IMO.

Some people only think Zhenya is "artistic" in comparison to Alina and don't think she is even that special, PCS-wise. But I beg to differ. Zhenya is an exceptionally lovely and musical skater and I have always loved her style and interpretation on the ice from the first time I saw her at the 2014 Junior Grand Prix Final and fell in love. There was just something special about that girl.

 

[charlotte14]

I agree with most things except this. Medvedeva a good artist, but she's no Oksana Baiul, or Carolina Kostner, yet. She's pretty young, let's see how she develops.

Compare to Zagitova, Medvedeva is >>
Zagitova is slow and her edge is not smooth as Medvedeva.

 

[chopinskate]

Alina's PCS in juniors were already higher than Zhenya's were at the same point in her trajectory.

So... just like Med's PCS was higher than Mao Asada's was at the same point in her trajectory? And she beat her at worlds? Was Med's win invalid there because she benefited from Mao having the success that she did before her? Was Med primed and groomed for that very moment?

 

[Fresca]

This is a fantastic post.

(Though with Nathan Chen, I think the way he places his neck isn't pleasing, either. Great port-de-bras, but weird upper body line due to his neck.)

I don't recall any egregious use of his neck. Perhaps you are referring to his head/neck placement when he uses epaulement as in the croise derriere position in his Le Corsaire SP?

Whole post

It looks to me like you are giving Alina credit for "potential" or efforts, giving her some allowances based on the difficulty of her skating program rather than judging her by what she actually performed. You are saying she couldn't help that her arm movements were not that nice to look at because of her skating choreography but it doesn't change the fact that her arms weren't that nice to look at.

 

[chopinskate]

I don't recall any egregious use of his neck. Perhaps you are referring to his head/neck placement when he uses epaulement as in the croise derriere position in his Le Corsaire SP?

I don't remember exactly (and I am just a follower of ballet), but he seems hunched up at times. Not too pleasing to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBiar80RW0 Not the worst, but it looks weird.

Edit: yes, I am. (Around 2:08). Also, he's kind of weak in acknowledging the music there, but that's just part of FS I guess (getting drained of energy)

(It looks fine when he's moving, and he doesn't stick it out or anything, but IDK, just... looks hunch-y. His port-de-bras are phenomenal, so maybe I just think he doesn't have a "swan-like" neck)

Not a fan of the neck in opening poses here, either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Suvmb-Mhs

I think he needs to raise his chin up to make it look better (for me). (Also, maybe I should start saying head/neck placement like you do, that's what I usually mean with Nathan's neck.)

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

So I just did some quick research to back up my findings. Alina has always been judged more favorably than Zhenya, and it is incredibly unfair IMO. I just don't find them at the same level PCS-wise, artistically, whatever you want to call it. This advantage resulting in a disproportionate separation between the two of them is what gave Zagitova the OGM.

Let's compare: and btw, I am only concerned about PCS here. I am posting TES and TSS to not put things out of context.

Zhenya's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2015 Skate America. In the long program she scored 66.93 TES and 67.16 PCS. She had a 1.00 deduction for falling on a double axel and her TSS was 135.09.
The pinnacle of Zhenya's first senior season was 2016 Worlds in Boston. In the long program she scored 77.76 TES and 72.34 PCS. Her TSS was 150.10. So during her first season, her PCS went up 5.18 This seems perfectly reasonable.

Alina's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2017 Cup of China. In the long program she scored 76.09 TES and 68.35 PCS. Her TSS was 144.44.
We just saw the main event (or as it turned out to be, the nightmare) for what Alina's senior season was building towards--the 2018 Olympics in Gangneung, South Korea. In the long program she scored 81.62 TES and 75.03 PCS for a grand total TSS of 156.65. So over the course of Zagitova's first senior season (which btw isn't even over yet and very well may soar even higher @ Worlds) her PCS has increased 6.68. So not only is this a bigger overall increase than what Medvedeva received her first season, she already started with a 1.19 higher PCS score. To put this in a real-world simulation, Alina's Olympic long program was judged higher in PCS by a whopping 2.69 than Zhenya's revelatory skate to win her first World title. UNFAIR. And I don't think it's comparable to the comparison of Zhenya's WR scores in 2016 to what Yuna Kim achieved in 2010. This is only a 3 year difference with Zhenya and Alina and not the same or as many changes have taken place with the scoring or guidelines IIRC.

And I know that scores from different competitions are not supposed to be directly compared (I think that's what they say anyway??) but it gives you an extremely helpful guideline. You can clearly see that Zagitova has always been judged MUCH more favorably than Medvedeva despite IMO not being as gifted in many of the components. Therefore I feel the accurate separation between the two is not being properly applied. Hopefully people will find this as interesting as I do. Seeing the PCS scores Zagitova was receiving last season (and them being higher than what Zhenya got her last junior season) was incredibly illuminating as to how this whole thing could shake down.

 

[chopinskate]

So I just did some quick research to back up my findings. Alina has always been judged more favorably than Zhenya, and it is incredibly unfair IMO. I just don't find them at the same level PCS-wise, artistically, whatever you want to call it. This advantage resulting in a disproportionate separation between the two of them is what gave Zagitova the OGM.

Let's compare: and btw, I am only concerned about PCS here. I am posting TES and TSS to not put things out of context.

Zhenya's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2015 Skate America. In the long program she scored 66.93 TES and 67.16 PCS. She had a 1.00 deduction for falling on a double axel and her TSS was 135.09
The pinnacle of Zhenya's first senior season was 2016 Worlds in Boston. In the long program she scored 77.76 TES and 72.34 PCS. Her TSS was 150.10. So during her first season, her PCS went up 5.18 This seems perfectly reasonable.

Alina's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2017 Cup of China. In the long program she scored 76.09 TES and 68.35 PCS. Her TSS was 144.44.
We just saw the main event (or as I call it, the nightmare) for what Alina's senior season was building towards--the 2018 Olympics in Gangneung, South Korea. In the long program she scored 81.62 TES and 75.03 PCS for a grand total TSS of 156.65. So over the course of Zagitova's first senior season (which btw isn't even over yet and very well may go up even higher @ Worlds) her PCS went up 6.68/. So not only is this a bigger overall increase than what Medvedeva received her first season, she already started with a 1.19 higher PCS score.

And I know that scores from different competitions are not supposed to be directly compared (I think that's what they say anyway??) but it gives you an extremely helpful guideline. You can clearly see that Zagitova has always been judged MUCH more favorably than Medvedeva despite IMO not being as gifted in many of the components. Therefore I feel the accurate separation between the two is not being properly applied. Hopefully people will find this as interesting as I do. Seeing the PCS scores Zagitova was receiving last season (and them being higher than what Zhenya got her last junior season) was incredibly illuminating as to how this whole thing could shake down.

Kim Yuna's first GP as senior (SC): PCS was 55.2
Kim Yuna's first worlds as Senior: PCS was 61.64

Where does she fall in your opinion?

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

This isn't about Kim Yuna. Like I added into my post, the scoring system was too different when she competed. I'd only use her scores if I wanted to compare her head to head with Mao Asada who competed directly against her with the same scoring system and guidelines.

But if you don't think I have a point at all, that is certainly your prerogative.

 

[Shayuki]

So I just did some quick research to back up my findings. Alina has always been judged more favorably than Zhenya, and it is incredibly unfair IMO. I just don't find them at the same level PCS-wise, artistically, whatever you want to call it. This advantage resulting in a disproportionate separation between the two of them is what gave Zagitova the OGM.

Let's compare: and btw, I am only concerned about PCS here. I am posting TES and TSS to not put things out of context.

Zhenya's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2015 Skate America. In the long program she scored 66.93 TES and 67.16 PCS. She had a 1.00 deduction for falling on a double axel and her TSS was 135.09
The pinnacle of Zhenya's first senior season was 2016 Worlds in Boston. In the long program she scored 77.76 TES and 72.34 PCS. Her TSS was 150.10. So during her first season, her PCS went up 5.18 This seems perfectly reasonable.

Alina's first ever senior Grand Prix event was 2017 Cup of China. In the long program she scored 76.09 TES and 68.35 PCS. Her TSS was 144.44.
We just saw the main event (or as I call it, the nightmare) for what Alina's senior season was building towards--the 2018 Olympics in Gangneung, South Korea. In the long program she scored 81.62 TES and 75.03 PCS for a grand total TSS of 156.65. So over the course of Zagitova's first senior season (which btw isn't even over yet and very well may go up even higher @ Worlds) her PCS went up 6.68/. So not only is this a bigger overall increase than what Medvedeva received her first season, she already started with a 1.19 higher PCS score.

And I know that scores from different competitions are not supposed to be directly compared (I think that's what they say anyway??) but it gives you an extremely helpful guideline. You can clearly see that Zagitova has always been judged MUCH more favorably than Medvedeva despite IMO not being as gifted in many of the components. Therefore I feel the accurate separation between the two is not being properly applied. Hopefully people will find this as interesting as I do. Seeing the PCS scores Zagitova was receiving last season (and them being higher than what Zhenya got her last junior season) was incredibly illuminating as to how this whole thing could shake down.

I really think that this judge-favoring argument is an impossible one to make in the case you are talking about this free skate. The first reason is simple:

Alina doesn't flutz while Evgenia did. ISU GOE guideline quote: "Wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -2 to -3 " So Evgenia's Lutz got 6.00 BV and +1.60 GOE. If it had been 4.20 BV with -1.60 GOE instead, she would have lost 5 whole points already. There were some other problems with her GOEs as well. The 2A-2T-2T for example shouldn't get the GOE it did. "Loss of flow/direction/rhytm between jumps" calls for -1 to -2 reduction in GOE which likely would leave it around 0 or -1.

So while you can argue that Alina's PCS was way too high, Medvedeva's TES also was way too high.


Another point - During the Olympic season the scores just inflate in general. Medvedeva's debut season and Zagitova's debut season aren't comparable for this very reason. Olympic seasons function differently.


See, to me Medvedeva should have had quite a bit more of a PCS gap in comparison to Zagitova, but Zagitova also should have had quite a bit more of a TES gap in comparison to Medvedeva, leaving the end results correct. Unless you suggest Zagitova should only get like 68 PCS, which I just cannot agree with.