Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[Mathman]

Of course there is a tiny possibility that Mirai likes mushed potatoes.

I totally agree! But wait...something is forcing me to type this one extra potato...no, no, somebody stop me,...

OK, here it is. USFS has one more Kwanoramic conspiracy up it's sleeve. It is 2012. Mao Asada, true to everyone's predictions, has won the World Championship in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011. (Somehow Yu-na Kim slipped in there for the Olympic gold medal in 2010.) Mao is going for her fifth World Championship to tie Michelle's record.

But Mirai Nagusa, secretly brainwashed and programmed from birth for just this moment, jumps up with her triple Axel and monster array of triple/triples, and wins World gold (Mao 2nd) to preserve the legacy of the Kween.

 

[krenseby]

The dark ages of MK dominance is over. What will change?

The USFSA can't afford to waste young talents anymore. Real competitions set in even at US nationals. Since the de facto standard is set by Mao Asada, "they" can't favor good looks and "beautiful spirals" just for entertainments. Only skaters with great jumps and flexibility can survive. Junior skaters are what "their" desperate hopes are laid on. I don't know US Jr nationals was as much publicized as this year before. Caroline and Mirai (or even Flatt) were considered saviours of US figure skating. They can't escape pressure.

I will agree with rutinia in a certain respect. If the USFSA rewarded Michelle for elegant skating and spirals, they did not do it out of favoritism but because the international judges favored that kind of thing at the time as well.

Ladylike, graceful skating was one of the things that helped women win at Worlds and at the Olympics, though not the only thing. So, yes Michelle was rewarded for it because it mattered in figure skating in the pre-COP days.

 

[mskater93]

Kwan was also awarded for SPEED. If you ever saw the final group during the "dark Kwan age" at US Nationals in person, you'd know not many people could touch her for speed and flow out on the ice.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Um... just by the way, Michelle switched her solo triple jump from a flip to a toe loop, and fell on it, and STILL was 3rd? I tend to disagree with the placement, but then again I didn't watch the rest of the competitors. I really feel like the judges were making everything work out so she could still win with a good free skate (since the top 3 had an equal chance at winning if they won the LP). Sasha deserved to be first, she was clean and her solo jump was a flip, more difficult than Michelle's toe loop...


Kypma

I actually agree. Michelle fell on her triple toe in that short program, and still won a couple 1st place votes IIRC over newcomer Cohen who did a clean performance with a solo triple flip. Nikidinov skated clean, and was extremely boring, but still technicaly sound, solid on all elements, and also did a solo triple flip. I would have had Michelle 4th in the short, not 3rd, which could have cost her the title.

 

[Kypma]

I actually agree. Michelle fell on her triple toe in that short program, and still won a couple 1st place votes IIRC over newcomer Cohen who did a clean performance with a solo triple flip. Nikidinov skated clean, and was extremely boring, but still technicaly sound, solid on all elements, and also did a solo triple flip. I would have had Michelle 4th in the short, not 3rd, which could have cost her the title.

I agree with you, and, actually, I'm pretty sure a 5th place SP would have cost Michelle the title. She would have needed to beat Sasha by 2 places to win, so even if she won the long, if Sasha came in second, Sasha would still have won the title...

Kypma

 

[rtureck]

I actually agree. Michelle fell on her triple toe in that short program, and still won a couple 1st place votes IIRC over newcomer Cohen who did a clean performance with a solo triple flip. Nikidinov skated clean, and was extremely boring, but still technicaly sound, solid on all elements, and also did a solo triple flip. I would have had Michelle 4th in the short, not 3rd, which could have cost her the title.

Even if MK placed 4th IMO MK still got the title. I think Sarah Hughes should be place 2nd in sp, and second in lp, and Cohen 3rd in the lp. That gives MK and SH a tie, and since MK won the lp, the broke the tie, so the final podium finish should be MK, SH and SC.

if Sasha came in second, Sasha would still have won the title...

SC should not have placed 2nd in the lp, Sarah deserved the second place.

 

[rtureck]

I will agree with rutinia in a certain respect. If the USFSA rewarded Michelle for elegant skating and spirals, they did not do it out of favoritism but because the international judges favored that kind of thing at the time as well.

Ladylike, graceful skating was one of the things that helped women win at Worlds and at the Olympics, though not the only thing. So, yes Michelle was rewarded for it because it mattered in figure skating in the pre-COP days.

Actually Rutinia is making all sorts of claims about dark ages with absolutely no basis. MK has been winning 3 world berths for USA every year, that means international judges love her skating too. Rutinia is claiming that MK was preventing young skaters for chances to go to worlds etc. Since every year when Kwan competed, USA sent 3 skaters to world (top 3), so MK was not getting in the way of the silver or bronze medalists of going to world. Anyone who who is able to make a case of MK being outskated by a 4th place finisher at US nationals, then the claim about "dark ages" etc may make sense. So far all we heard is a flawed under rotated triple axel from Kimmie. Under COP, Kimmie's under rotated triple axel would be down graded to a double axel,.

 

[chuckm]

So Rutinia claims that the USFS “gave” Michelle Kwan her 9 titles and 3 silver medals and deprived other skaters of a chance to shine. As rtureck pointed out, the US sent three skaters to Worlds all those years that Kwan won the US title, so the other two skaters who went had every chance to beat Kwan internationally. Sasha did that, in 2004 and 2005, and of course Hughes at the 2002 Olympics.

So I guess it was all those marvelous 4th place skaters at US Nationals that were “robbed” of a chance to appear on the World stage because Kwan finished ahead of them. Just for the record, they were:

1994: Elaine Zayak (returned from retirement)
1995: Kyoko Ina
1996: Sydne Vogel
1997: Angela Nikodinov
1998: Tonia Kwiatkowski
1999: Erin Pearl (5th: #2 Naomi Nari Nam was too young to go to Worlds so #4 S. Hughes went)
2000: Angela Nikodinov
2001: Jennifer Kirk
2002: Angela Nikodinov
2003: AP McDonough
2004: Amber Corwin
2005: Beatrisa Liang (5th: #3 Kimmie Meissner was too young, so #4 Jennifer Kirk went)

Some of these ladies were Junior 'stars' (Vogel, Pearl, Kirk, McDonough) who never went on to senior success. Others, like Kwiatkowski, Corwin and Liang finished in the top 10 (and often the top 6) at US Nationals year after year, but aside from the occasional 4CC or GP medal, never attained high status internationally.

Some of them did make it to Worlds:
Zayak, of course, was a star of the 80s: she won World gold (1982), silver (1981) and bronze (1984), and was 6th at the 1984 Olympics. She attempted a comeback at age 28 in 1994, and 4th place at Nationals was an achievement for her.
Kwiatkowski was 6th in 1998.
Nikodinov was 5th in 2001
Kirk was 4th in the QR in 2002, but dropped out with injury after the SP. She also went to Worlds 2004 and 2005, finishing 18th and 17th.

 

[slutskayafan21]

So Rutinia claims that the USFS “gave” Michelle Kwan her 9 titles and 3 silver medals and deprived other skaters of a chance to shine. As rtureck pointed out, the US sent three skaters to Worlds all those years that Kwan won the US title, so the other two skaters who went had every chance to beat Kwan internationally. Sasha did that, in 2004 and 2005, and of course Hughes at the 2002 Olympics.

So I guess it was all those marvelous 4th place skaters at US Nationals that were “robbed” of a chance to appear on the World stage because Kwan finished ahead of them. Just for the record, they were:

1994: Elaine Zayak (returned from retirement)
1995: Kyoko Ina
1996: Sydne Vogel
1997: Angela Nikodinov
1998: Tonia Kwiatkowski
1999: Erin Pearl (5th: #2 Naomi Nari Nam was too young to go to Worlds so #4 S. Hughes went)
2000: Angela Nikodinov
2001: Jennifer Kirk
2002: Angela Nikodinov
2003: AP McDonough
2004: Amber Corwin
2005: Beatrisa Liang (5th: #3 Kimmie Meissner was too young, so #4 Jennifer Kirk went)

In 2000 Nikidinov actually did go to Worlds. Sasha Cohen had to medal at Junior Worlds to be eligible and did not, so Nikidinov went instead and finished 9th. Andrea Gardiner, 5th place at those Nationals, would have been next in line.

Thanks for making that list. We should all actually be thanking for Michelle Kwan for preventing the U.S from having to send some of those women to Worlds. I dont get enthused thinking of the prospect of having had Kyoka Ina, Erin Pearl, 2001 version of Jenny Kirk, or Amber Corwin, representing the U.S at Worlds.

To be honest the only ones who I wish had gotten the chance, but of course were just bumped out by one spot, by the incredible depth of U.S womens skating, was Kwiatkwoski for the 98 Olympics, and Nikidinov for the 2002 Olympics. Maybe add Ann Patrice McDonough for the 2003 Worlds to that. The others it was just as well they didnt make it.

 

[chuckm]

In 2000 Nikidinov actually did go to Worlds. Sasha Cohen had to medal at Junior Worlds to be eligible and did not, so Nikidinov went instead and finished 9th. Andrea Gardiner, 5th place at those Nationals, would have been next in line.

Angela went in 1999 also. She was 12th in '99, 9th in '00 and 5th in '01.

She injured her shoulder (a disclocation like Miki Ando's) and had to have surgery, so she didn't compete at Nationals 2003. On her return in 2004, she placed 5th; and on the way to Nationals 2005 she lost her mother and suffered a severe injury to her arm in a tragic accident.

But who would you have bumped for the 2002 Olympics? Sarah won, Kwan was 3rd and Cohen 4th. As much as I like Angela, I don't think she would have outfinished Hughes, Kwan and Cohen, or even placed in the top 6. She is a lovely skater, but she usually put herself out of contention by making a mistake midway through her FS and then doubling all her triples after that.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Angela went in 1999 also. She was 12th in '99, 9th in '00 and 5th in '01.

She injured her shoulder (a disclocation like Miki Ando's) and had to have surgery, so she didn't compete at Nationals 2003. On her return in 2004, she placed 5th; and on the way to Nationals 2005 she lost her mother and suffered a severe injury to her arm in a tragic accident.

But who would you have bumped for the 2002 Olympics? Sarah won, Kwan was 3rd and Cohen 4th. As much as I like Angela, I don't think she would have outfinished Hughes, Kwan and Cohen, or even placed in the top 6. She is a lovely skater, but she usually put herself out of contention by making a mistake midway through her FS and then doubling all her triples after that.

I would not have bumped anyone that did go to the 2002 Olympics for Angela. I do think the 3 they sent are the 3 that would have finished the highest, and higher then she would have. I also think they are the 3 who clearly had the better performances in the free skate at Nationals (in the short all were great), so her being the one who missed was correctly judged at the Nationals as well.

What I meant was with her her missing out on the 2002 Olympics, due to the depth of U.S women, is that it was one of the few occasions of those years you listed the "next in line", where even the one who missed out on spot, would have been nice to see have competed for the U.S if there had been room for them. Like kind of an "it is just a shame for that person there are so many great skaters in front of them" sort of way. Where many of those others like Erin Pearl or Kyoka Ina (in singles) I see it as a good thing there was one person enough to keep them from going.

Hypotheticaly though, if she skated a clean short program at SLC (she was a fairly consistent short program skater) she had a fair shot of coming somewhere from 4th to 6th, if she were one of the 3 U.S women. She usually competed closely with Suguri, Butyrskaya was very dissapointing in SLC, and Robinson was the one who finished 7th. Her 5th at the 2001 Worlds was with some mistakes in her free skate too (yes I know she is expected to make mistakes in the free skate, but that is why I point that out).

 

[hockeyfan228]

But who would you have bumped for the 2002 Olympics? ]Sarah won, Kwan was 3rd and Cohen 4th. As much as I like Angela, I don't think she would have outfinished Hughes, Kwan and Cohen, or even placed in the top 6. She is a lovely skater, but she usually put herself out of contention by making a mistake midway through her FS and then doubling all her triples after that.

Based on US Nationals, Hughes, who had an awful competition.

I don't care that Hughes won Olympics and that Nikodinov might have been lucky to make top 10 in SLC. Qualification was supposedly based on Nationals, and in my opinion, Nikodinov, while not perfect, outskated a mediocre Hughes at Nationals and deserved to skate in SLC.

Just as Gutsu, who won an Olympic all-around gold in gymnastics, did not deserve to compete in the finals, for which she didn't qualify. The Soviet Fed created an "injury" for her teammate who did qualify, so that Gutsu could squeak into the finals.

Nagasu is quite lovely in the You Tube clip.

 

[gkelly]

Sorry to stray off topic again (or is it any more?) . . .

The one time, I will give you that Michelle's placement was completely unfair was at the 1997 National Championships, where Michelle Kwan fell all over the place and placed second. THAT, I will give you was a joke.

The problem was, there was really only one lady at 1997 Nationals who skated two clean programs, and that was Tara Lipinski. WHOEVER ended up with the silver was going to be someone who had one or more disruptive errors in at least one program.

Did you also watch the short programs?

Standings after the short were
1. Kwan
2. Lipinski
3. Kwiatkowski
4. Corwin
5. Nikodinov
6. Bobek
and then everyone else

Lipinski and Kwiatkowski "controlled their own destiny." Corwin and Nikodinov needed some other skater to get between them and Kwan in order to defeat her. Bobek needed two other skaters to get between.

Standings for the long were
1 Lipinski
2 Bobek
3 Kwan
4 Nikodinov
5 Corwin
6 Kwiatkowski

There's a good argument for putting Kwan 4th in the long, behind Nikodinov. If that had happened, the medal placements would not have changed:

2 1 Lipinski 1.0 + 1.0 = 2.0
1 4 Kwan 0.5 + 4.0 = 4.5
6 2 Bobek 3.0 + 2.0 = 5.0
5 3 Nikodinov 2.5 + 3.0 = 5.5

The only way for Kwan to have placed 3rd overall would have been for Nikodinov to defeat Bobek in the long and/or for Kwan to be 5th or lower in the long, behind Corwin. For her to have missed the podium entirely, both would have to have happened.
Looking beyond jumps landed and missed, there were good skating-related reasons why those things wouldn't have happened.

 

[GoldMedalist]

[Talking about 2000 Nationals]

Even if MK placed 4th IMO MK still got the title. I think Sarah Hughes should be place 2nd in sp, and second in lp, and Cohen 3rd in the lp. That gives MK and SH a tie, and since MK won the lp, the broke the tie, so the final podium finish should be MK, SH and SC.

IMO, MK and SC were pretty much equal in the LP both technically and artistically. They both fell on one jump and bobbled on one of their Triple Lutzes. Sasha flutzes but has better spins than Kwan. I would have given the Gold to Sasha because her Short Program was better.

I'd have Hughes in third. I don't remember anything remarkable about her LP.

 

[rtureck]

IMO, MK and SC were pretty much equal in the LP both technically and artistically. They both fell on one jump and bobbled on one of their Triple Lutzes. Sasha flutzes but has better spins than Kwan. I would have given the Gold to Sasha because her Short Program was better.

I'd have Hughes in third. I don't remember anything remarkable about her LP.

Cohen's lp at 2000 was more than just fell on one jump and bobbled in her 3z. The music edition was hedious, Mendelssohn probably turned in his grave. Her ice coverage was limited, don't even talk about variation of speed, there was no speed, her spins travelled., her edges or lack of edges was obvious, There is no way SC tied with MK in the lp, not even tied with SH. JMO, the final placement should be MK, SH and SC.

 

[Mathman]

I have to agree with RTureck. In 2000, Michelle's basic skating technique -- where the blade meets the ice -- was miles ahead of "baby ballerina" Sasha. Sasha improved quite a bit from that time to her peak in 2004, as was to be expected.

But I disagree with Slutskayafan that skaters such as Kyoto Ina, Sydney Vogel, Erin Pearl or Amber Corwin would have disgraced the U.S. if they had ever had a chance to compete at Worlds. They would have done us proud and -- who knows -- might even have had a "Liz Manley moment."

 

[GoldMedalist]

Cohen's lp at 2000 was more than just fell on one jump and bobbled in her 3z. The music edition was hedious, Mendelssohn probably turned in his grave. Her ice coverage was limited, don't even talk about variation of speed, there was no speed, her spins travelled., her edges or lack of edges was obvious, There is no way SC tied with MK in the lp, not even tied with SH. JMO, the final placement should be MK, SH and SC.

I found nothing wrong with Cohen's music. I liked her 2000 LP better than the ones she had in 2004 and 2005. She seemed to have plenty of speed to me as well. I'm going to have to agree with Dick Button for once - "I think there would be no doubt and a very clear point of view if she hadn't fallen on that last move". Perhaps I should go look again.

 

[passion]

I was as awed and amazed by Mirai as the Japanese press. She has superb basic skating skills, which lead me to believe that she will be a force for years a la Michelle Kwan rather than a flash in the pan. Everything about her skating is just the best and I can't wait to see more of her.

ITA. To me, she has the whole package. Superb skating skills and speed. Exquisite spin positions, fast and centred. Superior flexibility. Probably the best jumping technique I have seen in many years. Consistent. Diverse in her music style. Good presentation. She could probably still grow in the musicality department, but nevertheless well beyond her years. She really has a future.

 

[rtureck]

I found nothing wrong with Cohen's music.

I love Mendelssohn's violin concerto, and IMO Cohen butchered the music with that hedious edition. BTW, Honda skated to Mendelssohn's VC as a sp that same year, take a listen and you can see the difference in the music edits and the way he interpret it. Cohen never has good speed, not even after her training with TT. In 2000 Sarah's out speed her by half a mile, IMO.

"I think there would be no doubt and a very clear point of view if she hadn't fallen on that last move".

That comment applies to 2000 lp and many competition programs that followed. Cohen is much better as a show skater vs being a competitive skater, and since she is with SOI, that is where she should be.

 

[Mathman]

That comment applies to 2000 lp and many competition programs that followed.

To me, all this going back and speculating about what "should" have happened overlooks the central fact of the 6.0 system -- namely, that figure skating is (or was, before the CoP) a judged sport.

Detroit Tigers 6, Boston Red Sox 3. Is there any point in going back and saying, but two of those Detroit runs ought to have gone to Boston instead, so Boston "really" won?

In the 1998 Olympics, Tara won, 6 judges to 3. What is there to argue about? Do we feel that the Slovenian judge and Danish judge "should" have liked Michelle's performance better, so Michelle "ought to have won" four to five?

We can, of course, say that we liked Michelle's performance better -- but that's another thing altogether.