2021 U.S. Nationals: Senior Pairs - Short Program

[SkateTM0102]

I keep reading comments implying that the judges are "dumping" Ashley and Tim.

I just don't think that is accurate. Yep, they finished fourth in this segment, but they were also outskated by three other teams... in my opinion, anyway.

• Alexa and Brandon skated really well. Sure, you can quibble about the brush with the ice on the throw, but honestly, I didn't even notice it, even on replay. It didn't effect the flow of the exit at any rate.
• I thought Jessica and Brian were actually fairly close to Ashley and Tim in the way they skated their program... but Brian and Jessica justifiably beat them on the big ticket pair items - the twist and the lift. Those were really world class elements - so overall a fairly equal feeling as they left the ice, but Jessica and Brian were great where it really counted on the scoreboard.
• Audrey and Misha skated a very clean very difficult program. Yes, they're still working on connection and "feels" but every element, taken in isolation, was difficult and really well done. I wasn't surprised at all that they beat Ashley and Tim on the basis of technical superiority, even while justifiably giving up ground on the second mark.

Sure, we can argue over a point here or a point there. It's what we skating fans love to do. I certainly do that myself. But I don't see any justification for the "dumping" arguments that are being made, at least in this competition. Three teams delivered better programs, so Tim and Ashley finished fourth. That's not an unfair result.

I agree with this so much! And I thought C/J were scored generously as well. She had a fall and a q on the side by sides. Those are given point values based on the worst jump so that’s a lot of points lost! Side note, I wish they did side by side jumps and spins with values like they do for twizzles and some other things in ice dance. That way both partners got credit for what they attempted.
Also, C/J did not have a smooth landing on their throw. K/F had a slight touch down that didn’t affect the flow on the landing, and still hit enough features to get positive GOE overall. C/J also got positive GOE on their throw with a mistake because they hit other features. C-G/L had a two foot landing that was very obvious and longer than K/F plus a fall and an under on the side by sides. Add this to the fact that they have been less consistent the past few seasons and this leads to lower GOEs. It’s unfortunate because they are a good pair team, but they need to put out consistently good skates and I’m sure their scores will go up!

 

[moonvine]

The Peacock platform is awful. Period.

Please join me in complaining to them.

 

[TontoK]

I concur. Ashley and Tim are my favorite pairs team, but they were outskated by three other teams in the SP. I don't think any dumping happened. But with the consistency of US pairs being very questionable, Ashley and Tim do have a chance to move up if they skate well. Still the long program to go. It's sometimes unwise to come to conclusions before a competition is completed.

Absolutely they have a chance to move up. Pairs is an unpredicatable discipline, more than the others I think, and anything can happen.

Nothing in my original post should be read as me writing them off. They are a talented team, and if they skate their best I expect them to move up at least one spot. And if there are mistakes by the others, they could really make a move up the leaderboard if they skate their best.

I wish them, and all the competitors luck.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I would rather listen to fingernails on a chalkboard than listen to Johnny and Tara on NBC

IMO, having now seen the NBCSN commentary, J&T can over-hype and unnecessarily chatter. But they are doing what NBC wants and expects. Plus, NBC is a mouthpiece for U.S. fed for the most part. But Johnny at least is daring in stating where he bravely disagrees: For eg., Johnny has pointed out strongly the need for better camera angles for the judges during both the pairs and ladies short programs:

e.g., highlighting that both Ashley and Alexa touched down (double-footed slightly) on their throws. But only Ashley was dinged with negative GOE, while Alexa received very high GOE (approx. 1.20). Ashley got (negative 0.53). Ash's double-foot was perhaps slightly more visible. But it is the job of the tech panel to call accurately for all the skaters. The other eg. is the numerous close URs in the ladies event, which were largely ignored, except for certain skaters being dinged and others not dinged. Johnny called it out with a skater's skater advocacy, and I appreciate that. As he said, all of the skaters need to have confidence that the event will be judged fairly and accurately!

 

[SkateTM0102]

e.g., highlighting that both Ashley and Alexa touched down (double-footed slightly) on their throws. But only Ashley was dinged with negative GOE, while Alexa received very high GOE (approx. 1.20). Ashley got (negative 0.53). Ash's double-foot was perhaps slightly more visible. But it is the job of the tech panel to call accurately for all the skaters. The other eg. is the numerous close URs in the ladies event, which were largely ignored, except for certain skaters being dinged and others not dinged. Johnny called it out with a skater's skater advocacy, and I appreciate that. As he said, all of the skaters need to have confidence that the event will be judged fairly and accurately!

To me, Alexa’s was more of a brush of the free foot and Ashley’s was a clear two foot, either way the tech panel has nothing to do with the GOE for touching the free foot down on a throw, that’s the judges. Hopefully they will all skate lights out tomorrow and make for a GREAT competition!

 

[gold12345]

Knierim/Frazier are amazing together and get better each time out. It's exciting for the US to have a pair with high quality elements across the board that is also solid, even after just 8 months together. Their twist is big, their throws are big, all of their elements are very strong, which should help keep them calmer in competition. Their confidence should continue to build the more times they compete. There are always things to work on, but I really like where they're headed.

K/F's throw was absolutely a +GOE throw, at any competition. The slight brush of the foot didn't disrupt the flow of throw and was so minor I'm surprised Johnny Weir even mentioned it. It's clear he doesn't know all the rules for pairs scoring/levels. Pairs with huge & explosive throws check enough boxes where they can afford a slight tap down and still get +GOE. Alexa (as well as any other team in the world with huge throws such as Tarasova/Morozov) has always received +GOE for her throws unless the error is egregious. Her throws with Brandon have a similar explosiveness as her throws with Chris. If the judges hammered pairs with huge throws for slight 2-foots, all the pairs would be babying their throws into the air for the sake of a perfect landing, and I doubt the sport wants to go backwards 30 years in that direction.

Calalang/Johnson get great height on their twist, have nice lifts, and skate well together. They are shaky/tense jumpers-- her more than him because she often has underrotation issues. And their somewhat unorthodox throws stop me from saying that have great pair elements across the board. She did throws similarly to this with her old partner (kind of jerky & lacking distance). I'm hoping they make the World team with K/F, as this is likely our only realistic path to attempting to get 3 Olympic spots.

Lu/Mitrofanov were solid in the SP; it's usually their stronger program. Their SBS 3S were strong, but their pair elements aren't as competitive. I would classify a couple of their elements as weak, even when they do them the best they can.

I don't think anyone is out to get Cain/LeDuc. They took the SBS 3Lo out of their SP and are now having issues with the 3S instead. She has underrotated something at every competition. She is tall and it affects elements. Her 2-foot on the throw was a bigger mistake than K/F's; she also regularly lands with her chest down by her knee. Their throw isn't very explosive or far, so they can't afford a 2-foot as much as teams with stronger throws. To be fair, C/J's throws aren't that great either. C/L have some lovely qualities that make them enjoyable, but it's an uphill battle for them. They will skate better than this at times, they just aren't as good with the elements.

Maybe K/F could score around 70 or so for this program starting out as a new pair internationally. I'm not sure how international judges, would rate K/F, but it wouldn't be 77 first time out. I think 74 to 75 would have been a reasonable score for K/F at this event, and perhaps 70+ for C/J; 67 for L/M, and a close 66 for Ash/Tim. The protocols show that the judges dropped C-G/L down another point to 65 behind L/M. Somebody really has it in for C-G/L -- a way to beat them down when their confidence is shaky.

L/M may deserve to be slightly ahead of C-G/L, but no way ahead of Calalang/Johnson. I would have L/M around 67, not 69. I also think U.S. fed needs to realize that K/F are a new pair despite how well they have come together. That means K/F have to make a good impression on Worlds judges who will not be interested in giving them anything. So treat all of your talented pairs fairly, and try not to exalt one team way above the others.

Knierim/Frazier earned their lead and shouldn't be held down for being a new team. They're highly established pair skaters with long resumes, especially Alexa. When Volosozhar/Trankov were a brand new pair, they medaled right away in everything and certainly weren't being held down for being new. Alexa used to score 70+ internationally with a missed jump with Chris, so I could see her easily scoring 75+ with Brandon. K/F have gelled quite seamlessly and I think they will score better than the Knierims ever did sooner rather than later. They are not new to the scene as individuals; World level judges definitely know who they are, especially after watching Skate America from afar.

Scores at Nationals tend to skew higher. But K/F truly have world class elements that should score well anywhere. Compare this to Lu/Mitrofanov, who score fine at US Nationals but have gotten lost in the shuffle internationally. Their international PB is very low, in part due to their average at best pair elements. I agree with you that just because L/M skated clean it doesn't mean the score needed to be even higher. It's not just a PCS thing, they're weaker in the non-SBS elements. I think their throws have gotten a bit better but they are still small comparatively.

Whoa! It looks to me like the judges were intent on being overly harsh to Olivia & Mervin. They landed the throw, though it was a slight lean. I don't see that being -.53 Why such a high deduction. It was barely a problem on the landing. And they kept picking away on practically every element.

Olivia & Mervin have very small throws. They may be easier to land that way, but they aren't of good quality, hence the low GOE they receive even if the landing is fine. The point of a throw is to really chuck the girl into the air, not just assist the girl on a solo jump. We of course have singles skating for solo jumps.

Even though NBC highlighted and touted Knierim/Frazier's triple twist, Jessica & Brian have the best 3-twist out of all U.S. pairs teams. It is so high, light and effortless. They make it look so easy, and it's not. K/F also have a superb triple twist with great height, but maybe a tad less high than C/J's. The judges noticed accurately in this instance. If you check the protocols, you will see that K/F got one 3, one 5 and the rest 4s for their triple twist. Jessica & Brian got straight 5s across the board on their triple twist.

I slightly prefer Alexa's twist technique to Jessica's. It's a slightly better aesthetic and more effortless to me. But C/J's twist is a little higher for sure. It took them a couple years to get it that high, whereas K/F just learned theirs together. They had to revamp Brandon's technique and I'm pleasantly surprised by how quickly they're able to do a great and high twist.

 

[SkateTM0102]

Knierim/Frazier are amazing together and get better each time out. It's exciting for the US to have a pair with high quality elements across the board that is also solid, even after just 8 months together. Their twist is big, their throws are big, all of their elements are very strong, which should help keep them calmer in competition. Their confidence should continue to build the more times they compete. There are always things to work on, but I really like where they're headed.

K/F's throw was absolutely a +GOE throw, at any competition. The slight brush of the foot didn't disrupt the flow of throw and was so minor I'm surprised Johnny Weir even mentioned it. It's clear he doesn't know all the rules for pairs scoring/levels. Pairs with huge & explosive throws check enough boxes where they can afford a slight tap down and still get +GOE. Alexa (as well as any other team in the world with huge throws such as Tarasova/Morozov) has always received +GOE for her throws unless the error is egregious. Her throws with Brandon have a similar explosiveness as her throws with Chris. If the judges hammered pairs with huge throws for slight 2-foots, all the pairs would be babying their throws into the air for the sake of a perfect landing, and I doubt the sport wants to go backwards 30 years in that direction.

Calalang/Johnson get great height on their twist, have nice lifts, and skate well together. They are shaky/tense jumpers-- her more than him because she often has underrotation issues. And their somewhat unorthodox throws stop me from saying that have great pair elements across the board. She did throws similarly to this with her old partner (kind of jerky & lacking distance). I'm hoping they make the World team with K/F, as this is likely our only realistic path to attempting to get 3 Olympic spots.

Lu/Mitrofanov were solid in the SP; it's usually their stronger program. Their SBS 3S were strong, but their pair elements aren't as competitive. I would classify a couple of their elements as weak, even when they do them the best they can.

I don't think anyone is out to get Cain/LeDuc. They took the SBS 3Lo out of their SP and are now having issues with the 3S instead. She has underrotated something at every competition. She is tall and it affects elements. Her 2-foot on the throw was a bigger mistake than K/F's; she also regularly lands with her chest down by her knee. Their throw isn't very explosive or far, so they can't afford a 2-foot as much as teams with stronger throws. To be fair, C/J's throws aren't that great either. C/L have some lovely qualities that make them enjoyable, but it's an uphill battle for them. They will skate better than this at times, they just aren't as good with the elements.





Knierim/Frazier earned their lead and shouldn't be held down for being a new team. They're highly established pair skaters with long resumes, especially Alexa. When Volosozhar/Trankov were a brand new pair, they medaled right away in everything and certainly weren't being held down for being new. Judging by the fact that Alexa used to score 70+ internationally with a missed jump with Chris, I could see her easily scoring 75+ with Brandon. K/F have gelled quite seamlessly and I think they will score better than the Knierims ever did sooner rather than later. They are not new to the scene as individuals; World level judges definitely know who they are, especially after watching Skate America from afar.

Scores at Nationals tend to skew higher. But K/F truly have world class elements that should score well anywhere. Compare this to Lu/Mitrofanov, who always score their best at US Nationals but get lost in the shuffle more internationally. Their international PBs are very low, in part due to their very average at best pair elements. I agree with you that just because L/M skated clean it doesn't mean the score needed to be even higher. It's not just a PCS thing, they're weaker in the non-SBS elements. I think their throws have gotten a bit better but they are still small comparatively.




Olivia & Mervin have very small throws. They may be easier to land that way, but they aren't of good quality, hence the low GOE they receive even if the landing is fine. The point of a throw is to really chuck the girl into the air, not just assist the girl on a solo jump. We of course have singles skating for solo jumps.



I slightly prefer Alexa's twist technique to Jessica's. It's a slightly better aesthetic and more effortless to me. But C/J's twist is a little higher for sure. It took them a couple years to get it that high, whereas K/F just learned theirs together. They had to revamp Brandon's technique and I'm pleasantly surprised by how quickly they're able to do a great and high twist.

I agree with everything you said and you said it better than I could! One question, I know there’s been talk about dropping tech scores for worlds IF they happen, but could K/F even qualify to go as they have no world standing points or international scores, unless Skate America counted?

 

[gold12345]

I agree with everything you said and you said it better than I could! One question, I know there’s been talk about dropping tech scores for worlds IF they happen, but could K/F even qualify to go as they have no world standing points or international scores, unless Skate America counted?

That's a good question. I read something about modifying the rules to make it fair based on the circumstances, but who knows what that means. Skate America was technically still an ISU event, so shouldn't that count towards the minimums? New pairs/dance teams form every year and it doesn't seem right to require a minimum if you're offering no competitions that can actually count toward that minimum.

To me, the only fair way to do it is to allow the countries to send whichever entries they want in pairs/dance. The ISU is always hoping to get more pairs entries at Worlds, so barring new teams wouldn't be a good idea for the survival and growth of the discipline in general. Shouldn't there at least be some split partner rule. Alexa and Brandon have recent tech minimums, just with other people. And again, they did compete in SA which is technically an ISU event. That should count for something as minor as tech minimums, which they easily surpassed.

 

[moonvine]

I agree with everything you said and you said it better than I could! One question, I know there’s been talk about dropping tech scores for worlds IF they happen, but could K/F even qualify to go as they have no world standing points or international scores, unless Skate America counted?

Skate America is an ISU account and absolutely counts to my knowledge.

 

[ice coverage]

I agree with everything you said and you said it better than I could! One question, I know there’s been talk about dropping tech scores for worlds IF they happen, but could K/F even qualify to go as they have no world standing points or international scores, unless Skate America counted?

That's a good question. I read something about modifying the rules to make it fair based on the circumstances, but who knows what that means. Skate America was technically still an ISU event, so shouldn't that count towards the minimums? New pairs/dance teams form every year and it doesn't seem right to require a minimum if you're offering no competitions that can actually count toward that minimum. ...

To me, the only fair way to do it is to allow the countries who qualified to Worlds to send whichever entries they want in pairs/dance. The ISU is always hoping to get more pairs entries at Worlds, so barring new teams wouldn't be a good idea for the survival and growth of the discipline in general. Shouldn't there at least be some split partner rule. Alexa and Brandon have recent tech minimums, just with other people. And again, they did compete in SA which is technically an ISU event. That should count for something as minor as tech minimums, which they easily surpassed.

Skate America is an ISU account and absolutely counts to my knowledge.

Before the 2020 GPs, the ISU had said that 2020 GP scores would *not* count for TES minimums. For 2020, the ISU waived the normal GP rules requiring international tech panels and international judging panels.

But ... the ISU has said that a decision/announcement regarding TES minimum requirements for 2021 Worlds will be coming (in late January, IIRC).
It is possible that the ISU would make changes to the requirements that have nothing to do with 2020 GPs.
It also remains to be seen whether the ISU would reverse its previous decision not to accept 2020 GPs.

 

[moonvine]

Before the 2020 GPs, the ISU had said that 2020 GP scores would *not* count for TES minimums. For 2020, the ISU waived the normal GP rules requiring international tech panels and international judging panels.

But ... the ISU has said that a decision/announcement regarding TES minimum requirements for 2021 Worlds will be coming (in late January, IIRC).
It is possible that the ISU would make changes to the requirements that have nothing to do with 2020 GPs.
It also remains to be seen whether the ISU would reverse its previous decision not to accept 2020 GPs.

Thank you. Are they accepting results from National competitions? Or is a skater just unable to make tech minimums this year?

 

[ice coverage]

Thank you. Are they accepting results from National competitions? Or is a skater just unable to make tech minimums this year?

Again, the ISU has not yet decided/announced what it is going to do about TES minimum requirements for 2021 Worlds.

After the ISU makes its announcement, I have no doubt that it will be discussed on GS.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

To me, Alexa’s was more of a brush of the free foot and Ashley’s was a clear two foot, either way the tech panel has nothing to do with the GOE for touching the free foot down on a throw, that’s the judges. Hopefully they will all skate lights out tomorrow and make for a GREAT competition!

Sure. As I said, Ash's double-foot was more obvious. I barely noticed Alexa's brush of the foot until it was pointed out in the NBC commentary. That's why I feel overall commentary guidance is helpful (despite being annoyed by some of it).

It's the job of the tech panel to catch those errors and point them out. Did they in both cases? That is what's in question. And then the scores given are at the judges' discretion. As well, K/F will not receive such high GOE internationally with even the slightest of errors on a throw landing. An international judging panel might decide to give that slight brush negative GOE. As a new pair team internationally, K/F will have to build rep. They are ahead of the game obviously, and they will have U.S. fed's full support (for whatever that's worth, which often isn't much since they don't know how to be savvy politically). But K/F need to be realistic and not get padded marks and unrealistic over-confidence. Know what they're good at and understand beyond politics a winning strategy. Also for U.S. fed, a winning strategy for the entire U.S. discipline is supporting your best teams, and not putting all of your eggs in ONE basket.

By getting fully behind all teams and judging fairly, and then promoting the top two teams fully who are selected for Worlds (which may or may not take place), the U.S. will have the best opportunity to get those two highly skilled teams primed to compete confidently and to work toward getting more spots for U.S. pairs teams at Worlds and Olympics, which is necessary to further grow the U.S. discipline!!!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Also, getting on my soapbox:

U.S. fed should stop allowing the casual dissing of U.S. teams regarding jumps. All pairs teams have inconsistency at times with jumps. Some teams are stronger than others on jumps. It's not all U.S. skaters only, despite the cliche snark. Critics need to stop acting as if it's only Jess who has problems on the jumps. Both Brian & Jess need some help with visualizing and with competitive counseling. Enlist Paul Wylie and Charlie White and/or Brian Boitano to help them please.

And let us stop with the fawning over Russian pairs and Russian coaches. Sure acknowledge and benefit from Mozer's assistance, but also recognize the fact that U.S. pairs have a strong legacy historically. We can bet that Rusfed for each of their disciplines is watching and incorporating trends in the sport and adapting for the purposes of furthering the competitive dominance of their own athletes. At the same time, Rusfed will continue to politick effectively and to bask in claiming they are the best of the best, no questions asked. And they back up their swaggering claim. But I wouldn't fall in line or buckle under to it.

Everyone in this sport who is short-sighted and only understand the sport on the basis of what happened five minutes ago, shortchanges the athletes. Everyone who think pairs is only beholden to the Russian legacy shortchanges the sport, the athletes and the pairs discipline as a whole.

I love all of these U.S. teams. That's just how I roll. It's not going to keep me from pointing out what I see. And the need I see is to: SUPPORT ALL OF YOUR TALENT! Nurture all of your skaters. Release those skaters you no longer need or value who may have other opportunities to compete. You hurt U.S. pairs and you hurt the sport itself by a heavy favoritism approach for certain skaters.

Maybe I'm too into it and overthinking a bit, but I've been following the sport for a long time, and I'm frustrated by the antiquated thinking and by the over-hyping and the Mom/Pop cliche approaches. Leadership need to think outside-the-box. I'm not blaming the judges, because the scoring system is not easy to apply. I wouldn't want to be a judge. But more thinking needs to be done along the lines of nurturing skaters and finding more and better ways to help them improve, instead of same-old, same-old defeating approach where everyone is battling for peanuts and slim to no chances to compete at major competitions.

This is the time for the entire sport to rethink everything, instead of always being back on their heels reacting to events and doing the same old things that make a tough sport even more harder to pursue for the skaters who put their hearts out there every day.

 

[SkateTM0102]

It's the job of the tech panel to catch those errors and point them out. Did they in both cases? That is what's in question. And then the scores given are at the judges' discretion. As well, K/F will not receive such high GOE internationally with even the slightest of errors on a throw landing. An international judging panel might decide to give that slight brush negative GOE. As a new pair team internationally, K/F will have to build rep. They are ahead of the game obviously, and they will have U.S. fed's full support (for whatever that's worth, which often isn't much since they don't know how to be savvy politically). But K/F need to be realistic and not get padded marks and unrealistic over-confidence. Know what they're good at and understand beyond politics a winning strategy. Also for U.S. fed, a winning strategy for the entire U.S. discipline is supporting your best teams, and not putting all of your eggs in ONE basket

Just wanted to comment on this, as I'm almost positive that's not the tech panels job. I can't find the official rule but on the USFS website it says
During the performance, the technical specialist identifies each element and the level of difficulty as defined by the International Skating Union.

The quality of the element. is always determined by judges. The tech panel says what the element was, if it was rotated and assigns a level.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Knierim/Frazier are amazing together and get better each time out. It's exciting for the US to have a pair with high quality elements across the board that is also solid, even after just 8 months together. Their twist is big, their throws are big, all of their elements are very strong, which should help keep them calmer in competition. Their confidence should continue to build the more times they compete. There are always things to work on, but I really like where they're headed.

K/F's throw was absolutely a +GOE throw, at any competition. The slight brush of the foot didn't disrupt the flow of throw and was so minor I'm surprised Johnny Weir even mentioned it. It's clear he doesn't know all the rules for pairs scoring/levels. Pairs with huge & explosive throws check enough boxes where they can afford a slight tap down and still get +GOE. Alexa (as well as any other team in the world with huge throws such as Tarasova/Morozov) has always received +GOE for her throws unless the error is egregious. Her throws with Brandon have a similar explosiveness as her throws with Chris. If the judges hammered pairs with huge throws for slight 2-foots, all the pairs would be babying their throws into the air for the sake of a perfect landing, and I doubt the sport wants to go backwards 30 years in that direction.

Calalang/Johnson get great height on their twist, have nice lifts, and skate well together. They are shaky/tense jumpers-- her more than him because she often has underrotation issues. And their somewhat unorthodox throws stop me from saying that have great pair elements across the board. She did throws similarly to this with her old partner (kind of jerky & lacking distance). I'm hoping they make the World team with K/F, as this is likely our only realistic path to attempting to get 3 Olympic spots.

Lu/Mitrofanov were solid in the SP; it's usually their stronger program. Their SBS 3S were strong, but their pair elements aren't as competitive. I would classify a couple of their elements as weak, even when they do them the best they can.

I don't think anyone is out to get Cain/LeDuc. They took the SBS 3Lo out of their SP and are now having issues with the 3S instead. She has underrotated something at every competition. She is tall and it affects elements. Her 2-foot on the throw was a bigger mistake than K/F's; she also regularly lands with her chest down by her knee. Their throw isn't very explosive or far, so they can't afford a 2-foot as much as teams with stronger throws. To be fair, C/J's throws aren't that great either. C/L have some lovely qualities that make them enjoyable, but it's an uphill battle for them. They will skate better than this at times, they just aren't as good with the elements.


Knierim/Frazier earned their lead and shouldn't be held down for being a new team. They're highly established pair skaters with long resumes, especially Alexa. When Volosozhar/Trankov were a brand new pair, they medaled right away in everything and certainly weren't being held down for being new. Alexa used to score 70+ internationally with a missed jump with Chris, so I could see her easily scoring 75+ with Brandon. K/F have gelled quite seamlessly and I think they will score better than the Knierims ever did sooner rather than later. They are not new to the scene as individuals; World level judges definitely know who they are, especially after watching Skate America from afar.

Scores at Nationals tend to skew higher. But K/F truly have world class elements that should score well anywhere. Compare this to Lu/Mitrofanov, who score fine at US Nationals but have gotten lost in the shuffle internationally. Their international PB is very low, in part due to their average at best pair elements. I agree with you that just because L/M skated clean it doesn't mean the score needed to be even higher. It's not just a PCS thing, they're weaker in the non-SBS elements. I think their throws have gotten a bit better but they are still small comparatively.

Olivia & Mervin have very small throws. They may be easier to land that way, but they aren't of good quality, hence the low GOE they receive even if the landing is fine. The point of a throw is to really chuck the girl into the air, not just assist the girl on a solo jump. We of course have singles skating for solo jumps.


I slightly prefer Alexa's twist technique to Jessica's. It's a slightly better aesthetic and more effortless to me. But C/J's twist is a little higher for sure. It took them a couple years to get it that high, whereas K/F just learned theirs together. They had to revamp Brandon's technique and I'm pleasantly surprised by how quickly they're able to do a great and high twist.

Hey nice to have some debate on this. You need to first get my drift that I'm 1000% behind Knierim/Frazier. I even called it back in February 2020 that Brandon was likely the one who would be partnering with Alexa before the official report was announced. I'm thrilled with this team and their talent and their potential. And I'm not surprised either. I followed all the U.S. pairs teams over the summer on Instagram. Ash put together a fun Tik Tok video with the top U.S. teams working on their pairs elements. It was so much fun. That was the first time we got a good but brief look at K/F, and I was immediately blown away. I recognized their sympatico athleticism and synergy immediately, and I said as much (on a different forum).

At the same time, please STOP with the dissing of Jessica and Brian, and especially putting down Jessica. I don't know what their issues are on jumps exactly. If you know better than me, fine. But they both have problems. Jess may have more technique issues than Brian, but they both have shaky nerves. And for the life of them, it seems hard for them to get in a good jumping groove together. Too often Brian is going good and Jess is shaky. Then Jess gets it together more consistently and Brian starts looking nervous, unsure and stumbling and falling. I've seen it with my own eyes last season and this season. The difference is that they had the chance last season to work on things and to strategize jump placement, and they ended up winning Warsaw Cup along with Skate Detroit, and looked good on the GP. By the time they got to U.S. Nationals, everything finally came together for them in the fp like in training practice at their home rink. It was fabulous, and that excellence should not be discounted simply because it's exciting to see the extraordinary potential that K/F have. Of course, C/J have issues on the throws they need to tweak. They pointed it out themselves in interviews. Believe me, Jess is obviously saving those throw landings with a strong back and steely core, as well as with grace and elegance. Her air positions on the lifts are exquisite.

Like I said, I'm all about both C/J and K/F giving the rest of the pairs world a huge run for the medals. It's not a big deal difference in saying one team is slightly better than the other in terms of the twists, because they both are great. Still, the judges have already weighed in, accurately. It's a slight difference: 4s, a 3 and a 5 for K/F vs straight 5s from every judge for C/J. Sure, you can prefer how Alexa looks in the air. I think Alexa looks gorgeous in the air. But be honest, please. Alexa's twist with Brandon is world class, and even at that, it's still a work-in-progress because they are a new team. Alexa's twist with Chris meanwhile was the best, practically the best in the world. They could do a quad twist easily. Alexa & Brandon are still finessing their twist, and the bonus advantage is that they had above average twists and lifts with their former partners. With C/J, it looks like Brian is throwing a feather in the air. C/J's twist happens so quickly and effortlessly, it seems that the stunning quality is being discounted by some fans in favor of obsessing over their weaknesses. I'm not falling into that kind of dissing. I LOVE BOTH TEAMS, and I'm going to be honest as I possibly can about what I see, every time. It's doesn't mean I'm always right or that my view is the last word. I just don't fall into hype and overlooking reality.

You do not have to convince me about K/F's potential. I was one of the first to see it and to call it. Of course, they are even better together than with their former partners. That's obvious. So in fact, are C/J, better together than with their former partners. I hope U.S. fed doesn't blow this abundance.

K/F are working hard and believe me, they know just how strong C/J are. K/F train with them, they are friends with them, and they know it's important to stay ahead of them through hard work. That's a good thing: Allow both teams to continue pushing each other. But stop shortchanging C/J and over-focusing on their weaknesses to the detriment of their strengths and their confidence. That will not help the U.S. pairs discipline in the long run.

BTW, I realize that L/M are a good young team but clearly not world-class superb in twists, lifts, throws, spins. They are continuing to improve. That's what I pointed out in my comments to the poster who thought L/M deserved to be in second ahead of C/J.

I'll address your comments about S/T more later. For now, suffice to say that I know S/T's drawbacks. My point was that S/T, C/H, and M/B are tightly scored because right now not a lot separates these teams with where they are at, aside from Merv and Nate having a ton more experience (Merv having tremendous style and polish which Livia lacks), and C/H lacking a bit of speed, connection and consistency. Therefore, I don't agree with C/H receiving slightly higher PCS in particular than M/B when both teams had a similar error. But that's a minor critique. I just feel like S/T are being a bit low-balled and nitpicked. It happens. For fans not want to admit that it happens, okay.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Just wanted to comment on this, as I'm almost positive that's not the tech panels job. I can't find the official rule but on the USFS website it says
During the performance, the technical specialist identifies each element and the level of difficulty as defined by the International Skating Union.

The quality of the element. is always determined by judges. The tech panel says what the element was, if it was rotated and assigns a level.

I'm not sure what you're saying. The tech panel's job is to look at the elements, not to judge them. I didn't say it was the tech panel's job to judge the elements, but if they notice errors, they are there to highlight those occurrences for the judges to then make their quality judgment. What are you splitting hairs about?

I realize that the tech panel does not get involved in scoring the skaters. I never said that they do.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Another thing I have to say: I'm not into bandwaggoning. I have my favorite teams, but I root for all U.S. pairs teams. I'm excited about seeing K/F's journey unfold. But that doesn't mean looking down on what C/J have accomplished and second-rating or dismissing C/J's extraordinary potential. I don't think that's a winning strategy for the U.S. pairs discipline going forward.

@gold12345 said:
"K/F's throw was absolutely a +GOE throw, at any competition. The slight brush of the foot didn't disrupt the flow of throw and was so minor I'm surprised Johnny Weir even mentioned it. It's clear he doesn't know all the rules for pairs scoring/levels. Pairs with huge & explosive throws check enough boxes where they can afford a slight tap down and still get +GOE."

It's Johnny's job to point out what he sees. Why should he not? It's helpful to viewers. I think his comments are in general fair. As I said, I didn't notice Alexa's brush down, and Ash's double-foot was more obvious. Still, while I don't have a problem with K/F getting high GOE, I don't think it's helpful for U.S. judges to completely overlook a slight brush-down. IMO, +1.20 GOE is rather high, even with the superb air and distance quality. Somewhere around +60 to +70 makes more sense to me, but perhaps it was reduced to +1.20 from +2.20.

In this same vein of not discounting amazing quality because of fixable weaknesses or errors, I disagree with your inference that you have to hold back on acknowledging C/J's strengths because they both have issues on the sbs jumps (despite proving they can land them cleanly when they are calm and focused, and more confident).

@gold12345 said:
"their somewhat unorthodox throws stop me from saying that have great pair elements across the board."

Who said C/J have 'great pair elements across the board'? I've always said they have world class lifts, twists, a magical connection, lovely death spirals, wonderful posture, superb skating skills (their blades are so quiet on the ice) and exceptional speed and ice coverage. They have already pointed out the adjustments they are trying to make on their throws. It's obvious that Brian throws Jess high in the air but without great distance. Jess saves those landings with her core strength and her great back. It's good that she doesn't get lost in the air. Let's remember too that two people are involved in a partnership. None of what happens in performances that C/J need to work on is all Jess's fault.

Too bad if you can't acknowledge C/J's strengths because they are still trying to improve their weaknesses that are the only thing holding them back at this point from being more closely neck-and-neck with K/F. Meanwhile, I didn't see anyone dissing the Knierims because C/J won the fp last year, while Alexa & Chris were okay but underwhelming in their fp. It was the Knierims sp and how it was scored that helped them win Nationals last year. I was happy for both teams, and sad for Haven & Brandon. Now I get to be happy for Alexa & Brandon, while still praising C/J and praying they can conquer the throws and sbs jumps.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I was in this thread while watching the U.S. ladies skate their fps on NBC. I will post in the U.S. ladies thread my viewpoints. Meanwhile, I must say that sadly the overwhelming pressure Mariah felt is a perfect example of what I'm trying to point out about where I have a problem with U.S. fed in terms of 'putting all their eggs in one basket.' I don't think that's necessarily what's happening at the moment regarding K/F being so promoted. But I hope U.S. fed maintains an even keel in supporting all of their pairs teams. I think Brandon & Alexa are experienced and level-headed enough not to get distracted or far ahead of themselves, and to keep the publicity and promotion in perspective by keeping their heads down and working hard.

K/F know how good their training mates are, even if the major focus is on them at the moment. Athletes have to be hungry, determined, confident and humble in the spotlight, and always beware that ice is slippery.

Ash/Timothy were perhaps a bit over-promoted and then dropped, IMO. Let's see how Mariah fares after this Nationals setback.

 

[gold12345]

Before the 2020 GPs, the ISU had said that 2020 GP scores would *not* count for TES minimums. For 2020, the ISU waived the normal GP rules requiring international tech panels and international judging panels.

But ... the ISU has said that a decision/announcement regarding TES minimum requirements for 2021 Worlds will be coming (in late January, IIRC).
It is possible that the ISU would make changes to the requirements that have nothing to do with 2020 GPs.
It also remains to be seen whether the ISU would reverse its previous decision not to accept 2020 GPs.

Yes, at first the ISU said they wouldn't count GPs towards the minimums, but wasn't that before Four Continents got canceled, Europeans got canceled, and literally every other ISU competition except for Worlds was wiped off the schedule? Before the GP series, there was still hope of some international events actually happening.

But now that the entire competition schedule was canceled except for Worlds, it would be rather preposterous to barr a new pairs/dance team from Worlds for not obtaining a minimum when they were give no chances by the ISU to do so. Why punish the skaters when the season has already been almost entirely canceled? I would think the ISU would want the winners of their own GP events at Worlds. That makes sense for the good of the sport from a competitive perspective, a marketing perspective, everything. This is an unprecedented season where they've had to invent and adjust the rules as they go along, and I hope they do the right thing.

If they don't want to count GP scores toward the minimum, any Sr pair with a competitive ISU record should be allowed to enter (based on the number of entries their country has for Worlds). There are very few pairs in the world to begin with. And the tech minimum is so extremely low that GP winners would undoubtedly be able to easily achieve it anywhere under any judging panel. It should be waived for this season for new teams, especially given that Olympic qualification spots are on the line and federations need to have a fair shot at obtaining those spots.