FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

[Edwin]

I know you’re just being hyperbolic to be dramatic here but jumps actually can influence skating skills pretty significantly. The use of steps, gliding on edges, and other means of transitioning into the jump and out of them can really help increase the SS overall mark. Not only that but when the jump is landed smoothly and those transitions into and out enhance the entire pass then it can help secure higher GOE on the jump. So I think it’s fair to say that SS can impact jump GOE and jumps with transitions can impact the SS mark.

So when a skater is banging out jumps and it’s time for a judge to mark the PCS...skaters with lots of noticeable transitions near and around jumping passes likely could see a more generous SS score than say someone who stalks their jumps. Obviously this will vary from judge to judge and to varying degrees but to say jumping isn’t related to SS is IMO not an accurate understanding of how PCS is awarded.

And this transitioning clearly differentiates between the average and the best, and the very best seemingly are able to jump out of, into or between any transition it seem.s

 

[Nord Stream 2]

From ISU Communication 2254:



Note the distinction between maximum PCS for "a fall" (singular) and "falls" (plural).

So yes, if there are two or more falls, the Performance and Interpretation scores are now supposed to be lower than 9.

Then pay attention to "Serious errors" (not "Serious error") for Satoko too.

Is it logical?

 

[Nord Stream 2]

I know you’re just being hyperbolic to be dramatic here but jumps actually can influence skating skills pretty significantly. The use of steps, gliding on edges, and other means of transitioning into the jump and out of them can really help increase the SS overall mark. Not only that but when the jump is landed smoothly and those transitions into and out enhance the entire pass then it can help secure higher GOE on the jump. So I think it’s fair to say that SS can impact jump GOE and jumps with transitions can impact the SS mark.

So when a skater is banging out jumps and it’s time for a judge to mark the PCS...skaters with lots of noticeable transitions near and around jumping passes likely could see a more generous SS score than say someone who stalks their jumps. Obviously this will vary from judge to judge and to varying degrees but to say jumping isn’t related to SS is IMO not an accurate understanding of how PCS is awarded.

Thanks Sam for saying this in English.

 

[Miller]

Then pay attention to "Serious errors" (not "Serious error") for Satoko too.

Is it logical?

I feel your response is more directed at me than GKelly who was only trying to be helpful – they posted very shortly after me and were probably putting their reply together at the same time I was posting and so would have been unaware of my message’s contents.

You’re right about the judges and Satoko. A number of them i.e. those from the US, Japan, France, Russia and Switzerland all gave PE or IN scores that were greater than the maximum that should be possible, though it does depend on what the definition of serious error is. It doesn’t say what it is, and if it includes things like URs then yes she had more than 1 serious error or fall. However if it’s only serious visual errors like steps outs, hands down, falls etc. then they’re all OK – URs by themselves don’t often impact the visual aspect of a performance, and in Satoko’s case there was only the one serious visible error, the fall.

Hence it may be the judges were right, or a multitude of them don’t understand/follow the rules. I still stand by my comment of the absurdity of Sasha having a higher SS score than Satoko though.

 

[Mishaminion]

Satoko had some visibly rough landings other than her fall

 

[jenm]

I know you’re just being hyperbolic to be dramatic here but jumps actually can influence skating skills pretty significantly. The use of steps, gliding on edges, and other means of transitioning into the jump and out of them can really help increase the SS overall mark. Not only that but when the jump is landed smoothly and those transitions into and out enhance the entire pass then it can help secure higher GOE on the jump. So I think it’s fair to say that SS can impact jump GOE and jumps with transitions can impact the SS mark.

So when a skater is banging out jumps and it’s time for a judge to mark the PCS...skaters with lots of noticeable transitions near and around jumping passes likely could see a more generous SS score than say someone who stalks their jumps. Obviously this will vary from judge to judge and to varying degrees but to say jumping isn’t related to SS is IMO not an accurate understanding of how PCS is awarded.

agree with you.
but it's not like Sasha has the best landings and edges during transitions in and out of her jumps to warrant a reward? imo.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

agree with you.
but it's not like Sasha has the best landings and edges during transitions in and out of her jumps to warrant a reward? imo.

And that’s why I said it will vary amongst the judges and to what degree. I think it’s ok to have some minor disagreement.

I think this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.
https://youtu.be/zeBe52Vsq9s?t=40s

 

[gkelly]

though it does depend on what the definition of serious error is. It doesn’t say what it is, and if it includes things like URs then yes she had more than 1 serious error or fall. However if it’s only serious visual errors like steps outs, hands down, falls etc. then they’re all OK – URs by themselves don’t often impact the visual aspect of a performance,

The passage that I quoted states "Serious errors are interruptions during the program and technical mistakes that impact the integrity/continuity/fluidity of the composition and/or its relation to the music."

It may be somewhat subjective as to what impacts the integrity/continuity/fluidity of the composition and/or its relation to the music. In general, underrotations or wrong-edge takeoffs, or even, in some cases, two-foot landings probably wouldn't count as disruptive or disrupting the integrity/continuity/fluidity of the performance.

If a casual viewer wouldn't realize there wasn't an error at all, it's probably not necessary to penalize in PCS, even if the GOE penalties are severe.

 

[jenm]

And that’s why I said it will vary amongst the judges and to what degree. I think it’s ok to have some minor disagreement.

I think this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.
https://youtu.be/zeBe52Vsq9s?t=40s

yes I agree and understand what you mean.
I forgot to add "in this event" or this season's programs.

that was a cool transition and I was blown away when I saw that before.

 

[el henry]

Brown had a cause to complain about his PCS?

Yes.

Even though Jason probably gets better PCS than most due to his stirling skating skills, he does not get the “quad PCS boost”. When I am Queen of the World, the quad PCS boost will be abolished.

Please come into the US men’s thread and we can discuss it further.

 

[Mishaminion]

Yes.

Even though Jason probably gets better PCS than most due to his stirling skating skills, he does not get the “quad PCS boost”. When I am Queen of the World, the quad PCS boost will be abolished.

Please come into the US men’s thread and we can discuss it further.

It isn't just quadsters that get a PCS bo... oh you mean just in the men?
I'll shut up
Carry on!

:scard7:

 

[Georgya]

The bias on this thread is through the roof and visibile from the moon and this is why ISU will never put artistry over jumps. We all can see a landed jump, but what is beautifull for you may not be for me. It would be a regress for this sport.

Also all the people calling hypocrisy here are more hypocrites than the russian federation. Judging errors are glossed over when is convenient for the skaters we like. If the one you champion is winning you don't care about those who are getting hit by the mistakes in judging.

Skating fans: there are too many inconsistencies in judging
Rusfed: there are too many inconsistencies in judging
Also skating fans: how dare you say something like that. Only we can say it

 

[Mishaminion]

The bias on this thread is through the roof and visibile from the moon and this is why ISU will never put artistry over jumps. We all can see a landed jump, but what is beautifull for you may not be for me. It would be a regress for this sport.

Also all the people calling hypocrisy here are more hypocrites than the russian federation. Judging errors are glossed over when is convenient for the skaters we like. If the one you champion is winning you don't care about those who are getting hit by the mistakes in judging.

Skating fans: there are too many inconsistencies in judging
Rusfed: there are too many inconsistencies in judging
Also skating fans: how dare you say something like that. Only we can say it

Everyone has an opinion

The only thing I do not like is when a certain standard of "artistry" is pushed as what all skaters should be held to, when all are different and thank god for that! It would be boring if we had 20 Satoko Miyaharas back to back at a Worlds for example.
Satoko does have (to many) great artistry, but that doesnt mean everyone needs to or should be like her. She has her style and others have theirs.

And that is why scoring non technical elements is almost impossible to standardize

As for the judging in general, it was just as inconsistent at Rostelecom Cup and swinging too far to the lenient side in some cases.

 

[Georgya]

Everyone has an opinion

The only thing I do not like is when a certain standard of "artistry" is pushed as what all skaters should be held to when all are different and thank god for that! It would be boring Iif we had 20 Satoko Miyaharas back to back at a Worlds for example.
Satoko does have (to many) great artistry, but that doesnt mean everyone needs to or should be like her. She has her style and others have theirs.

And that is why scoring non technical elements is almost impossible to standardize

My prediction - it will die. It happend in gymnastics and will happen also in figure skating. Artistry has no rules and is too subjective to be quantified without controversies. And good lord to have 20 Satoko Miyaharas would be boring as hell, no offense to this great skater.

 

[Mishaminion]

My prediction - it will die. It happend in gymnastics and will happen also in figure skating. Artistry has no rules and is too subjective to be quantified without controversies. And good lord to have 20 Satoko Miyaharas would be boring as hell, no offense to this great skater.

Having 20 of any one skater would be boring as hell

20 Sasha Trusovas would be too

 

[lariko]

Yes.

Even though Jason probably gets better PCS than most due to his stirling skating skills, he does not get the “quad PCS boost”. When I am Queen of the World, the quad PCS boost will be abolished.

Please come into the US men’s thread and we can discuss it further.

Thank you for clarifying, but should he elect to jump quads, he will receive the scaled PCS bonus, I presume, scaled to his skating mastery which is significant. I would find it very odd indeed to see someone expressing a dismay over his PCS as they are sky-high and exceed his TES scores.

 

[el henry]

Thank you for clarifying, but should he elect to jump quads, he will receive the scaled PCS bonus, I presume, scaled to his skating mastery which is significant. I would find it very odd indeed to see someone expressing a dismay over his PCS as they are sky-high and exceed his TES scores.

I agree that Jason for the most part does receive PCS commensurate with his skills. I do question skaters who I do not believe have PCS skills equal to Jason’s receiving higher PCS, but I don’t expect that to change.

More significantly, I would like to see skaters other than Jason receive appropriate PCS. I would like to see Deniss V. , for example, receive the PCS he deserves compared to skaters who are getting the Quad PCS bonus.

My argument in a nutshell

 

[lariko]

So, Brown doesn’t have a cause to complain about his scoring. I’m glad that’s not a contention point, and I can now go collect my brows from the ceiling.

 

[gkelly]

If you ask "Who was most artistic?" everyone will have a different opinion and different preferences.

If you ask, e.g., Who had the best carriage (and define what is considered good carriage), who had the clearest movements, whoh ad the best variety and contrast of movements and energy, which program had the clearest idea/concept/vision/mood demonstrated throughout the program, which program filled the most of the ice surface with the most complex and varied patterns, which skater filled the space around her/him in the most directions and the most different ways, which skater/program best matched the movements to the music, which program showed the most new moves and variations and ideas that we haven't seen over and over throughout skating history recent and/or distant, which skater moved most in time with the music, etc., there will probably be a lot more agreement on each of those criteria individually.

Who was most physically/emotionally/intellectually involved in their performance, who projected best to the audience, who showed the best individuality and personality, who best expressed the music's character, feeling, and rhythm, who best demonstrated finesse in reflecting details and nuances of the music, you'll probably get more agreement than in the general question "who was most artistic," but more disagreement than in some of the less subjective "artistic" criteria.

And then of course there will probably be disagreement about which of those various criteria are most important or otherwise in how to weight one against the other.

But you might be able to get some agreement in situations where, say, Skater A shows the most personality and engagement with the spectators, but mostly in the form of facial expression and arm movements well timed to the music; Skater B has a unique concept to the program with lots of creative body positions and other unusual details but doesn't match the music very well; and Skater C has lots of familiar moves to familiar music executed with complete control and full use of the whole body and whole ice surface.

In which case, one might say that one enjoyed Skater A the most, Skater B was the most creative, but Skater C deserves the highest component scores according to the guidelines. And there's no need to debate which one was more artistic than the others.

 

[Mishaminion]

There would probably still be just as much disagreement

The "best personality" one is particularly tricky because everyone has a different personality and a different way of showing it. Some don't even skate to match their off ice personality so how do we even define "personality?"