FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't think it's a good argument from the perspective of fairness. I'm just saying it will change the nature of the sport. I think it's even different from allowing the 3A to be the axel in the SP. Yes, it was passed exclusively to benefit one skater, but the jump had been landed by at least four other senior women in competition. Personally, I'd feel better about it if the women are still landing it in two year; if not, it will really become a situation where the best skaters can only have a 1-2 year reign at the top before their bodies won't allow them to rotate quads.

But, how do we know it will benefit them. Did it help Mao Asada to win more competitions after her 3A was allowed?

 

[gkelly]

I don't think that's a valuable argument against it. After all, Mao Asada was the only one landing 3A and they changed the rules because of it, thankfully.

Yes, at the time the rule was passed Mao was the only one attempting it, which made a rule change that clearly advantaged one skater a bit surprising but also opened up the option to others if they could take advantage of it.

But it's not as if she was the only example of whether it was possible.

Midori Ito had proved that back in 1989. You also had Tonya Harding, Ludmila Nelidina, and Yukari Nakano (including just a year or two before the rule change) who had landed rotated or underrotated 3A one foot in ISU competition, and others such as Angela Derochie, Yoshie Onda, and Mai Asada who had attempted them with less success. ISU officials had probably also heard about Kimmie Meissner's effort at US Nationals and seen attempts by various others in public practices at ISU championships.

I think the programmes, and competitions as a whole, would be much more interesting if more things are allowed in first place.

Yes, and not only jumps. Let skaters who can do really amazing envelope-pushing non-jump skills get credit for them and use more of them if that's where their strengths lie.

Which would require making the free program freer and more flexible, allowing for different strategies for racking up points but also retaining some limits (time limits and total number of scoring elements under IJS) or requirements to encourage some degree of balance even if not everyone has to do the exact same number of each type of element.

But maybe the original concept of the short program with its required elements would no longer be relevant at all in that case. Replace it with something else that makes more sense in the current era.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Midori Ito had proved that back in 1989. You also had Tonya Harding, Ludmila Nelidina, and Yukari Nakano (including just a year or two before the rule change) who had landed rotated or underrotated 3A one foot in ISU competition, and others such as Angela Derochie, Yoshie Onda, and Mai Asada who had attempted them with less success. ISU officials had probably also heard about Kimmie Meissner's effort at US Nationals and seen attempts by various others in public practices at ISU championships.

Yes, i understand your point. But Miki Ando, Surya Bonaly and Sasha Koen (probably more of them) were attempting quads too... It's not like Russian ladies invented them, actually we can say that it is Japanese ladies who started 3A and quads revolution. Its just that Russian ladies are the one who are doing quads nowadays....

 

[gkelly]

My point is that if element is forbidden due to safety concern, it has to be forbidden in every discipline — just forbidding it in ladies’ short is unfair and pointless from the safety perspective.

Agreed. I wouldn't want to see skills forbidden to one sex and not the other.

But the way short programs are structured, the point has always been to have lower level of requirements that everyone in the field should be able to fulfill, and for elements that allow for multiple options, upper level of what fulfills the requirement that several competitors in the field have already demonstrated in freeskates over the years.

Don't think of elements that don't fulfill SP requirements as "forbidden." Think of the short program as it currently exists as including requirements that all skaters must fulfill. These requirements consist of a subset of all skills allowed in the freeskate. There are plenty of elements that are common in freeskates but that do not fulfill short program requirements. E.g., three-jump combinations, combination spins with flying entries and/or multiple changes of foot, change-foot upright spin (for men) or any change-foot spin in one position for women, etc. Do skaters who excel at these skills, or their fans, complain that they are "forbidden" in short programs?

Or, say, for those skaters who excelled at spiral sequences, does the fact that they are no longer required elements in the ladies' SP mean that they are forbidden?

As for ‘only one skater landed it so far’, by 2022, I predict up to 6-8 ladies being capable of landing at least one quad in competition and age-eligible.

Quite possibly.

I fully expect the question of allowing quads in the ladies' SP to come up for a vote at the 2020 ISU Congress. I will not be at all surprised if they decide to allow them beginning in 2022-23. I'd be more surprised if they make such a rule change take effect before the 2022 Olympics. I think that's only likely if there are more than 2 or 3 senior ladies who have been landing quads in competition as of 2020 Worlds.

How many men can land a quad axel in competition?

None so far.

Is it a forbidden element?

It is allowed in the freeskate for either sex, and it would be allowed as the solo jump or first jump of the combination in a men's SP under current rules, but it would not fulfill the requirement for "a double or triple axel" as the required axel jump.

There's also no rule against a quad-quad combination in a freeskate, or a triple-quad combination in a men's SP. And yet no one has tried those in competition yet either.

(If there were a bonus for putting a quad at the back of a combination, there would be more incentive to try.)

Do we complain that quad-quad combinations are "banned" or "forbidden" in men's SPs? They would certainly be more valuable there than in freeskates.

 

[NaVi]

I don't think that's a valuable argument against it. After all, Mao Asada was the only one landing 3A and they changed the rules because of it, thankfully. Even the damage was already done, because not allowing her to jump 3A as a single element in SP in Vancouver was just not fair as that was her only weapon to beat Yuna. Why acknowledging one's skaters strenght, and not another's one? I think the programmes, and competitions as a whole, would be much more interesting if more things are allowed in first place. And Mao Asada with a 3A, and Miki Ando who was jumping quads were more years in the sport than Yuna was, so...

Mao was intentionally not doing triple-triple combinations. And just like Mao could have done triple-triples skaters can currently learn the triple axel.

Figure skating is more of a game than an objective race no matter how hard people try to turn it into the latter... not being able to do a quad in the short program is little different than say the offside rule in soccer or hockey. The rules of figure skating should be treated more like the rulemaking in (google if you need to) a MOBA like Dota2 or League of Legends where the game and rules(called the "meta") are updated from time to time to keep the competition fresh and balanced. The rules should intentionally be periodically changed for both interest and balance.

What makes this discussion kind of dumb is we haven't seen those with just a 3A winning over those with quads. The system is currently balanced as it is.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Mao was intentionally not doing triple-triple combinations. And just like Mao could have done triple-triples skaters can currently learn the triple axel.

She couldn't do triple-triple in short, because she was allowed to do her 3A only in a combination. That was my point. And I'm not saying that she would win with different rules, i'm just saying that the rules weren't fair to her at that time.

 

[gkelly]

She couldn't do triple-triple in short, because she was allowed to do her 3A only in combination.

Or, in theory, she could have done it as the jump out of steps.

 

[Mathman]

She couldn't do triple-triple in short, because she was allowed to do her 3A only in a combination.

Are you sure? Couldn't she have done 3A, 3Lz+3T, 2A?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Are you sure? Couldn't she have done 3A, 3Lz+3T, 2A?

Like gkelly said, in theory she could But to be fair a lady never did 3A out of multiple steps (maybe Alyona and Rika can be counted as close to that)

 

[Mishaminion]

Maybe in retaliation the isu should look into Eteri,s group methods, I am a believer in Korpi,s statement, before long these young girls will have detrimental affects on there bodies, what’s next from there group a five rotation, this Is not skating...

Ps I would rather watch or Katarina Witt, Michelle Kwan, Carolina Kostner, kaetlyn osmond, Kiira korpi, Laura lepisto, fleur maxwell, Satoko Miyahara, mao asada on the ice,

The women’s senior age should be raised to 21,

Unbelievable hypocrisy when you consider that many of the very skaters you mentioned were competing and some even winning titles and medals at a young age.

Michelle Kwan went to 1994 Worlds aged THIRTEEN and won her first World Title aged FIFTEEN.

The same age as Sasha Trusova and Anna Shcherbakova and a year younger than Alena Kostornaia.

Satoko Miyahara was about 16 when she won her first World medal (Silver) in 2015.

Mao Asada was 17 when she won her first World medal (silver) in 2007.

Even Katerina Witt was still a teenager when she won 1984 Olympics.

I could go on too

 

[Happy Skates]

But the way short programs are structured, the point has always been to have lower level of requirements that everyone in the field should be able to fulfill, and for elements that allow for multiple options, upper level of what fulfills the requirement that several competitors in the field have already demonstrated in freeskates over the years.

If this were the case then 3As should not be allowed. You can't allow 3As and then not allow quads.

There are plenty of elements that are common in freeskates but that do not fulfill short program requirements. E.g., three-jump combinations, combination spins with flying entries and/or multiple changes of foot, change-foot upright spin (for men) or any change-foot spin in one position for women, etc. Do skaters who excel at these skills, or their fans, complain that they are "forbidden" in short programs?

The difference is that there's nothing inherently unfair about these requirements. Allowing a 3A but not a quad is unfair because it favors skaters who are better at axels than say toeloops or salchows.

Or, say, for those skaters who excelled at spiral sequences, does the fact that they are no longer required elements in the ladies' SP mean that they are forbidden?

Again, there is nothing comparable to a spiral that is allowed. The complaint about quads not being allowed is that 3As are allowed. And also that men can do them. And well-done spirals should add value by increasing transition, composition and performance marks.

I will not be at all surprised if they decide to allow them beginning in 2022-23. I'd be more surprised if they make such a rule change take effect before the 2022 Olympics. I think that's only likely if there are more than 2 or 3 senior ladies who have been landing quads in competition as of 2020 Worlds.

1) 3As were allowed in the sp before there were "more than 2 or 3 landing them in competition", why shouldn't quads be?
2) Why should the rule be determined at all by how many athletes can do a certain thing? No one tells Usain Bolt that he can't run a certain speed and have it count because he's the only one doing it. No one tells Simone Biles she can't do a triple-double in her floor routine because she's the only woman that can do it. 2 or 3 ladies is more than enough.

 

[lariko]

My point is that if element is forbidden due to safety concern, it has to be forbidden in every discipline — just forbidding it in ladies’ short is unfair and pointless from the safety perspective.

As for ‘only one skater landed it so far’, by 2022, I predict up to 6-8 ladies being capable of landing at least one quad in competition and age-eligible. Also, so few being able to land it is also not an argument against it being forbidden specifically in ladies’ short. How many men can land a quad axel in competition? Is it a forbidden element?

Agreed. I wouldn't want to see skills forbidden to one sex and not the other.

But the way short programs are structured, the point has always been to have lower level of requirements that everyone in the field should be able to fulfill, and for elements that allow for multiple options, upper level of what fulfills the requirement that several competitors in the field have already demonstrated in freeskates over the years.

Don't think of elements that don't fulfill SP requirements as "forbidden." Think of the short program as it currently exists as including requirements that all skaters must fulfill. These requirements consist of a subset of all skills allowed in the freeskate. There are plenty of elements that are common in freeskates but that do not fulfill short program requirements. E.g., three-jump combinations, combination spins with flying entries and/or multiple changes of foot, change-foot upright spin (for men) or any change-foot spin in one position for women, etc. Do skaters who excel at these skills, or their fans, complain that they are "forbidden" in short programs?

Or, say, for those skaters who excelled at spiral sequences, does the fact that they are no longer required elements in the ladies' SP mean that they are forbidden?



Quite possibly.

I fully expect the question of allowing quads in the ladies' SP to come up for a vote at the 2020 ISU Congress. I will not be at all surprised if they decide to allow them beginning in 2022-23. I'd be more surprised if they make such a rule change take effect before the 2022 Olympics. I think that's only likely if there are more than 2 or 3 senior ladies who have been landing quads in competition as of 2020 Worlds.



None so far.



It is allowed in the freeskate for either sex, and it would be allowed as the solo jump or first jump of the combination in a men's SP under current rules, but it would not fulfill the requirement for "a double or triple axel" as the required axel jump.

There's also no rule against a quad-quad combination in a freeskate, or a triple-quad combination in a men's SP. And yet no one has tried those in competition yet either.

(If there were a bonus for putting a quad at the back of a combination, there would be more incentive to try.)

Do we complain that quad-quad combinations are "banned" or "forbidden" in men's SPs? They would certainly be more valuable there than in freeskates.

As far as I get it from your post, not a single element is forbidden in men’s SP, but a quad, that men are allowed to have in SP, is not allowed to the ladies. 3A is also only available to a handful of ladies, definitely not being a universal skill. I had so far seen only 4 ladies this year and last year with 3A, only one more than those who landed quads in the same period of time. It’s illogical no matter which way I look at it. The rules have to be explicable, and this one looks like an odd exception.

 

[frida80]

Using this reasoning, shouldn’t ISU change the rules of junior ladies should be able to use the 3A as their required axel jump in the short?

 

[Mathman]

No one tells Simone Biles she can't do a triple-double in her floor routine because she's the only woman that can do it.

Although .. there was some controversy this year -- fanned by Simone Biles herself -- that the FIG deliberately undervalued her unique moves in order to hold her score down.

 

[Mathman]

Using this reasoning, shouldn’t ISU change the rules of junior ladies should be able to use the 3A as their required axel jump in the short?

American fans would go along with that. That way Alysa Liu, instead of doing her current 3A+3T, 3Lo, 2A, could do 3A. 3Lo, 3F+3T and pick up an extra 2 points.

 

[Ice Dance]

I've no problem with quads being allowed in the short. But, practically speaking, usually major rule changes are made following an Olympics so I wouldn't count on it happening now or necessarily while these particular athletes are the ones who will benefit. Rarely do federations get what they want precisely when it will benefit their athletes. And, on the plus side, rarely are rules overturned just when it will undermine the current champions either. The backloading stayed until after Med & Zag had their shot at a title. And odds are good that the axels will have their priority in the short until after Rika, Tuk, and Kostornaia have their shot too. It's easy to see that the change will probably come, but it's also easy to see why there is often a delay. Because every country may want to push for the immediate advantage of their current athletes, while the rules one really wants are the ones that benefit the larger field as a whole. I would say this one ultimately will; but generally-speaking, whenever a major rule change proposal is made (and this is a major one), I anticipate not until the next Olympiad.

 

[Mathman]

It's easy to see that the change will probably come, but it's also easy to see why there is often a delay.

I think that this is really all that needs to be said about this tempest in a teacup. Yes, quads will be allowed in the Ladies short program. Yes, this will be after the ISU hashes it over for a while.

The mills of the ISU grind slowly, but they grind exceeding small.

 

[gkelly]

1) 3As were allowed in the sp before there were "more than 2 or 3 landing them in competition", why shouldn't quads be?

The difference is that triple axels are triple jumps. The SP requirements since the mid-1970s have allowed triple jumps in the jump combination, since before any men had landed 3A in the freeskate. Which triple jump was up to the skater. It took until the mid-1980s for men to try 3A in their SP jump combinations, and by the early 1990s there were two women doing the same.

The wording had always allowed for them in the combo, but the skill levels of the skaters took a while to catch up.

But it was a lot longer before triple-triple combinations or solo triples were allowed in SPs (even for men, because of the required double jumps), let alone triple axels as the solo axel or quads as solo jump or in combo.

2) Why should the rule be determined at all by how many athletes can do a certain thing?

In the short program, because short programs were designed to compare apples to apples and to ensure that all skaters could demonstrate certain specific skills that everyone at that level should be able to do. Short programs by design have never been about pushing envelopes.

Maybe the short program has outlived that purpose and needs to be rethought.

In the freeskate, everything men are allowed to do women are allowed also. Especially now that men are no longer allowed an 8th jumping pass. And anything that fits the much broader freeskate rules is allowed even if no one has ever done it before.

But there are still some things that are not allowed in freeskates, or not rewarded by IJS and therefore not worth doing. I personally would much rather concentrate on ways to encourage unique skill development in freeskates.

No one tells Usain Bolt that he can't run a certain speed and have it count because he's the only one doing it. No one tells Simone Biles she can't do a triple-double in her floor routine because she's the only woman that can do it.

And no one tells female skaters that they can't do quads in their freeskates, or any other skill that meets the same rules that men and women are subject to.

But they do tell Usain Bolt that they won't give him medals for how fast he can run, say 163 meters, even if that would be the distance at which he could maximize his speed.

And they do tell Simone Biles that she can't compete on pommel horse, because it's not part of the women's gymnastics competition.

As far as I get it from your post, not a single element is forbidden in men’s SP,

There are lots of elements that are forbidden (or, as I'd prefer to put it, don't meet the requirements) in men's SPs.

As I mentioned in my previous post, quad-quad combinations have no place in a short program. Nor would a quad-Euler-triple combination or any other three-jump combination, or a triple axel or quad anything-triple axel sequence. Or one-foot axel-quad salchow combination -- both jumps in the SP combination must be at least double and one of them must be (at least) triple.

Same with the spin elements I mentioned in my previous post. Flying combination spin? Not allowed in the SP. Change-foot upright spin? No (as Jeremy Abbott once learned to his dismay after having failed to read the rules carefully enough). Any flying spin with change of foot? Nope. Any spin with more than one change of foot? Nyet.

All perfectly fine in freeskates, not according to requirements in SPs.

but a quad, that men are allowed to have in SP, is not allowed to the ladies.

And a solo layback with no change of foot is allowed in the ladies' SP but not allowed to the men. Or now, for that matter, a camel or sitspin with no change of foot.

If there's a man out there who can do a beautiful level 4 layback into Biellmann, he can save it for his freeskate, but it won't do him any good in the short program, aside from whichever of those positions/features he can work into his combination spin.

 

[frida80]

American fans would go along with that. That way Alysa Liu, instead of doing her current 3A+3T, 3Lo, 2A, could do 3A. 3Lo, 3F+3T and pick up an extra 2 points.

If that rule had been in place Rika could used it as a junior and been more competitive. There are other Japanese skaters working on their 3As that would benefit from this rule. Even Young could use this rule at YOG next January. Rules that we think may benefit just one country could indeed benefit several.

 

[zounger]

I don't mind not doing quads in SP for the next couple of seasons, it will lead more ladies to learn the 3A. I understand though that it is frustrating for someone who already can do them.