Sasha, Michelle, Irina

[yelyoh]

That was the old Michelle.

The new Michelle, when she comes back for the 2010 Olympics, will be twice as fast.

I also heard a rumor over on the MK Forum that she is working on a 3A/4T/3Lo combo ( = 21.5 base points + 10% second half bonus + 3 GOE = 26.5 ).

Touche. LOL.

 

[Fossi]

I love your photo McWicked! Hilarious and cute!!!!!!!!

 

[fairly4]

sure they supported michelle, that is why they allowed the media to criticized michelle age (too old, too young, not good enough, to much weight, )
skating technique, low jumps, not enough artistry.
tara barely touched on the flutzed. the only time media wanted to know when she lost nationals (two weeks into hiding).
olympics-they allowed media to make fun of michelle at hotel, made fun of her being close to family, the media watched all of michell'e practices, barely tara's even though she was there. 2002 olympics saw all of michelles, allowed sarah to stay and skate somewhere else, sasha helped keep media at bay with phone.
she stayed and skated somewhere else.
they dug up grandfather rule to allow tara to skate before she is legitimately able.
they help tanith with citizenship, was thinking about the same thing with gorsha sur (renee roca's)dance partner.
the media did we hear of sasha underrotating , double footing, sarahs skating technque issues -no.
tara jumped low and underrotated and overrotated, flutz her jump.did we know hardly, when brought up. they made sure michelle did the same (she didn't)

pros personnally dislike michelle probably not, but all you need to do is read their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice when talking about michelle versus the other skaters to realize they aren't being as truthful as they words that come out of their mouth/
also the usfsa allowed the media to think the pro-am was started for michelle, it was for tara (to keep her amateur). the media finally got it straight in 2006.
the usfsa allowed michelle to be blame for alot of things or implied it was her fault. yes, now the back her, back than not to sure.

 

[zephyrskates]

sure they supported michelle, that is why they allowed the media to criticized michelle age (too old, too young, not good enough, to much weight, )
skating technique, low jumps, not enough artistry.
tara barely touched on the flutzed. the only time media wanted to know when she lost nationals (two weeks into hiding).
olympics-they allowed media to make fun of michelle at hotel, made fun of her being close to family, the media watched all of michell'e practices, barely tara's even though she was there. 2002 olympics saw all of michelles, allowed sarah to stay and skate somewhere else, sasha helped keep media at bay with phone.
she stayed and skated somewhere else.
they dug up grandfather rule to allow tara to skate before she is legitimately able.
they help tanith with citizenship, was thinking about the same thing with gorsha sur (renee roca's)dance partner.
the media did we hear of sasha underrotating , double footing, sarahs skating technque issues -no.
tara jumped low and underrotated and overrotated, flutz her jump.did we know hardly, when brought up. they made sure michelle did the same (she didn't)

pros personnally dislike michelle probably not, but all you need to do is read their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice when talking about michelle versus the other skaters to realize they aren't being as truthful as they words that come out of their mouth/
also the usfsa allowed the media to think the pro-am was started for michelle, it was for tara (to keep her amateur). the media finally got it straight in 2006.
the usfsa allowed michelle to be blame for alot of things or implied it was her fault. yes, now the back her, back than not to sure.

i think you are reading too much in to it. how can 'the most decorated skater in US history' not be backed up by the USFSA?

 

[dogwood]

Fairly4
Obviously you hate the USFSA and pro skaters. You said the same thing in the "Skate Bored" thread. I am a huge Michelle Kwan fan and would defend her to the hilt. I am also very familiar with most everything that has been written and said about her. That said, you are completely off base. And as much as I love Michelle and her skating, it is simply wrong to malign other fine people for not worshiping her in the manner you want them to. I'd also hate to think someone would read what you wrote and believe any of it.

behind the scenes (USFSA, pros-tara, nancy, brian, scott didn't) they didn't like she upstage them or had the publics backing.

This is completely absurd. I have never heard Scott say anything negative about Michelle. Why would he? But maybe in the process of fighting cancer and a brain tumor he lost focus about what he should really be caring about – Michelle Kwan. Tara? Tara only skated as a pro for 4 years. She hasn’t been involved in skating for 5 years. Why would she care about Michelle’s popularity? She was busy skating from 98-02 and dealing with some serious injuries, so I can forgive her if she didn’t have time to be Michelle’s publicist. And the press really didn’t ask Tara for comments too often. What did you want her to do? Call a press conference and announce her support for Michelle? Same with Nancy. She knows she's not as popular as Michelle Kwan, and I doubt she cares. She has kids to raise, so I imagine that's her #1 priority. And Brian – that’s the most absurd of all. He’s been clear that he can’t even be objective when it comes to Michelle because he loves her too much. She grew up on the Collins tour and he was a mentor to her. I remember during the 2006 Olympics Brian was getting flack on various boards from Sasha fans because he picked Michelle as his favorite to win and admitted he was going with his heart. Sasha fans didn’t like it, and just like you, read into it something that wasn’t there. Interpreting it to mean he didn’t like Sasha. Read Christine’s Brennan’s books if you want to know about the mutual admiration society between Michelle and Brian.

most of the old pros hinted about money and the fact she was popular they didn't like. that she was too popular including the usfsa didn't like it.

News flash! The “old pros” you are talking about are plenty rich. And they are also grown-ups. I doubt in the last 5 or 6 years as they started skating less and less and in the case of Hamilton retiring altogether, they spent any time worrying that Michelle was too popular. They know that there’s room in skating for many to be popular. And as Mathman said, they really wanted her to join their ranks and bring that popularity with her. These people actually have lives and I’m pretty sure they don’t spend as much time analyzing skating as fans do. And that includes Michelle Kwan.

sure they supported michelle, that is why they allowed the media to criticized michelle age (too old, too young, not good enough, to much weight, )

You must think these people have an incredible amount of power. They “allowed the media to criticize”??? They have no power over what the media does. My guess is most of these famous skaters don’t pay much attention to all the media. It’s a survival tactic. Expecting these people to pour through every article written about Michelle and watch every performance and then come to her defense every time she was criticized (which wasn’t often, I might add) suggests that you think they are supposed to be as obsessed with her as some of her fans are. Nothing that was ever written or said about Michelle ever hurt her popularity, so why would the “old pros”, or the USFSA for that matter, need to defend her anyway? Hamilton and Boitano got off easy with the press, but Nancy, Tara and Oksana were scrutinized and really bashed at times. Did Michelle come to their defense? No. And I wouldn’t expect her to. Most of these skaters are too smart to get involved in all that nonsense.

pros personnally dislike michelle probably not, but all you need to do is read their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice when talking about michelle versus the other skaters to realize they aren't being as truthful as they words that come out of their mouth/

Oh come on! When you can’t come up with anything these people have actually said against Michelle, you resort to saying it’s in the body language. You can’t be serious. And as far as the USFSA goes, they really hate it when eligible skaters are popular. It’s so bad for business, you know. They like it when the seats are half empty and everyone has more leg room. So what if you can’t pay the bills. In what universe could this possibly make sense? First and foremost skating is a business, and that is what the Federation spends most of its time worrying about. Secondly, when they have two skaters at the top such as Michelle and Tara, Michelle and Sasha or Johnny and Evan, they are caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what they do or say it will never be good enough to please the hard core fans who love one and hate the other.

I think its fine to be a fan of a particular skater and I don’t mind reading gush-fests. I think it’s disturbing however when fans think they are supporting their favorite by bashing others. What this all about is that with "ubber" fans there just isn't enough attention that can be paid to their favorite. It's not enough that fans love them. They must love them to the exculsion of all others. They must hate all other skaters who even dare to have a fan base of their own. They think every skater should retire, shut up or go away because they are getting attention that rightly belongs to their favorite. Michelle is a fine young woman with great character and integrity. The people you accuse of conspiring against Michelle are also fine people with good character. I can defend them without saying a single bad word about Michelle Kwan.

 

[sillylionlove]

Well said

 

[Kypma]

Very well,said, dogwood!!

Kypma

 

[fairly4]

actually Dogwood, a lot can be decided on body language, facial expressions, tone of voice.
Why if you work, ask people at work, ask your boss, supervisor if they judge you also on your tone of voice, body language, facial expressions.
you might be surprised.
You can tell alot about people when doing that. How do you think the police, fbi, security through airports,
They read the peoples body language, facial expressions and etc.
you would be surprised at how much of your life, friends etc reads your body language, facial expressions to know if you are having a good day or bad day without saying a word.
i could malign you even further.
where you live the papers may not have said that stuff, but pull of some of the old blade issues from 1998 on and note the difference in writing about mistakes .
i don't have the time to quote them all, right now.
i could really be mean, but i won't . if you don't want to know the truth, fine it is your and the usfsa loss.
unless your arepersonnally one of the pro skaters (like bria
n, scott , tara, peggy , dick etc).than i don't have to believe you either.
The usfsa might have not malign michelle personally, but they didn't stop the papers, magazines from maligning michelle either. which I believe they should have since they didn't allow the maligning for other skaters.
i know what the papers, magazine said about michelle and pros where i live . i don't know if they said the same thing where you live.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think you posters should look more to Mens, Pairs and Ice Dance. Leave the Ladies alone and especially Sasha, Michelle and Irina. They are gone, praise to be!

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

Now, back on topic... I think Michelle and Irina would do well to move on to other things. Not because that means their has beens, or any such thing! far from it! It's just that they grew up under a different system and saw their best results under that system. They'd have to retrain everything and while Irina was able to manage under teh system, Michelle was plagued by injuries which many believe was due to the fact that she was trying to up her difficulty to keep up with the CoP.

Sasha really learned how to max out her points with the system and held her own because of it even when she had bad skates. I think she could definitely stay competitive on the GP and National circuit, and possibly even Worlds... BUT! going up against Mao and Yuna she would have to be completely perfect and maybe the other girls had a rough night or popped a few of their bigger jumps (the triple axels, the triple triples, etc)

Irina had the technical aspect of it, but she's not as good, to me, with the GOE or just choreography in general, though she has more presenation than any of the others IMHO. She really sells a program. But with a child and her immune disease I think it best if she take it a bit easier and maybe just stick to shows.

 

[Andalusia]

I'd love nothing more than that, but sadly, I think Michelle's not fast enough these days. She'd be lucky to get 7's. She would (or should) lose big on skating skills and transitions, and those might drag down the other three scores too.

I don't understand this spiel about Michelle being slow. She was a speed demon in her 'Red Violin' 2000 Worlds LP. She could be fast and a little slower if needed. No one could be slower than Caroline is right now, and the latter is doing just fine.

And I don't buy that she wouldn't be able to up the ante on her spins, if her body is willing, that is. Tarasova said that Michelle could do anything she wanted her to do (save the Biellmann) when choreographing her 2006 programs. Also, Michelle had technically sound jumps that just landed like butter. All this bitching about her jumps has always made no sense to me. There have been reports far and wide of her landing 3-3 combos other than a 3T-3T, so it's not like she could not ever do them.

Kimmie does not have super-bendy spins and spirals (I'm sure MK could far outclass her in those departments if she wanted to), and she still does fine when she lands her awful 3-3s. If her body is willing and her competitive spirit is still intact, I wouldn't put anything past Michelle. 3A, my foot. Until Mao performs the jump consistently and doesn't always two-foot it when she does do it, I don't consider that any lady has a 3A right now. If Michelle can get a 3F-3T consistent, for example, I think she could contend with the top ladies these days.

Whew! Sorry for my Kwaniac rant.

 

[oleada]

And I don't buy that she wouldn't be able to up the ante on her spins, if her body is willing, that is. Tarasova said that Michelle could do anything she wanted her to do (save the Biellmann) when choreographing her 2006 programs. Also, Michelle had technically sound jumps that just landed like butter. All this bitching about her jumps has always made no sense to me. There have been reports far and wide of her landing 3-3 combos other than a 3T-3T, so it's not like she could not ever do them.

Except she never landed it in competition and never attempted one (I might be wrong on this one, though). Michelle has a 3F-3T just like Johnny has a quad. It's one thing to land a jump in practice and another to land in under the pressure of competition.

I think it's pretty obvious that none of these ladies are coming back, though.

 

[Andalusia]

Except she never landed it in competition and never attempted one (I might be wrong on this one, though). Michelle has a 3F-3T just like Johnny has a quad. It's one thing to land a jump in practice and another to land in under the pressure of competition.

I think it's pretty obvious that none of these ladies are coming back, though.

You're right. I just wanted to dispell the notion that Michelle somehow was incapable of landing 3-3 combos other than a 3T-3T; that she just couldn't do them in either practice or competition. One thing that Michelle can be criticized for is that she played it safe; she never put anything out in her programs that she didn't feel completely safe with. She never put anything on the line, save her heart for skating, to borrow Dick's words. If she had been training the harder 3-3 combos since the beginning, who knows if she would have been able to land them in competition. However, Irina managed to learn the harder triples-triples at a relatively late age, so that gives me some hope that Michelle could get them consistent, if her body is healthy enough. I think she probably knows that she would have to have one of the harder 3-3 combos if she wanted to make a return and be competitive with the top ladies. And if Michelle is anything, she is definitely competitive.

Ah, all these ifs, ifs, ifs. I, too, have major doubts that either one of these three ladies will ever make a comeback, but one can dream (for me, only in Michelle's case, though).

 

[hockeyfan228]

Kwan's jumps were relatively small, without much height, especially when compared to the powerful jumps that Volchkova, Slutskaya, and Sokolova, for example, did. Among the current top skaters, Kostner generally gets good distance on her 3Flip in combination, Asada and Kim get nice spring and good height, and often good distance. Sebestyen gets remarkable spring on her jumps; she's lost her ability to land them.

What set Kwan apart from most was consistency in landing the jumps, and in having beautiful form in her other elements. Slutskaya had jump consistency many years, and in those years she was competitive with and sometimes beat Kwan.

Early on, she did many transitions, but her spins and footwork were low-level by CoP standards. It doesn't matter that Kwan could do everything that Tarasova gave her while choreographing. She never did a high-level, end-to-end CoP-friendly program in her career: She never landed seven jump passes, with two, two-jump combinations and one three-jump combination at the same time she performed four L3-4 spins, one L3-4 spiral sequence, and one L3-4 footwork sequence. That puts Tarasova's dream program in the same place as her other 3/3's and Weir's 4/3's: on the practice ice.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't understand this spiel about Michelle being slow. She was a speed demon in her 'Red Violin' 2000 Worlds LP. She could be fast and a little slower if needed. No one could be slower than Caroline is right now, and the latter is doing just fine.

And I don't buy that she wouldn't be able to up the ante on her spins, if her body is willing, that is. Tarasova said that Michelle could do anything she wanted her to do (save the Biellmann) when choreographing her 2006 programs. Also, Michelle had technically sound jumps that just landed like butter. All this bitching about her jumps has always made no sense to me. There have been reports far and wide of her landing 3-3 combos other than a 3T-3T, so it's not like she could not ever do them.

Kimmie does not have super-bendy spins and spirals (I'm sure MK could far outclass her in those departments if she wanted to), and she still does fine when she lands her awful 3-3s. If her body is willing and her competitive spirit is still intact, I wouldn't put anything past Michelle. 3A, my foot. Until Mao performs the jump consistently and doesn't always two-foot it when she does do it, I don't consider that any lady has a 3A right now. If Michelle can get a 3F-3T consistent, for example, I think she could contend with the top ladies these days.

Whew! Sorry for my Kwaniac rant.

I wouldn't fret over it. Those posters are pushing the new era skaters and they don't want the fan competition of MK. Has anyone ever defined the amount of speed there should be without variation? BTW, speed is not specific in the component definitions. When they clock the skaters as in speed skating then I will take more notice. Until then, I will just enjoy beautiful skating.

Joe

 

[dogwood]

One thing that Michelle can be criticized for is that she played it safe; she never put anything out in her programs that she didn't feel completely safe with. .

I disagree completely. I don't think Michelle can be criticized for playing it safe. All of the great and consistent skaters played it safe. Before the CoP the top skaters didn't go out and perform elements that they could only hope to complete 50% of the time, There was no advantage in that. If a female skater had a 3f/3t and could land it successfully most of the time, then she was also playing it safe. Kurt Browning landed the first quad at the World Championships in 1988 when he wasn't in contention for a medal. But did he include that jump in subsequent years when he was World Champion? No, because he didn't have to, and it wasn't a consistent enough jump to make the risk worthwhile. We didn't really start seeing quads until the skaters had them under their belts. And most of these men came after the elimination of compulsory figures. It was harder to get difficult jumps consistent when you were spending half of your time training figures. All skaters are different, both limited and gifted by their physicality. What is risky and difficult for one, may be safe for another, and vice versa. It's all relative. That's why programs looked different from one another pre-CoP. Skaters showcased the difficult moves that were safe for them. Today, all skaters do the same elements at the highest level possible and only rarely skate clean. Stephane Lambiel fell three times in the long program at the Cup of China and still won a medal. We see this all the time. No one seems to be able to put together a season of fine performances, it's all a crap shoot now.

Michelle Kwan did exactly what all the great champions,both male and female, before her did. She showcased the things she could do better than anyone else. She was consistent. She was confident. I feel sorry for the skaters under this system. It must be demoralizing to have to skate in competition week after week knowing you only have a 50% chance of staying vertical. It certainly doesn't build confidence and it doesn't expand the fan base.

 

[gkelly]

I doubt that Kwan or Slutskaya in their late 20s (or Slutskaya at 30), or even Cohen in her mid-20s, after having taken several years off from training, will be capable of the same technical difficulty that they were at their peak. Meanwhile, some of the best younger ladies have passed them by technically and will be that much more mature in another year or two.

We already know how well Cohen and Slutskaya could cope with the new judging system, which was just fine, thank you.

I'm sure that if it had been introduced earlier in Kwan's career when she was younger and healthier, she would have done just fine as well. When she was just better than the other skaters at enough of the basic skating and presentation qualities, she would have earned higher PCS. And she would have found ways to develop new skills or highlight those she already possessed to earn higher levels in the non-jump elements. 3T-3T would do just fine for getting 7 triples worth of jump points in the LP, and maybe she would have done 3T-3T and solo 3Lz in the SP.

 

[sillylionlove]

Is it just me or do the days of Irina and Michelle seem like the "good old days"???
Boy I sure miss those days!



hwell:

 

[Mathman]

About speed, I agree with Joe that it is the control of speed and the variation of speed in relation to the music that is important.

Irina Slutskaya and Shizuka Arakawa were impressive because they could accelerate so quickly, with just a couple of strokes.

 

[gkelly]

Irina Slutskaya and Shizuka Arakawa were impressive because they could accelerate so quickly, with just a couple of stokes.

Also a strength of Urmanov and Kulik.