2020-21 US Women's Figure Skating

[ladyjane]

As I understand the new rules, Bradie and Karen earned the US the right to compete for the 3rd spot at Nebelhorn in the Fall. The 3rd spot is not a given, and neither Bradie nor Karen can skate for it. They may have to send Amber or perhaps Alyssa. The new rule is confusing, but it was put in place after the 2018 Olympics and didn't come into play until this World's. The same situation will occur with the Men. If Jason and Nathan total 13 or less, another skater will have to go to Nebelhorn to earn the 3rd spot. It can be Vince. Apparently you have to have 3 skaters qualify to be able to earn the 3rd spot with the combined total of 13. I have no idea why they did this, but they did. But Karen and Bradie did their job and now it's up to a 3rd skater to earn the spot.

Exactly! It doesn't matter who gets sent to Nebelhorn as long as it's not Bradie or Karen. But, whoever it is, that's not a guarantee for being the skater who goes to the OG. If the person who goes to Nebelhorn gets that 3rd spot, it's for the country - not the athlete as such. So, if Amber (for example) would get the spot, she still could be low balled because at Nationals she had bad day(s) and ended 5th.

 

[macy]

i am SO relieved we have 3 spots back. by a *LOT* of luck and the skin of their teeth. i would have been so heartbroken if one of the other deserving US ladies were left off the team due to lack of spots.

Karen absolutely deserves to be on the team and to be in the team competition, we have the 3rd spot because of her. it will be interesting to see how things pan out next year, and if both Karen and Bradie can go back to a consecutive Olympics. If they do, will that be the first time done in US ladies skating?

 

[ramurphy2005]

i am SO relieved we have 3 spots back. by a *LOT* of luck and the skin of their teeth. i would have been so heartbroken if one of the other deserving US ladies were left off the team due to lack of spots.

Karen absolutely deserves to be on the team and to be in the team competition, we have the 3rd spot because of her. it will be interesting to see how things pan out next year, and if both Karen and Bradie can go back to a consecutive Olympics. If they do, will that be the first time done in US ladies skating?

No, Nancy and Tonya....even though we don't really want to open up that can of worms.....

 

[mrrice]

They did last time. Karen didn't exactly do well at the Olympics. Anyway, I do think people should be kind about Bradie. She did well considering she was skating with a broken boot in both programs. Next time, she needs to prepare a backup pair of skates.

Is this a proven fact? It would certainly explain her jump problems.

 

[mrrice]

No, Nancy and Tonya....even though we don't really want to open up that can of worms.....

That was the weird year we had them 1992 and in 1994 instead of 4 years apart.

 

[ramurphy2005]

That was the weird year we had them 1992 and in 1994 instead of 4 years apart.

Yep, I almost added that caveat to my original post.

I know there are some more overlaps in some of the earlier eras of skating, but I couldn't say how many of them were two people per Olympics.

 

[readernick]

Is this a proven fact? It would certainly explain her jump problems.

It's what she said in her interview. She isn't one for excuses so I think you could call that "proven."

 

[Dawn825]

Karen absolutely deserves to be on the team and to be in the team competition, we have the 3rd spot because of her.

Not necessarily. She desrves to be on the Olympic team if she skates well in the Olympic year. If shes 4th at Nationals, she shouldn't bump someone off the team just because she got the third spot. Karen had the skate of the night here, but I think she still has to step up her technical game and consistentcy next year to earn a spot on the team.

 

[readernick]

Not necessarily. She desrves to be on the Olympic team if she skates well in the Olympic year. If shes 4th at Nationals, she shouldn't bump someone off the team just because she got the third spot. Karen had the skate of the night here, but I think she still has to step up her technical game and consistentcy next year to earn a spot on the team.

Yes, her fate is still in the hands of the technical panel. The didn't call all her URs here, but sometimes they do. PCS wise it was one of the best.

 

[bubblecherry]

I always say this, but today especially- Karen is the best ladies skater the US has to offer. She’s one of the best in the world (4th, but who’s counting ) the quality cannot be denied.

I’ll also say her PE/IN/CO was a class above the entire Worlds field. And that speed. Those beautiful arms. She’s amazing.

 

[bubblecherry]

Not necessarily. She desrves to be on the Olympic team if she skates well in the Olympic year. If shes 4th at Nationals, she shouldn't bump someone off the team just because she got the third spot. Karen had the skate of the night here, but I think she still has to step up her technical game and consistentcy next year to earn a spot on the team.

Well, I think this is a case where ‘body of work’ actually holds a lot of weight. If she can skate relatively consistently with the same layout or an upgrade, and her competitors are doing the same, then this 4th place finish at Worlds should absolutely play a role in deciding spots. There’s no bigger stage that she could’ve delivered on. This is the best result from a US lady of this Olympic cycle. Also, international judges reward her skating somewhat. Moreso than many others, deservedly so, despite her past consistency issues.

All of these things will be taken into consideration. Of course, next season actually has to happen, and everyone will need to skate pretty well, that’s a given. However, I think Karen has set herself up so well going into next season. This is a huge victory for her.

 

[jaylee]

Well, I think this is a case where ‘body of work’ actually holds a lot of weight. If she can skate relatively consistently with the same layout or an upgrade, and her competitors are doing the same, then this 4th place finish at Worlds should absolutely play a role in deciding spots. There’s no bigger stage that she could’ve delivered on. This is the best result from a US lady of this Olympic cycle. Also, international judges reward her skating somewhat. Moreso than many others, deservedly so, despite her past consistency issues.

All of these things will be taken into consideration. Of course, next season actually has to happen, and everyone will need to skate pretty well, that’s a given. However, I think Karen has set herself up so well going into next season. This is a huge victory for her.

Agreed.

I always thought that the Shibutanis locked up their 2018 Olympic spot--and the top choice for the team event--at 2017 Worlds by performing well at a pressure-packed competition -- when the other US teams faltered majorly. They earned a lot of trust by performing well under that pressure, proving they were the best bet for the US at the 2018 Olympics in the team event and the individual event. And that's exactly how it played out. They skated well enough at 2018 US Nationals to solidify their spot, but even though they didn't win, they were given the team event, presumably based on body of work. And that was the right call, because H/D still hadn't figured out how to skate well under the pressure of winning their first big international medal (they have since then, fortunately). And the rest, of course, is history--two bronze medals for the Shibutanis.

So here's hoping that Karen's body of work will be considered for both the Olympic team and the team event. I am pretty confident in her though -- she looks like she's got a fire lit within her again, and I think she can really build on this.

 

[Jammers]

Agreed.

I always thought that the Shibutanis locked up their 2018 Olympic spot--and the top choice for the team event--at 2017 Worlds by performing well at a pressure-packed competition -- when the other US teams faltered majorly. They earned a lot of trust by performing well under that pressure, proving they were the best bet for the US at the 2018 Olympics in the team event and the individual event. And that's exactly how it played out. They skated well enough at 2018 US Nationals to solidify their spot, but even though they didn't win, they were given the team event, presumably based on body of work. And that was the right call, because H/D still hadn't figured out how to skate well under the pressure of winning their first big international medal (they have since then, fortunately). And the rest, of course, is history--two bronze medals for the Shibutanis.

So here's hoping that Karen's body of work will be considered for both the Olympic team and the team event. I am pretty confident in her though -- she looks like she's got a fire lit within her again, and I think she can really build on this.

I don't think you can compared the Shibs to Karen when it comes to body of work. The Shibs were consistently winning medals for the whole Olympic cycle including 2 World medals and making every GP final heading into the 2018 Olympics. Karen on the other hand has not done well internationally and has never came close to winning medals at big competitions like the GP or 4CC or even Senior B events. Yes she has a couple of 4th place finishes at Worlds when other skaters crashed and burned but that's not enough to pick her over someone else. Also it blows my mind that she's not doing a 3-3 in the LP she has to get that back this isn't 1988.

 

[Dawn825]

I guess Karen is looking a bit like Jason Brown right. Class of the field but the artistic mark has only ever been half of the score.

 

[jaylee]

I don't think you can compared the Shibs to Karen when it comes to body of work. The Shibs were consistently winning medals for the whole Olympic cycle including 2 World medals and making every GP final heading into the 2018 Olympics. Karen on the other hand has not done well internationally and has never came close to winning medals at big competitions like the GP or 4CC or even Senior B events. Yes she has a couple of 4th place finishes at Worlds when other skaters crashed and burned but that's not enough to pick her over someone else. Also it blows my mind that she's not doing a 3-3 in the LP she has to get that back this isn't 1988.

My point really revolves around how each did at their pre-Olympic Worlds. Of course Karen/Shibs' body of work is not identical to each other, but you also have to look at their body of work compared to their competitors. Karen didn't get any world medals this cycle, but neither did any US lady. And yeah, the Shibs won a bunch of medals, but so did their US competitors, i.e. Chock and Bates, who defeated them quite a bit in 2014-2015 (2017 Worlds could've easily gone to H/D -- but the Shibs were the only ones to deliver, which proved to be a good sign for the Olympics).

Yeah, Bradie has more international medals (4CCS and GP) and made more GPFs. But Karen's world placements are better. And yeah I think that counts for a lot when you look at making the US Olympic team and who skates in the team event. To be clear, I'm not against Bradie making the Olympic team and skating in the team event either! They probably both have it locked up, as long as they show up healthy at next nationals. I just think Karen really showed she deserves that spot too by delivering here, just as the Shibs did in 2017.

 

[bubblecherry]

Yes she has a couple of 4th place finishes at Worlds when other skaters crashed and burned but that's not enough to pick her over someone else. Also it blows my mind that she's not doing a 3-3 in the LP she has to get that back this isn't 1988.

You can downplay both of her 4th place finishes at Worlds by saying others crashed a burned, but other ladies like Bradie and Mariah, have never been able to take advantage of an opportunity like Karen did. That’s the point. This is the absolute best result from a US lady this Olympic cycle. No one can take that away from her.

She’s also played it smart by not adding an unstable 3-3 into her LP this season. She consistently delivered what she needed this season. She ended the season being the top American lady, and 4th in the World, regardless of a lack of 3-3s. She’s done a similar layout with a solid 3Lzeu3s, and her 2A3T is very nice, so there are chances to upgrade to 7 triples next season. Luckily, she played it smart, went with consistency, and it worked out for her.

 

[ramurphy2005]

Hmmmm ... 'tis mysterious that the article was changed.
Thanks for pointing it out.

FWIW: I just re-checked the ISU site, and Version 1.0 (from Dec 2019) of the "Qualification System" document for Beijing 2022 still is there, with the extra wrinkle for 2022 still indicated on page 3 (emphasis not added):

From: "D.1 Qualification through the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021"​

​

"NOCs, who through their ISU Members Nation, have earned the necessary points according to Rule 378, paragraph 2b) and c) will have the right for two (2) or three (3) entries, only if, in addition, they had two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters/Pairs/Couples qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance in the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 (ISU Rule 400, paragraph 3)."​

​

From: "D.2 Qualification through the Senior International Qualification Competition designated by the ISU"​

​

In the explanation of which federations are eligible to compete for an OWG spot via Nebelhorn:​

​

"NOCs which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021. This quota place will be in addition to the quota place(s) that the NOC had earned in D.1. These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021."​

​

https://isu.org/docman-documents-links-2/2022-beijing/qualification-systems-3/22994-figure-skating-v1-0/file

Link above is from:

Beijing 2022 - International Skating Union

PyeongChang 2018 Olympic Winter Games will take place from February 9 - 25 2018.

isu.org

Just saw this comment on Twitter from Lynn Rutherford, and she mentions why she took it out.

Been going back & forth on this with an ISU rep, someone involved w/Nebelhorn & Phil all week. What it highlights is how poorly written ISU communications can be at times. I thought I had it down cold, with a source, published it & then removed it. Turns out it was right (maybe).

https://mobile.twitter.com/LynnRutherford/status/1375959004342542337

 

[Amei]

I don't think you can compared the Shibs to Karen when it comes to body of work. The Shibs were consistently winning medals for the whole Olympic cycle including 2 World medals and making every GP final heading into the 2018 Olympics. Karen on the other hand has not done well internationally and has never came close to winning medals at big competitions like the GP or 4CC or even Senior B events. Yes she has a couple of 4th place finishes at Worlds when other skaters crashed and burned but that's not enough to pick her over someone else. Also it blows my mind that she's not doing a 3-3 in the LP she has to get that back this isn't 1988.

I get that Karen's body of work isn't exactly stellar, but who goes instead of her?
- Mariah Bell, a lovely performer but she doesn't have a great track record of doing well in big competitions
- Amber Glenn, not a well known international name and doesn't exactly have a record of good results of the competitions she's gone to

Also it blows my mind that she's not doing a 3-3 in the LP she has to get that back this isn't 1988.

Well in terms of international skates, yes she definitely needs to get a triple-triple in the FS, for US team selection however she's not alone, look at some of the FS protocols for nationals or skate America this past year, very few triple-triples were done by the US ladies

 

[readernick]

[

I don't think you can compared the Shibs to Karen when it comes to body of work. The Shibs were consistently winning medals for the whole Olympic cycle including 2 World medals and making every GP final heading into the 2018 Olympics. Karen on the other hand has not done well internationally and has never came close to winning medals at big competitions like the GP or 4CC or even Senior B events. Yes she has a couple of 4th place finishes at Worlds when other skaters crashed and burned but that's not enough to pick her over someone else. Also it blows my mind that she's not doing a 3-3 in the LP she has to get that back this isn't 1988.

Yes, there is no comparison. They were medal contenders Karen was great here but her score was essentially the same as her score at 4CC last year. ( I like this LP much better and would have given it higher PCS but the TES in both events was correct and perhaps even generous) 206/207 is pretty much her personal max. At 4CC she came in 7th place ( and Mariah who based on the way she was scored last year would have been in front of her wasn't even there), Bradie's score was 20 points higher. Add on the Russian ladies and she would have been 11th/12th at Worlds? Which is not exactly impressive, I like Karen and that LP is really artistically impressive. ( My favorite program ever for her by a mile) . But, I don't think her "spot" should be guaranteed. ( US fed loves her though so they probably agree with her fans here) Let's see how everyone skates next year, Alysa, Mariah, Bradie and Amber have higher score ceilings. If they consistently outskate her next year, I would send the three best. Although, if the Olympics games end up being a fall fest, Karen might have her greatest skate ever. She skates well when others don't, although the opposite is also often true.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I'm very interested in seeing how Karen responds to this 4th place finish cause combined with the nationals bronze the expectations will start coming again just as she had previously. Four years ago she was a national champion and 4th at worlds only to immediately falter and not live up to any of the promise. She's four years older now and after all the struggles surely has a difference perspective on everything so hopefully the 2021-22 season will be better then the 2017-18 season was.

But she really does need to get a 3-3, even if it is the easiest one. She would have won a medal here if she had one. She's lucky the chip fell her way cause no attempted 3-3 at all and finishing 4th was a miracle. She can't count on that happening again even if it technically could.