Would Lipinski have won Nagano under CoP?

[megsy]

This was actually debated in a newspaper article - http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3684978.html

Personally, I think Tara's Olympic LP was brilliant and her medal well deserved. I do like Kwan, but Tara was simply better on that day.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The operative phrase is

ON THAT DAY, and imo, ONLY ON THAT DAY.

 

[gkelly]

OK, here's a real poser.

Irina Slutskaya was one of the few skaters who was doing enough of the features that now count toward higher levels in spins and step sequences before the new system came in (and actually doing a spiral sequence as opposed to isolated spirals in her long program in 1998). Plus she had a triple-triple in her 98 Olympic LP.

So if you were to score Slutskaya's performances from the 1998, 2002, and 2006 Olympics all by 2006 rules, which Irina do you think would get the highest score?

 

[Mathman]

That is such a good question, and for me, it summarizes everything I don't like about the CoP.

I don't remember Irina's 1998 skate, but in both 2002 and 2006 the spirited competitor that we all know and love just didn't show up. No matter how the points came out, these were just atrocious performances.

 

[Jaana]

The operative phrase is

ON THAT DAY, and imo, ONLY ON THAT DAY.

Not quite. Before 1998 Olympics freeskate Tara had been a few times better than Kwan:

- US Nationals 1997
- Champion series final (1997 Febr.)
- Worlds 1997.

In Nagano both skaters were one-time World champions, and Tara was the reigning one.

Your sentence, Joe, can be used in connection with Sarah Hughes, but definetely not with Tara.

 

[Fossi]

I think Tara only won the SP at Nationals and Worlds in '97, right? Not sure, but I thought she was a bit of a SP skater. Plus, at those given times the Kwanster made mistakes. And please, please, please......let's give Sarah her due credit. She also beat both Michelle and Irina more than once. She beat them both at Skate Canada prior to the Olympics and also she skated better than Irina and possibly Kwan at GPF that same year, only the judges held Irina up. So enough of the nonsense of Sarah only being better that night. Why give Lipinski credit and not Sarah??????

 

[slutskayafan21]

Yeah Sarah did win Skate Canada over Kwan and Slutskaya which was impressive(even there though she lost the long program handily to Slutskaya and won due to Slutskaya's short program finish). However she still did not ever do better then 3rd at a GP final or Worlds before her Olympic Gold. She also never won a U.S title, and only won 1 silver at U.S Nationals in fact, and her medal at U.S Nationals before the Olympics was a bronze. She actually lost both her meetings with Cohen at U.S Nationals IIRC, her 1 silver was the year Cohen did not compete. Tara Lipinski had won 2 GP finals, 1 U.S Nationals, 2nd at U.S Nationals behind Kwan before the Olympics(even with fall in short she rallied for 2nd place over 3rd place Bobek who skated very well), and of course a Worlds, before her Olympic Gold. Tara won the long program at 4 of those 5 major events she won, the only 1 she did not was the 97 Worlds were she finished 2nd behind Kwan in the long program but won due to Kwan's short program placing(mistake). I was not a big fan of Tara's skating but I do agree with those who believe there is a real difference between the two careers in advance of their Olympic Golds. Tara was a proven winner, while not the favorite for that Olympic Gold, but still a proven winner in the past of major titles.

Sarah's Olympic Gold was not her only fine moment in the sport but it was her only truly shining moment IMHO, especialy compared to Tara's 2 year run which included alot more of them.

 

[Jaana]

I think Tara only won the SP at Nationals and Worlds in '97, right?

As Slutskayafan posts above, Tara won the gold medal in 1997 US Nationals and also 1997 Worlds. It does not matter who won short programme or who the freeskate, the end result is the only that matters.

Tara was the reigning World champion at Nagano Olympics. Sarah did not beat Kwan in US Nationals or Worlds. It is good for Sarah that she won Skate Canada, but that competition is very early in the season, and apparently she did not do as well in the GP final. Sarah won a bronze in 2001 Worlds, so she did not come out of nowhere as she won in the 2002 Olympics, but it still was a surprise win, in my opinion.

Not sure, but I thought she was a bit of a SP skater. Plus, at those given times the Kwanster made mistakes.

Hmm, isn´t in most cases the reason for winning a medal that others make one mistake or more in some part of the competition? It is not that often that e.g. all medalists skate perfectly in a competition, LOL. I would say that Kwan has won gold medals e.g. in World competitions while other skaters made mistakes. And in US Nationals as well.

In 1998 US Nationals Tara had a mistake in short programme. I don´t know about her freeskate, but she got a silver medal, didn´t she?

 

[chuckm]

About the 2001-2002 GPF: Even if Sarah had won the final FS, because of the 6.0 system, she could not have won the GPF.

Irina won the SP and the first FS and was given the win in the 2nd FS despite the fact she landed just 4 triples and had a very messy skate. Kwan was 3rd in the SP, 2nd in the first FS and 2nd in the second FS, although she landed 6 clean triples. Sarah was 4th in the SP and 3rd in the first FS. She landed 7 triples but was slow, and one of her 3/3s was clearly underrotated. If Kwan had won the 2nd FS, she would have won the GPF, and Sarah would have been 3rd even if she placed 2nd ahead of Irina in the second FS. Because Irina had won the first two phases of the competition, she couldn't have finished worse than 2nd.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I remember that 2002 GP final well. Like chuckm said Hughes could have done no better then bronze even with a win in the 2nd free skate(I dont believe she deserved to win free skating either). The thing I most remember about that competition though was Slutskaya turned in a lackluster 2nd free skate with only 3(4 if you count a triple lutz with a three turn)clean triples and clearly should have been placed 3rd behind both Kwan and Hughes in that 2nd free skate, thus giving Kwan the gold overall. There was a most bizarre judging split for that final free skate, 4 1st place votes for Slutskaya, and 3 3rd place votes. It was a pretty big controversy after the event.

 

[antmanb]

That is such a good question, and for me, it summarizes everything I don't like about the CoP.

I don't remember Irina's 1998 skate, but in both 2002 and 2006 the spirited competitor that we all know and love just didn't show up. No matter how the points came out, these were just atrocious performances.

Irina's 1998 Olympic LP was, i thnk one of her best at the Olympics. I can't remember for sure but i think she even managed the triple lutz in there which she had been struggling with all season. It funny to think back to the pre 2000 days when Irin'a nemesis jump was the lutz!

Ant

 

[gkelly]

If Kwan had won the 2nd FS, she would have won the GPF

Because of the two-freeskate formula being used (thank goodness that's gone), the final freeskate was only worth 50% of the total, not 66.6% as when there are only two phases to an event. Therefore, as slutskayafan points out, Kwan would have needed not only to win the final but also to have Hughes (or someone else) place ahead of Slutskaya in the final for Kwan to win the gold.

Now, if that competition had been judged under COP, how would it have come out?

 

[attyfan]

As Slutskayafan posts above, Tara won the gold medal in 1997 US Nationals and also 1997 Worlds. It does not matter who won short programme or who the freeskate, the end result is the only that matters.
...

I don't think that the end result always is the only thing that matters -- especially when speculating on what results might have been in a different competition.. For example, there was much debate over MK's being in first after the SLC ladies SP. Whether this "robbed" Irina of the OGM depends on whether the FS would have played out the same way (if Irina had been first after the SP and Sarah in 4th, then Sarah's winning the FS wouldn't be enough to give her the gold; if Irina was second in the FS, she would have gotten it); I think it very significant that Kwan has a history of skating really well when she is behind after the SP -- because that indicates that the FS easily could have been different if the SP results had been different.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Because of the two-freeskate formula being used (thank goodness that's gone), the final freeskate was only worth 50% of the total, not 66.6% as when there are only two phases to an event. Therefore, as slutskayafan points out, Kwan would have needed not only to win the final but also to have Hughes (or someone else) place ahead of Slutskaya in the final for Kwan to win the gold.

You are right on that, I do believe though, even as an Irina fan obviously, that Slutskaya should have been only 3rd in that final free skate behind both Kwan and Hughes however, as you said what would have been neccessary for Kwan to win overall. It is what should have occured though IMO, Slutskaya clearly did a distant 3rd place free skate that night and there was some kind of bloc vote I suspect, especialy by the ordinals.

 

[heyang]

She also never won a U.S title, and only won 1 silver at U.S Nationals in fact, and her medal at U.S Nationals before the Olympics was a bronze. She actually lost both her meetings with Cohen at U.S Nationals IIRC, her 1 silver was the year Cohen did not compete.

Sarah's Olympic Gold was not her only fine moment in the sport but it was her only truly shining moment IMHO, especialy compared to Tara's 2 year run which included alot more of them.

Sarah's 1st Silver at Nationals was in 2001 when Sasha did not compete. In 2003, Hughes got her 2nd Silver when she finished ahead of Cohen at Nationals. I recall reports of Sasha being irked and she came back at World's to finish ahead of Sarah that year.

 

[Zuranthium]

In 2003, Hughes got her 2nd Silver when she finished ahead of Cohen at Nationals. I recall reports of Sasha being irked.

Sasha had only herself to be irked at. She fell on a Triple Toeloop, two-footed two other Triple jumps, and had an iffy landing on her Double Axle. Sarah did a clean 6-Triple performance.

~Z