FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

[el henry]

So, Brown doesn’t have a cause to complain about his scoring. I’m glad that’s not a contention point, and I can now go collect my brows from the ceiling.

I didn't say that

If Jason gets 90 PCS and another skater, whose PCS is not the equivalent, gets 95 PCS, damn straight Jason's fans have cause to complain. Jason himself doesn't complain about anything, not his style.

So I think you'll need to look to your eyebrows again

 

[Miller]

Satoko had some visibly rough landings other than her fall

Not true. I made sure I re-watched her performance before I made my post, and it was surprising how smooth her performance was despite the 5 URs. There was nothing you could barely describe as wonky, let alone a serious error.

 

[rollerblade]

The bias on this thread is through the roof and visibile from the moon and this is why ISU will never put artistry over jumps. We all can see a landed jump, but what is beautifull for you may not be for me. It would be a regress for this sport.

Yes, we can all see landed jumps, but what about the quality of those landed jumps? Deep edge flowing landings, straight up & down thunk landings, "saved" landings disguised via exit transition, step-out landings converted to ugly Euler, etc etc.

What passes as beautifully landed jumps to you may not be for me. There is bias in that too.

 

[Mishaminion]

Not true. I made sure I re-watched her performance before I made my post, and it was surprising how smooth her performance was despite the 5 URs. There was nothing you could barely describe as wonky, let alone a serious error.

On many of her jumps she was not smooth, and the URs were so obvious in real time because of the "hook" of the landings. Many were not pretty, she was fighting those jumps to try to get them around. She has excellent posture and polish on her landings, it does help.

She's so good with everything else I think her jump issues are more jarring than they are with many others

 

[Miller]

On many of her jumps she was not smooth, and the URs were so obvious in real time because of the "hook" of the landings. Many were not pretty, she was fighting those jumps to try to get them around. She has excellent posture and polish on her landings, it does help.

She's so good with everything else I think her jump issues are more jarring than they are with many others

I think we'll have to disagree on this one.

Funnily enough I made the point of watching her free skate as it went on live to see how many URs and so on I could spot - with this thread in mind, plus also to see what happened with Evgenia's Lutz. At the time as I was concentrating I would have agreed with you, but sitting back watching again it was surprising how smooth she was. There was only one final thing on her final combo where she didn't hold the final position for very long but other than everything was just fine and certainly not worth a serious error.

How did I do? Well I lost concentration on the final 3Lz, probably because of the fall, but got 3 out of the other 4. I also thought the first 3Lz was UR, but they called it clean, but they called the 3Lo I thought was OK, but that I thought was UR in the last event. Was an interesting exercise to do - I'm no massive Satoko supporter though - I just like to set the record straight and be fair to all sides.

 

[Mishaminion]

I think we'll have to disagree on this one.

Funnily enough I made the point of watching her free skate as it went on live to see how many URs and so on I could spot - with this thread in mind, plus also to see what happened with Evgenia's Lutz. At the time as I was concentrating I would have agreed with you, but sitting back watching again it was surprising how smooth she was. There was only one final thing on her final combo where she didn't hold the final position for very long but other than everything was just fine and certainly not worth a serious error.

How did I do? Well I lost concentration on the final 3Lz, probably because of the fall, but got 3 out of the other 4. I also thought the first 3Lz was UR, but they called it clean, but they called the 3Lo I thought was OK, but that I thought was UR in the last event. Was an interesting exercise to do - I'm no massive Satoko supporter though - I just like to set the record straight and be fair to all sides.

I've seen smoother better landings from Satoko, in comparison to here. Her jumps have regressed even more, visible URs might not constitute "serious error" to you but if someone is URing a sizeable number of their jumping passes I'd say that is pretty serious.

I counted 7 URs, the 5 she got plus uncalled Lutz in the combo and 3S

 

[gotoschool]

Sasha's quads are impressive, but these unseen tech irregularities need to be screened in the name of consistency
triple lutz / triple toe backend ur in SP
triple lutz / triple loop backend ur in LP
Quad toe two footed landing / eul / 3 salchow in LP no GOE deduction

 

[Alegria]

Everyone has an opinion

The only thing I do not like is when a certain standard of "artistry" is pushed as what all skaters should be held to, when all are different and thank god for that!

But components are not "artistry". Rules are quite clear, but audience never read them. And most of fans can't see the difference between deep edges and poor edges. But judges must see.
When Kurakova performed her SP with the music from her FP, judges somehow found her "Interpretation of the Music" not bad. But how, if the music was totally wrong? So even judges can forget about real rules.

 

[Mathman]

When Kurakova performed her SP with the music from her FP, judges somehow found her "Interpretation of the Music" not bad. But how, if the music was totally wrong?

I think that 95% of all skating programs can be performed to almost any piece of music, without any problems of choreography or interpretation marring the experience. :yes:

 

[Georgya]

Sasha's quads are impressive, but these unseen tech irregularities need to be screened in the name of consistency
triple lutz / triple toe backend ur in SP
triple lutz / triple loop backend ur in LP
Quad toe two footed landing / eul / 3 salchow in LP no GOE deduction

Why did you mention only Trusova's quads and not other skaters with dubious triples? Why are not countless threads being opened for other skaters with unseen tech irregularities, called at one competition and not on the next one?

Bacause Trusova is winning and some may not like that? Let's be open here for a moment. I feel people suddenly (as in more this season than the last) complain here about TES vs PCS because they don't like all the russian ladies with big tech winning at GP this year.

Please remember that lenient judging is not only for Trusova, Shcherbakova or Kostornaya, it is also for non russian ladies with triples, not quads. If you ask for "more and fair" PCS for Satoko (we can all agree here that she deserve them) then give her more but also penalise her more on jumps.

I feel if Shcherbakova skated for US and Kostornaia for Canada or Japan we wouldn't have so much "scandal" and "outrage" here

 

[lariko]

I didn't say that

If Jason gets 90 PCS and another skater, whose PCS is not the equivalent, gets 95 PCS, damn straight Jason's fans have cause to complain. Jason himself doesn't complain about anything, not his style.

So I think you'll need to look to your eyebrows again

Yeah, I’ll never find them again. Colour me astounded that anyone considers Brown underscored.

And everyone has as much of a case in case of the guy or gal that speaks to them the most. Some look to be charged with the energy of the performance, some want to get misty-eyed. Judges have to find some sort of middle ground and they also disagree. The good news is that at least it is possible to win either way for them.

But we all have to make peace with the fact that whoever we favour won’t always stand on the podium. Luckily, we don’t have money riding on them winning. Imo, it’s only for the best that there is no more interminable ‘reigns’, and that the new first boys and girls are all copies of one another.

For the lovers of subjective artistic merit fest, there is ice dance and synchro, it’s heavily weighted towards who likes what better.

 

[el henry]

^^^
I would agree with most of this (to the extent I understand) except the last two sentences. And that I don’t think any successful skater copies another, but maybe I misunderstood

I have been watching men’s singles skating since 71, and I’ll continue to watch, because that is what I like the most. And the artistry and athleticism associated with blade to ice skills, as well as jumps, of the men in competitive skating is why I started watching at all. So thanks for the suggestions. but I think I’ll stick with my long term fandom

Although I’m down with ice dance too, especially my adopted grandchildren Utashin :yes:

 

[lzxnl]

Why did you mention only Trusova's quads and not other skaters with dubious triples? Why are not countless threads being opened for other skaters with unseen tech irregularities, called at one competition and not on the next one?

Bacause Trusova is winning and some may not like that? Let's be open here for a moment. I feel people suddenly (as in more this season than the last) complain here about TES vs PCS because they don't like all the russian ladies with big tech winning at GP this year.

Please remember that lenient judging is not only for Trusova, Shcherbakova or Kostornaya, it is also for non russian ladies with triples, not quads. If you ask for "more and fair" PCS for Satoko (we can all agree here that she deserve them) then give her more but also penalise her more on jumps.

I feel if Shcherbakova skated for US and Kostornaia for Canada or Japan we wouldn't have so much "scandal" and "outrage" here

I personally disagree with your last statement. I'm an advocate for marking Satoko down for her URs or downgrades, marking Alysa down for her "4"Lz and her "3"S (gosh she takes off the ice when she's turned almost a full turn), marking Vincent down for his URs and his takeoffs and marking Kaori down for her flat lutz edges. Honestly, the more carrots I see, the more I feel the judges are actually paying attention to the jumps, because tonnes of jumps are UR. My personal outrage towards the judging isn't inherently nationally determined. However, it just so happens that Eteri's skaters tend to have really poor jumping takeoffs.

In addition, because they're jumping quads, gaining such a large point value advantage from questionable amounts of extra rotation seems extremely unfair. There's a reason Nathan, Yuzuru and Boyang struggle with their beautiful quad lutzes, while Sasha and Anna don't seem to. The former three ACTUALLY rotate 3.75+ revolutions in the air off lutz takeoffs, whereas the latter two would be lucky to make 3.25, off a loop-takeoff, and Anna even has edge problems. Yuzuru's 3Lz would rotate some fraction less than Anna's 4Lz, yet he'd get half as many points as Anna for the jump. As Sasha and Anna's advantage over the rest of the field is derived solely from their ability to replace doubles with 'quads', the unsteadiness of the foundation of this inflated advantage is one main cause of this outrage. If Sasha jumped like Nathan, a good proportion of the hate around her jumps would vanish.

 

[jenm]

But components are not "artistry". Rules are quite clear, but audience never read them. And most of fans can't see the difference between deep edges and poor edges. But judges must see.
When Kurakova performed her SP with the music from her FP, judges somehow found her "Interpretation of the Music" not bad. But how, if the music was totally wrong? So even judges can forget about real rules.

This. From my understanding, the components have guidelines on what to look for, levels of mastery or excellence in executing the elements and components. It's not so subjective. Really.
Same thing with visual arts (I paint and stuff). Often times people mistake amateurish work for "style" or artists would do work of lesser quality and say it's "style". It's not.
Some painters are like Van Gogh, some are like Monet. But even tho the final products are very different, the basics are the same. Like what they say in arts and design, master the rules before you break them.

 

[Alegria]

I think that 95% of all skating programs can be performed to almost any piece of music, without any problems of choreography or interpretation marring the experience. :yes:

Of course, but that 5% should get higher marks. More higher. But we rarely see that.
It's ok when Trusova got higher marks for her quads, they are her strong points. But why she got higher marks in components when her programs are from that 95%? Why Satoko can't gain benefits from her strong points? It's not fair.

 

[gkelly]

Also, it's possible for skaters to do the same moves differently to different music.

(Or pretty much the same if the rhythms are pretty much the same. With the old Compulsory Dances, dance teams sometimes had to compete to music that they hadn't heard before the warmup. But the musical pieces for a particular dance were all chosen to be very consistent in their rhythm and tempo despite the different melodies and orchestration.)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

If Sasha jumped like Nathan, a good proportion of the hate around her jumps would vanish.

See it for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Muk64h-sWE Also, Nathan's 4 Lz is getting at least 3 points more than Anna's and at least 1.5 points more than Sasha's one which is a clear difference in points between those jumps.

 

[Alegria]

Also, it's possible for skaters to do the same moves differently to different music.

(Or pretty much the same if the rhythms are pretty much the same. With the old Compulsory Dances, dance teams sometimes had to compete to music that they hadn't heard before the warmup. But the musical pieces for a particular dance were all chosen to be very consistent in their rhythm and tempo despite the different melodies and orchestration.)

But there were different Program Components. For example, no "choreography".

 

[Mishaminion]

I personally disagree with your last statement. I'm an advocate for marking Satoko down for her URs or downgrades, marking Alysa down for her "4"Lz and her "3"S (gosh she takes off the ice when she's turned almost a full turn), marking Vincent down for his URs and his takeoffs and marking Kaori down for her flat lutz edges. Honestly, the more carrots I see, the more I feel the judges are actually paying attention to the jumps, because tonnes of jumps are UR. My personal outrage towards the judging isn't inherently nationally determined. However, it just so happens that Eteri's skaters tend to have really poor jumping takeoffs.

In addition, because they're jumping quads, gaining such a large point value advantage from questionable amounts of extra rotation seems extremely unfair. There's a reason Nathan, Yuzuru and Boyang struggle with their beautiful quad lutzes, while Sasha and Anna don't seem to. The former three ACTUALLY rotate 3.75+ revolutions in the air off lutz takeoffs, whereas the latter two would be lucky to make 3.25, off a loop-takeoff, and Anna even has edge problems. Yuzuru's 3Lz would rotate some fraction less than Anna's 4Lz, yet he'd get half as many points as Anna for the jump. As Sasha and Anna's advantage over the rest of the field is derived solely from their ability to replace doubles with 'quads', the unsteadiness of the foundation of this inflated advantage is one main cause of this outrage. If Sasha jumped like Nathan, a good proportion of the hate around her jumps would vanish.

Anna and Sasha do not have the same 4lz technique.
Sasha has better technique overall
Alyona is an Eteri girl her technique is also very good (not perfect but nobody is), why do people do this...paint all the Eteri girls with the same brush, make them sound identical

Also no 15 year old deserves "hate" for what they do or don't do on the ice. No skater of any age even

 

[lzxnl]

Anna and Sasha do not have the same 4lz technique.
Sasha has better technique overall
Alyona is an Eteri girl her technique is also very good (not perfect but nobody is), why do people do this...paint all the Eteri girls with the same brush, make them sound identical

Also no 15 year old deserves "hate" for what they do or don't do on the ice. No skater of any age even

That is true, they don't deserve hate. I merely claim that their awful jumping technique should be penalised.

Sasha used to have better lutz technique than Anna, that is true. However, this season she has prerotated that quarter turn more than in previous years, and she's been using more of the whole blade to takeoff; she used to take off straight from the pick. I wonder what's caused her to do this.

See it for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Muk64h-sWE Also, Nathan's 4 Lz is getting at least 3 points more than Anna's and at least 1.5 points more than Sasha's one which is a clear difference in points between those jumps.

Sasha's 4T actually does deserve +GOE; it's a very well-done jump. Her '4'Lz really should not be. I'm glad her 4S got called as UR this time as it was UR at SC too.