Who was better at 13, Naomi Nari Nam or Caroline Zhang?

[Mathman]

Naomi Nari Nam won the silver medal in seniors at U.S. Nationals in 1999. Injuries cut her single's career short and she never regained the edge that she had at 13.

Because of new rules about age eligibility, it is hard to guess how Caroline might have done if she had competed as a senior last year.

No one knows the future, but in a snapshot at thirteen, who do you think had/has the more promising talent?

 

[evenstar]

Caroline Zhang- more jumps and better consistency. Their spins, spirals and presentation were about equal.

 

[Tinymavy15]

What i found so special about Naomi was that the munite the music started she put on a show and had this big throught the whole program. She could sell a performance like the most seasoned entertainer, and she looked as if she was having a ball doing it. Caroline has a little better spirals and such, and is very mature in her style, very reserved and soft like a little ballerina. I have to say i got a bigger kick out of Naomi. :chorus:

 

[diamondqueen]

Caroline is absolutely a better skater overall and most important is she is consistent in her jumps.

diamond

 

[heyang]

I think it's apples to oranges.

Caroline has an unusual matureness in her lines, etc. I haven't noted many young skaters who could skate so well to You Raise Me Up at her age. A lot of the youngsters opt for lively exuberant music.

I think Naomi infuses her performances with exuberant energy - even now when she is doing pairs.

 

[doubleaxel]

Personally, I prefer Mirai Nagasu to both of them. =P

I find Caroline to be more of a "blah" (or simply dry) skater, when it comes to artistry and presentation (though, of course, everyone has different views of artistry). She's not that consistent, either, what about that face-on-ice lutz fall at Nationals? Her very questionable jumping technique might as very well land her in the hospital sometime soon... Hig-kicks, anyone? Naomi, on the other hand, I recall her being a vivid skater and I think she was quite exquisite for her time. I also like her jumps better than those of Carolines, and her expression was much more brighter and entertaining.

 

[mars]

I think that Caroline has better spins and flexibility.

But in terms of presentation, i think Naomi, was more polish and sophisticated than Caroline. Also Naomi has better speed and ice coverage.

And I too prefer Mirai to the both of them, she sort of remind me of Yuna Kim, except with better extension and flexibility.

 

[muzabee]

I like Caroline very much. She is lylical and expressive. She reminds me of Yu-na Kim. It would be interesting to compare Caroline with Yu-na.

This is a 2005 jr.world ex. of Yu-na. Take a look!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QuzUDyhqWw

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for joining us, Muzabee. Welcome to the forum!

 

[temperboy28]

Naomi Nari Nam was so overhyped it was a joke. She came 2nd at U.S Nationals in one of the worst U.S Nationals fields in history, considering where all the skaters were as skaters at the time. Other then Kwan the whole field was a major blah so it wasnt that big a deal coming 2nd in that field, somebody had to. Her jump technique was wretched, she was never going to be able to master the hard jumps. Her presentation skills were nice but nothing amazing. She wasnt that powerful or commanding a presence out there. Her speed and footwork were nothing to marvel at. Her spins were her best asset by far.

I read American articles at the time saying since Kwan screwed up at Worlds, Naomi could have won the title had she been allowed to go. When pigs fly, even Kwan would have needed close to her best performances to beat Butyrskaya the way she skated that Worlds. Despite the fact Hughes was beaten by Naomi at Nationals, and Hughes came 7th at Worlds, a top 10 at Worlds would have been a miracle for Naomi that year. That was also in one of the weakest Worlds womens fields in recent history too, as the 3-way battle for the bronze between Soldatova, Malinina, and Gusmeroli will attest to.

Oh yeah to answer the threads question-Caroline Zhang easily, slam dunk, no contest.

 

[dancindiva03]

I think it is too hard to say. Caroline has essentially grown up with the new system, while NNN as a single skater only skated under the old system. So how they skate is/was influenced on the grading/scoring system at the time, and you can't really directly compare them. If you are talking about pure technique, I'd say NNN was better with the jumps, even though Caroline generally fully rotates hers now they still look akward, especially the take-offs. In spinning Caroline would have the edge. Spirals, footwork, I can't judge because like I said, they competed under different systems which altered the construction of their footwork and spiral sequences. As for the performance aspect, I like NNN better. Caroline just doesn't have enough oompf to her skating to really wow me, and IMHO being really flexible isn't that impressive. NNN had better energy on the ice, related more to her music rather than skating through it.

 

[temperboy28]

If you are talking about pure technique, I'd say NNN was better with the jumps, even though Caroline generally fully rotates hers now they still look akward, especially the take-offs.

Ok we all have our opinions but NNN better "jump technique"!??! Is that some kind of a joke. Has NNN ever done a truly clean triple lutz or triple flip in her life, let alone at 13. Has she ever done more then 3 truly clean triples in a free program in her whole career. Zhang today blows NNN at any age away on jump technique. NNN had some of the ugliest and worst jump technique I have ever seen from a skater who was a top 5 junior in the world, or a medalist at U.S senior Nationals.

NNN jump technique = something around Lucinda Ruh jump technique

 

[dancindiva03]

Ok we all have our opinions but NNN better "jump technique"!??! Is that some kind of a joke. Has NNN ever done a truly clean triple lutz or triple flip in her life, let alone at 13. Has she ever done more then 3 truly clean triples in a free program in her whole career. Zhang today blows NNN at any age away on jump technique. NNN had some of the ugliest and worst jump technique I have ever seen from a skater who was a top 5 junior in the world, or a medalist at U.S senior Nationals.

NNN jump technique = something around Lucinda Ruh jump technique

I think Caroline has THE UGLIEST jump technique EVER. NNN may not have had the best jumps, but they were not as wacky looking as Caroline's. Yes, Caroline is landing the jumps in competition but her technique is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. And that comes straight from the mouths of a number of coaches at my rink, not just from me.

 

[krenseby]

I think Caroline has THE UGLIEST jump technique EVER. NNN may not have had the best jumps, but they were not as wacky looking as Caroline's. Yes, Caroline is landing the jumps in competition but her technique is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. And that comes straight from the mouths of a number of coaches at my rink, not just from me.

Well I think Naomi had a lot more height on her jumps... I already mentioned that Caroline's jumps looks puny... So yeah, I agree that NNN beats Caroline in terms of jump execution...

 

[chuckm]

I read American articles at the time saying since Kwan screwed up at Worlds, Naomi could have won the title had she been allowed to go. When pigs fly, even Kwan would have needed close to her best performances to beat Butyrskaya the way she skated that Worlds. Despite the fact Hughes was beaten by Naomi at Nationals, and Hughes came 7th at Worlds, a top 10 at Worlds would have been a miracle for Naomi that year. That was also in one of the weakest Worlds womens fields in recent history too, as the 3-way battle for the bronze between Soldatova, Malinina, and Gusmeroli will attest to.

Kwan was ill with the flu at Worlds 99, so it wasn't so much that she screwed up as she wasn't in the best physical condition. NNN couldn't have gone to Worlds anyway, since she was too young, and as she hadn't been sent to Jr Worlds 99 (Sarah was, and finished 2nd) she couldn't qualify via the JW loophole.

BTW, does anyone know why Camie Doyle and Susan Ng went to JW 99, and not NNN? Was there a preliminary competition that NNN didn't qualify for?

Anyway, when it comes to the question of who is better, Zhang or NNN, I'd have to say Zhang. NNN had that one competition, Nationals 99, but she never achieved anything close to that in later competitions (she was 8th at '00 Nationals). OTOH, Zhang has proven herself all season, shining in two summer competitions, then winning two JGP events, the JGPF and Junior World, and finishing a close second to Nagasu at Nationals as a Junior.

 

[Spun Silver]

I think Caroline has THE UGLIEST jump technique EVER. NNN may not have had the best jumps, but they were not as wacky looking as Caroline's. Yes, Caroline is landing the jumps in competition but her technique is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. And that comes straight from the mouths of a number of coaches at my rink, not just from me.

Um, Dancin' Diva - Caroline won, and won, and won, so get over it.

 

[Sylvia]

BTW, does anyone know why Camie Doyle and Susan Ng went to JW 99, and not NNN? Was there a preliminary competition that NNN didn't qualify for?

Because 1999 Junior Worlds took place near the end of the 1998 calendar year (ISU cleared up the confusion by moving JW 2000 to March 2000 and matching the JW calendar and competition years). Nam, who had placed 4th in junior at 1998 U.S. Nationals, was a few days too young (July 6, 1985 birthdate) to have been invited to USFSA's JW selection competition that took place in the fall of 1998.

From Skateweb's 1999 and 2000 U.S. Nationals reports:
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/index.shtml

Naomi Nari Nam: she had incredibly good luck at this competition [1999 Nationals], when Bobek pulled out and each of Nikodinov, Corwin, and McConn tanked in at least one phase of the competition. After seeing her land only two triples at Pacific Coasts, I thought the best she could possibly hope for was the bottom half of the top 10. I am worried that she's getting too much hype too soon.... it seems that the toe loop and flip are still her only consistent triples, as she was still struggling with two-footing the loop and salchow. One thing I am impressed with, though, is the high quality of her double axel. When I first saw Naomi Nari at Pacific Coasts two years ago, her axel was tiny and cheated, now it's a power jump for her.

And after Nam fell to 8th place finish at 2000 Nationals (she was attempting triple (f)lutz at this Nationals):

I hope people aren't going to write off Naomi Nari Nam just yet. She is probably not any more inconsistent on her jumps now than she was last year, and she is skating with far more speed and power. She really knocked my socks off in that respect. Give her a couple more years.

 

[layman]

Well...I am going to say that when it comes to the lutz jump both NNN and Zhang have the exact SAME technique of kicking up the free-leg in the entrance. Curiously, Nam never kicked her free-leg up (like Zhang) in the entrance to the flip and the flip became Nam's best jump when she was competing as a single's skater. I would say that overall Nam, Zhang and Sasha Cohen all have very similar technique (as if each was taught at some point by the same person).

The differences between Nam and Zhang are still obvious today as Nam skates with the kind of speed and power as a pairs skater that she had at age 13 as a singles skater. Zhang does not have this kind of speed and power. Also, looking at their jumps, even though the technique is similar, Nam has a lot more spring in her jumps (Dick Button used to rave about her ballon, a french term that I think means "air"). You can still see the spring in Nam's triple toe loop and double axel (the jumps she's performing now as a pair skater).

 

[iloveaxel]

Of course Caroline Zhang. She has been so consistent so far and that really bodes well for her future.

NNN was just a one-time hit. She did one clean program in her entire career. No comparison.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

This is an interesting question because I've only seen both skate once... In sheer impact, I'd give the nod to NNN because when she finished that Nationals long program I was like whoa and more than a little bit speechless. (rare for me...) and while watching Caroline, I was more like "look at the little ice skater girl... she's such a cutie! but that pearl spin is making my back hurt." In terms of jumps, its more difficult because of the elevated nature of what it takes to win in the modern world.

But this thread underscores an issue I've been harping about for sometime... its impossible to say who will have success and who will not when the skaters in question are 13 years old... Injury, puberity, lack of progression & lost of interest / parental support are the enemies of the young skater. Look at Bebe. When she burst onto the scene I thought she'd give Kwan a run for her money... she still hasn't even qualified for Worlds.

Give these girls time to develop and then say who is better.