Does Kimmie need the triple Axel?

[morninglight]

I agree. Patience is important. Nobody would have expected at the end of the Olympic year that Miki would become the World Champ this year. She may do a quad in competitions some day as well. Why not Kimmie's 3A?

 

[Mathman]

I think once the chestnut (combo jump) is executed, everything will fall into place for the whole package. How high that whole package will be scored will be shown in the judges scores. It seems it is in accordance with a WOW jump(s).

Others without a chestnut to show will be judged without the same level as those who do.

Actually, I am OK with that. Figure skating at base is performance art. A wow! performance deserves to beat a performance that is merely competant. (JMO.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, I am OK with that. Figure skating at base is performance art. A wow! performance deserves to beat a performance that is merely competant. (JMO.)

What would do if YuNa skated to a rousing ovation without a 3A, and Mao just got a nice applause with a 3A? Is it the audience input into the final score?
Actually, I think it is somewhat.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just think Showman Lambiel against stonefaced Joubert.

 

[Mathman]

What would do if YuNa skated to a rousing ovation without a 3A, and Mao just got a nice applause with a 3A? Is it the audience input into the final score?

Actually, I think it is somewhat.

I think so, too, and I would go with the rousing ovation from Yu-na. This is a little unfair, because it means that audience favorites would come in with a built-in advantage. (But hey, it worked for Michelle! )

About Joubert, nothing lit up old stone-face as much as hitting three quads at Trophee Eric Bombard. At Worlds, one quad, meh.

 

[satorare]

Actually YN Kim never had a standing ovation in international competitions, including "that" day in Tokyo. Not sure about domestic ones though, I guess there wouldn't be enough audiences.

 

[SeaniBu]

Actually, I am OK with that. Figure skating at base is performance art. A wow! performance deserves to beat a performance that is merely competant. (JMO.)

:agree: Can choreography even exist with out "Acting / Preforming?" The aspect of a skater being a performer, will still be prevalent in the marks of choreography? Is there a need for interpretation to be a mark?
Well... if there is a way that simply doing movements before and in between, and call that "choreography":disapp:... I guess I am thinking that it would be pointless to a skater if they were doing this sport to just go get points or something. The aspects of creatively showing your artistic nature, seems to be in the heart of a skater. They all express and emote their art through athletics - IMO - that if the "performer necessity" was not "marked in points" the skaters I believe would still "give that art" to the programme. And could be marked in choreography?
Almost if it was just out of the nature of Figure Skating.

:scratch:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I
About Joubert, nothing lit up old stone-face as much as hitting three quads at Trophee Eric Bombard. At Worlds, one quad, meh.

I'm looking forward to a revitalized Joubert this season with facial expressions like smiling, determination, and smugness. Anything to make him human. His jumps are good. Anything else?

Joe

 

[Germanice]

She does, at least as long she doesn't have much else to offer.

Anke

 

[z4mboni]

I agree, that's very amusing. I think the news media are just repeating what the ISU is telling them.
:

Actually, this is not what I meant.

I meant that the media report what the skaters and coaches have said.

For example, just a few days ago there was a TV program with Aki Sawada, Akiki Kitamura and one girl whose name I forgot. They were just accepted into Kansai Daigaku, the alma mater of Nobunari Oda and Daisuke Takahashi.

The girls and their coach, Yamato Tamura, were talking about CoP. They said it was very difficult to adjust to the new system. Under the old system, they could rest between the jumps and they didn't need to be as flexible. Now they are training everyday to improve the elements which cause them problems and feel that they gradually improve.
Nobunari Oda, just after introducing CoP, said: "I love the new system. Now it's not only just about the jumps.".

Japanese media, in general, seem to love the CoP. There are hour of shows with former skaters and show hosts discussing the performances, the elements, and how to improve them. When a skaters is doing something new or unusual, there's a name of the new move flashing on the screen and the commentators explain how difficult it is, why, and what bonuses it can give to a skater. A great idea, IMHO - makes the general public more knowledgeable and lets them know why some moves score higher than others.
(Not that I can understand that, but I read a lot of translations... )

Under the CoP I don't think we will be seeing any more Peggy Fleming layback spins (1.2 points), or Dorothy Hamill scratch spins (1.2 points), or Nicole Bobek spirals (1.8 points), or Brian Boitano spread eagles (0 points), or Shizuka Arakawa Ina Bauers (0 points) or Sasha Cohen Russian split jumps (0 points).
(...)

Personally I feel that we'll rather see more of them. I try to follow as many novice/junior competitions as it is possible and I feel that those kids can /really/ work with CoP. And they /love/ to stand out _and_ to do tricks performed by their favourite skaters. Ina Bauers, Zhang-Biellmans, one handed Biellmans, split jumps - there's much more of those than I've seen in the pre-CoP days.

Getting back to the topic of "whole package" and how the concept might change... I think that whole package /is/ whole package. A complete skater will be a complete skater no matter what the system - although it might certainly take time to adjust to the new one.

I'd like to illustrate my point with an example of a skater who I feel really shows how to work CoP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTyXCSXdvAo - Nanoha Sato, a junior skater. Not a triple to her name. And yet she placed 7th out of 24 skaters, all of whom had triples. How? Superior spins including spins in different direction, gorgeous layback, great choreo and interpretation, a double jump with arms over head. Do those elements score high points under CoP? It might seem that the answer is not - it isn't written in the list of elements that spins in different direction = "+1". And yet she scored quite high thanks to her "wholeness of package", even though this package was tripleless. Higher GoEs and PCS worked to her benefit, and she really impressed Shizuka and Takeshi, who were the commentators there.

Going back to the topic of "simpler" elements disappearing; I don't think we have to worry aout that. Not only the novice skaters, but also the seniors are working on including them in their programs. Mao just included in her program a beautiful outside spreadeagle, tracing a full circle on ice, and her back arch now rivals Shizuka's and she takes ballet classes again. Oda invented a scary looking variation of the pancake spin and he learns to jump with arms in weird positions and he also takes ballet classes. Takahashi feels the need to improve his versatility and takes modern dance lessons classes. Lambiel did as well, IIRC.

Of course they are skaters who will try rather to work only on those elements that gather points. But wasn't it the case under the old system as well? When I rewatch the old performances there is a lot of outstanding skaters, but those were the /top/ skaters of their era. I think they would be just as wholesome no mather under what system they would skate. The lower level skaters were... well, maybe I won't go there after all.


To sum up. my point is that a good skater will be a good skater regardless of the system. I think that during the transition period we've been seeing a lot of instances of skaters working on well scoring elements first, because they are only human and cannot work on all things at once. But step by step the skaters are improving and learning how to work the CoP and make their programs unique at the same time.


Please forgive me if my post is a bit chaotic - I'm trying to type and study at the same time and it's not going well...

 

[Tinymavy15]

Personally I feel that we'll rather see more of them. I try to follow as many novice/junior competitions as it is possible and I feel that those kids can /really/ work with CoP. And they /love/ to stand out _and_ to do tricks performed by their favourite skaters. Ina Bauers, Zhang-Biellmans, one handed Biellmans, split jumps - there's much more of those than I've seen in the pre-CoP days.

:thumbsup:



.

Mao just included in her program a beautiful outside spreadeagle, tracing a full circle on ice, and her back arch now rivals Shizuka's and she takes ballet classes again. Oda invented a scary looking variation of the pancake spin and he learns to jump with arms in weird positions and he also takes ballet classes. Takahashi feels the need to improve his versatility and takes modern dance lessons classes. Lambiel did as well, IIRC.

Have so seen mao working on a new program? Is she training at Toyota Sports Center?

 

[Mathman]

That was a super post, Z4!

My only concern is that "complete package" will come more and more to mean: "Oda invented a scary looking variation of the pancake spin and he learns to jump with arms in weird positions and he also takes ballet classes."

I think the picture of Mao bent backwards is scary-looking, too.

I'm not complaining -- just noting that "complete package" seems to be heading in the direction of bizarre rather than beautiful.

 

[Zuranthium]

Wow, that was an epic post!

Japanese media, in general, seem to love the CoP. There are hour of shows with former skaters and show hosts discussing the performances, the elements, and how to improve them. When a skaters is doing something new or unusual, there's a name of the new move flashing on the screen and the commentators explain how difficult it is, why, and what bonuses it can give to a skater. A great idea, IMHO - makes the general public more knowledgeable and lets them know why some moves score higher than others.

The Japanese, and Korean, society really enjoys numbers. Americans are completely the opposite. They hate math; they hate having to think. Competitive figure skating under CoP will never again reach the same popularity in America for that sole reason, imo. Casual fans don't understand the numbers and they don't want to.

I love math, myself. I love playing around with numbers and I especially love when a game/competition is balanced. CoP balances the field far better and more accurately than 6.0 did.

~Z

 

[z4mboni]

Have so seen mao working on a new program? Is she training at Toyota Sports Center?

If I remember correctly, after her Chukyo University Gala she went to Lori Nichol to work on the new choreography. Mao said only that her new EX will be more "groovy" that her exhibition numbers so far, which could mean pretty much anything. She didn't say anything about her competetive programs, and don't I think she will do it soon - last year she was very secretive about them right until Campbells.
But I think that she will perform her new EX in shows during the summer.

My only concern is that "complete package" will come more and more to mean: "Oda invented a scary looking variation of the pancake spin (...)

Firstly, I'd like to clarify that the spin wasn't scary looking as far as aesthethics go, it was rather a case of things possibly going wrong that was scary for me.
I don't have a photo on my laptop, but imagine a person going into a very low sit spin with free leg slightly wrapped around the supporting leg and torso pressing against the knees like in a pancake position. Now the person extends arms upwards, intertwines fingers, and then twists the torso so that arms are parrarel to the ice and the face/torso is almost facing upwards. Then the spin accelerates. It looks nice, sort of like a mix of Lambiel spin and pancake spin, but I was very scared that he'll lose balance and crash his head against the ice surface or break his arms.

To get back to the original topic, I think that actually yes, in order to become a whole package one needs to work on those basic elements frist - take ballet classes, improve jumps, spins, try to find something that would make a skater stand out. They will not be a complete skater right away, but in a few years time they have a chance to become one.
And then there will be geniuses who'll bloom very quickly...

I think the picture of Mao bent backwards is scary-looking, too.

Is it more scary than Lucinda's Biellman, Shizuka's InaBauer or Sasha's arabesque? Personally, Mao starts to remind me of Katherine Healy - I love those balletic moves, including those requiring impressive flexibility. Impressive for a figure skater, anyway - for a ballet dancer those are just necessary basics.

I love math, myself. I love playing around with numbers and I especially love when a game/competition is balanced. CoP balances the field far better and more accurately than 6.0 did.

I agree. And I love math as well. I like the possibility of downloading the scoresheets and looking what elements were executed and how they were judged. I love playing with the numbers as well and I often try to choreograph a program for a particular skater and make it as CoP-friendly as it is possible for a given skater. I don't think that having to put certain elements in the choreography must be distracting when considering the beauty of the finished program - it is a challenge, but not one that cannot be overcame.

 

[Mathman]

Is it more scary than Lucinda's Biellman, Shizuka's InaBauer or Sasha's arabesque?

Now that you mention it, it's about the same on the scary scale as Shizuka's, LOL. It hurts my back to watch it.

I look forward to seeing Oda's variation of the pancake spin. I just hope it looks better than Johnny Weirs "jellyfish-with-dangling-tentacles version.

http://nymag.com/health/features/regimen060213_1_560.jpg

 

[slutskayafan21]

I like Kimmie but how can their even be a question she needs do be doing two triple-triples plus a triple axel in the free skate to better her chances at this point? After Worlds, that isnt even really a question, if she can still do a triple axel, then pushing herself to attempt two triple-triples and the triple axel in her free skate is a must. At Worlds this year she was a distant 4th in the short, about 3 points back of 3rd and 4th place, and 7 points back of 1st place, despite skating a clean short with a triple-triple, and that was only with Mao blowing her combo in her short.

She wont be the reigning World Champion any longer, just a World Champion from before who did not medal at last years Worlds, and is still quite young like alot of the other top ones. That wont help her scores in anyway either.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I dont know... Yu-Na Kim didn't need it to beat Mao at the Junior Worlds or GPF.

Mao did not skate a good free program in either event.

 

[morninglight]

I wonder how much Kimmie may be involved in her school work. It seemed that the other top ladies who were on the podium at the Worlds barely went to school during the past season as they train in foreign countries.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Kimmis is grauading in June..... but i never heard of her being a great student or anything.. I don't think she has college plans for anytime soon.

 

[flying camel]

Kimmie did say she plans to attend The Univ. of Delaware in the Fall.