Would Lipinski have won Nagano under CoP? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Would Lipinski have won Nagano under CoP?

italia said:
Standing after the Short program

Tara Lipinski-52.50
Michelle Kwan-51.80

It was close but both skaters had deductions for not holding spirals for 3 seconds or minimun of 2 revs on spin positions...as well as no real attempt to level up spins...but this one before the system soooo...

I'm just doing the longs and then i will but the protocols on send files or one of those sites
Click to expand...

No deduction for Tara's flutz? What about the PCS scores? I would think Michelle would have beaten Tara on that alone.
 
I don't think Kwan fans "hate" CoP.

But when CoP first came in, in the 2003-2004 season GP, Kwan was already cutting back on some of her elements (the 3L) and was no longer doing 3/3s. Just recently we found out that it was because her hip injury had begun to cause her problems. She didn't do the 2003 or 2004 GP, and was faced with doing a CoP program for 2005 Worlds without a previous outing.

But if CoP had been introduced early in her career, say back in 1996/1997, Michelle likely would have had a much easier time adjusting to it. Interestingly, Tara might have been the one who had the adjustment problem. In drilling her 3L/3L fifty or more times a day, she had already injured her hip and was feeling pain that entire Olympic season. The contortions required for upgrading spins and spirals might have made her condition worse or might have caused injury to her ankles or knees..
 
Results for the Free

Tara Lipinski-100.58
Michelle Kwan-95.99

Overall Scores

Tara Lipinski-153.08
Michelle Kwan-147.79

Michelle had too many jumps spins anbd even missed footwork sequences so its not super comparable...

As for taras flutz in the sp, because the overall quality of the jump was good it balances out to only a -1...ill post to program scores and tech scores in a minute
 
Tara did have very fast and difficult footwork and her triple triples would have deffinetly racked up majot point as they do today. Her spiral sequences would have needed a llot of improvment, but if that system was in place then, (and with little Tara's work ethic) they would have been better. If you take the exact performnces and jude them now, 9 years later, under this new sysytem... new, i belive tara would still have won, perhpas by an even greater margin. rember the triple triple at the end?
 
Details:

Tara SP-http://www.sendmefile.com/00495395

Michelle SP-http://www.sendmefile.com/00495397

SP Scores-http://www.sendmefile.com/00495398

Tara FS-http://www.sendmefile.com/00495399

Michelle FS-http://www.sendmefile.com/00495400

FS Scores-http://www.sendmefile.com/00495401

Files are pdfs...srry buts its the only way the program exports files
 
Oh, and if theres any other events you would like me to do, I would be happy to lol:) i love doing this
 
Put in historical perspective, iit shows how the sport is progressing. These were two of the finist performances of the time -- maybe of all time. Yet they are 40 points below what the ladies are putting out there now.
 
Iwas just thinking, because only i scored it, it really has only one opinion, i have an idea, ill post the elements that were excecuted, and people could watch the videos and give the elements GOE, you just really give it out on the quality, it would be fun... and the first 9 people to post ill put into the comp and post the final scores out....heres just some basic info...in the sp the lfying spin and layback must be held for atleast 8 revs or else there is a deduction...combo spin if 5 positions are not held for at least 2 revs, there is a deduction, the deduction can be anything, but can not be higher than 0..in the fs the same rules apply, for the PCS u give a mark from 0.25 to 10.00 with .25 increments and for skating skills, transitions, program excecution, choreography and interpretation...if i hve alteast 4 people say they will do it, ill post the elements...hehehe this is gonna be pretty cool
 
italia said:
Iwas just thinking, because only i scored it, it really has only one opinion, i have an idea, ill post the elements that were excecuted, and people could watch the videos and give the elements GOE, you just really give it out on the quality, it would be fun... and the first 9 people to post ill put into the comp and post the final scores out....heres just some basic info...in the sp the lfying spin and layback must be held for atleast 8 revs or else there is a deduction...combo spin if 5 positions are not held for at least 2 revs, there is a deduction, the deduction can be anything, but can not be higher than 0..in the fs the same rules apply, for the PCS u give a mark from 0.25 to 10.00 with .25 increments and for skating skills, transitions, program excecution, choreography and interpretation...if i hve alteast 4 people say they will do it, ill post the elements...hehehe this is gonna be pretty cool
Click to expand...

You know what, never mind, im searching for videos and I'm going to post some videos from 2002 olys ladies and men freeskate and ill hve 9 people score from those...if u still are interested u can post your scores, and just get elements from my details....all the spins end in sp# so it should be hard to figure out...footwork ends in st# and jumps end in letters
 
That sounds cool! I wish I could judge it, but I'm not good with that stuff.

So, Tara wins with both systems? Good for Lipinski!:rock:
 
It seems to come down to the PCSs, whether Michelle's more mature presentation can overtake Tara's 3-3s.

As much as I like Michelle, in this event I thought Tara deserved high second marks as well. A different style of skating for sure, but Tara did her thing with pizzaz and gusto.
 
Mathman said:
As much as I like Michelle, in this event I thought Tara deserved high second marks as well. A different style of skating for sure, but Tara did her thing with pizzaz and gusto.
Click to expand...

Not as high as Michelle's, IMO. Pizzaz and gusto go just so far.

I'm starting to think MK should have pumped her fists and jumped up and down al lot ... maybe that would have gotten her a higher mark.
 
Or followed Tarasova's advice: "Why didn't Frank Caroll just give the judges a bottle of vodka? What did we care which American girl won?"
 
gio said:
Maybe I'm too subjective, because I'm a Michelle fan, but Michelle Kwan was superior in 1998 to Tara in all aspect of FS. I think that with CoP Michelle would have won in 1998. Michelle jumps quality were for +1 or +2 GOE.
Click to expand...

Michelle has never done a jump that is +2 GOE quality; she doesn't get enough height or ice coverage to qualify for that. For her 98' Olympics program in particular only one jump even deserved a +1 GOE...her second Triple Lutz.

DORISPULASKI said:
Today, Lipinski's 3t 1/2lp 3s sequence would get hammered with the 0.8 sequence 'penalty'.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't; she only did 6 jumping passes so those jumps would be counted as her 6th and 7th jumping passes separately.

I assume she would have just kept her jump layout from Worlds '97 for the Olympics (where she did a 2Axle/3Sal combination and then solo 3Toe instead of the 3Toe/3Sal combination) if the new judging systm were in place back then.

Beyond that, a 3Toe, 1/2 loop, 3 Sal is not a sequence. That is a combination; the rules simply need to be updated.

Also, just looking at what they did, Lipinski would won under CoP. Michelle could have won with a clean program that included her 3Toe/3Toe combination.

~Z
 
Could someone break down the scores for Michelle and Tara for me under the CoP. I'm interested to see how Tara's jumps would score. They also lacked height, and there were problems with her axel technique. I would be interested to see how they all break down.
 
Zuranthium said:
Michelle has never done a jump that is +2 GOE quality; she doesn't get enough height or ice coverage to qualify for that. For her 98' Olympics program in particular only one jump even deserved a +1 GOE...her second Triple Lutz.
Click to expand...

IMO, in Nagano, Michelle had still better jump quality than Tara's.
Also her PCs would have been much much higher than Tara's.
But is better that I stop. I'm sorry, I can't be objective. For me the winner of the 1998 Olympics is Michelle Kwan. She deserved that gold. Regardless of the judging system, IMO she was better than Tara. Much much better!!!
 
KWAN:

3Lutz/2Toe - 7.3 points
3Loop/2 Toe sequence - 5 points
3Flip - 5.5 points
2Axle - 3.3 points
(bonus) 3Loop - 5.5 points
(bonus) 3Sal - 4.95 points
(bonus) 3Lutz - 6.6 points
(bonus) 3Toe - 4.4 points would not be counted...8th jumping pass

TOTAL BASE SCORE - 38.15 points

LIPINSKI:

2Axle - 3.3 points
3Flip - 5.5 points
3Lutz/2Toe - 7.3 points
(bonus)3Loop/3Loop - 11 points
(bonus)3Lutz - 6.6 points
(bonus)3Toe/3Sal - 9.35 points

TOTAL BASE SCORE - 43.05 points

Lipinski is ahead by 4.9 points.

~Z
 
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