2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 372 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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What? They are making Valieva skate twice. No substitutions. That is so sad. I was counting on seeing Anna tonight and really thought she deserved a share of this gold medal and it is not like she wouldn’t have gotten the ten points for ROC. But, instead, I get Bolero. Yipppeee 🙄. I like how the Americans distribute their silver medal and the Japanese shared their bronze medal. That is a team effort. If Karen Chen placed 3rd and Nathan skated and won the free skate portion, I’d understand them not making any substitutions. But, USA shared the wealth and RUS is guaranteed a gold medal with substitutions. Why not allow others to get a medal. The more the merrier. I’m upset by this decision.
Oh did they sub in Mariah ? I get the appeal in doing it. I think though the Russian girls can pull through and go 1,2,and 3.
 
Oh did they sub in Mariah ? I get the appeal in doing it. I think though the Russian girls can pull through and go 1,2,and 3.

No, Karen will skate the Ladies FS, but that's because they substituted Vincent for Nathan and Chock/Bates for Hubbell/Donohue. Russia I think is the only country doing absolutely no substitutions
 
About the pre-rotations.

Very interesting explanation by swedish coach Cecilia Willberg who is commentating on Eurosport. She said there is nothing wrong with this technique. You get the rotation faster, BUT, it also makes the jump much harder to land as you need to get your right shoulder back, and checking the landing gets more difficult.

As an opposite example she had Karen Chen, who has very high jumps, but only rotates on her way down which makes her UR.
Doesn't this actually make more of an argument for pre-rotation to be punished? 🙈 A skater who pre-rotates 90° and under-rotates by 90° and a skater who pre-rotates 180° but then lands without any under-rotation rotate the same amount of the jump in the air - But only one will currently get punished. Especially because judges aren't allowed to watch the take-off in slow-motion, but are allowed to watch the landing. (Which explains why the clause "A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump." doesn't seem to come into effect very often.)
 
I suppose, though, the point could be made that Kamila's take-off is not a bad one according to the current rules, so there would be no reason to cap the GOE. The judges do have to judge according to the rule book, and the rule book does not penalise a take-off that makes use of rotation of the ice, or the skater transferring their weight back along the blade of the picking foot as they rotate, which Dolfini also critiques in that really interesting and informative video. Thank you for linking to it!

Now, going very very off topic from Russian women - one of the things I do wonder about, though, is the use of slow motion. Dolfini [edit: or maybe it was Ambesi?] says that the technical panel has the tools to evaluate jumps with the precision that he shows in that video, but the rule book again explicitly states that their review of the take-off must be conducted at real time speed, not slowed down. So while the technology exists, it isn't allowed under the current rules.

I also have a somewhat different take, I admit, which is shaped by my equestrian background. No judges in any of the equestrian sports I am familiar with may make use of slow motion: they have to judge what is before them, in real time - and no replays allowed either. (Maybe polo and horseball are different, I don't know.) Slow motion footage, however, is obviously widely available, and is used by people wanting to look at technique, improve safety on obstacles, etc. One controversy that slow motion footage brought about was the fact that the canter pirouette, long considered to be a three beat motion (beat referring to footfalls), was shown to be a four beat movement instead. This led to acrimony in dressage, with people claiming that the four beat pirouettes were wrong and shouldn't be getting the marks they were. In the end, scientific research showed that a three beat canter pirouette is pretty much impossible, because of the mechanics of the movement.

So, to me, it strikes me that slow motion is useful at revealing the biomechanics of an action, but it doesn't have to be the be all and end all for judging the accuracy of it. Obviously, there are skaters who are capable of a more textbook take-off than others, re rotation, so it's not quite the same as the three vs four beat canter pirouette debate, but ... there's something else I have noticed and am curious about, not being a skater myself. Jumps with fewer rotations seem to be more likely to have delayed rotation - thinking about the big single axels people have shared on older videos of skaters here in the past - while jumps with more rotations seem to be more likely to have this on-ice rotation at the start, and the skaters certainly have to snap into tighter positions in the air. Which leads me to wonder if pre-rotation is not simply a natural part of getting the body to whip around the required number of times, between initiating take-off and landing the jump. No expert here, just an idle speculator.

(Again, I have an equestrian analogy, which may be accurate, or may be awful, but it is the development of the Caprilli seat in jumping; up until the early twentieth century, riders used to sit back over jumps, with their feet out in front of them, until Federico Caprilli found that a forward seat, with the rider coming up out of the saddle, made it easier for the horse to jump. Some horses and riders could still jump ridiculous heights with the pre-Caprilli seat, but the Caprilli seat was biomechanically easier for horse and rider, and made it easier for more horses to jump higher heights. So, again, that colours my perception of pre-rotation: is it bad, or is it just biomechanically more efficient? Not a skater, not a coach, I do not know the answer.)
I'm loving the equestrian analogies, please keep them coming! I find it very interesting how other judges sports deal with similar contentious issues that we're seeing in figure skating and whether it'd be possible for the ISU to adopt some of their strategies.

You mention that scientific research eventually showed that the three beat canter pirouette was physically impossible. It would be amazing if we could get more research into figure skating biomechanics but what we do have widely available is video evidence of other skaters being able to do these jumps with minimal pre-rotation.

Regarding your second analogy, I have often seen the argument that the sport should converge towards the most efficient technique for executing an element, which I think is a fair argument. However, for the current state of figure skating, the sport awards a different amount of points according to the technique of the jump takeoff and not just the number of rotations. Therefore, it is unfair if some skaters are awarded top points for a jump that does not resemble the takeoff that they say they're doing. Personally, I'm all for adding new types of jumps with their own base value but perhaps another way to resolve the issue is to not care about the jump types and give all of them the same base value. (Note that ISU did try to make this change at the start of last season by making flips, lutzes and loops have the same BV but went back on it. It also seemed to be an unpopular change judging by the reactions on social media.)
 
No, Karen will skate the Ladies FS, but that's because they substituted Vincent for Nathan and Chock/Bates for Hubbell/Donohue. Russia I think is the only country doing absolutely no substitutions
Correct. Japan and USA used up both of the substitutions. Even Canada is allowing Radford and China is giving Peng a chance, despite no chance of earning medals. One substitution for both of these countries. Yet, Russia is the only country with no substitutions and it is not like any of the substitutions would affect the results. I’ll be watching tonight’s skating like this: 😡
 
Quit believing everything you see on twitter. It's not noted in her GOE because that's not a GOE bullet point and the person who started that thread is making things up. The bullet point she cites doesn't mean what she thinks it means.
On page 20 of the technical handbook, it says for "Landing on the incorrect edge" - "The call will not change if a jump is landed on the incorrect edge. However, judges will reflect this in their GOE."

My interpretation of that is a jump landed on the inside edge should not be given +5 GOE but can you please elaborate what this means if I've misinterpreted?
 
My interpretation of that is a jump landed on the inside edge should not be given +5 GOE but can you please elaborate what this means if I've misinterpreted?
You're misinterpreting the issue. Kamila lands on an outside edge. Someone on twitter is trying to claim that since the edge goes flat when she's winding up to do her 3T that it should be a GOE deduction. I think that could be true in extreme cases but not the case they cite.
 
Nooo please tell me this is not true. Didn't Kamila say she didn't want to skate 2 programs? Or was that just a rumour that someone started and then kept being repeated?
This is stupid on all fronts, for Kamila too, but especially for Anna. She has been looking so sharp in practice. But even with only 1 quad and a fall on that she would beat any other lady. She deserved to be part of this Team like no other and she is the reigning WC for God's sake.

Are they aiming at making sure that neither Anna nor Sasha get a Team Gold and that Kamila is as run down as possible for the individual event?
Your last paragraph says it all and that's very possible what will happen. This is one of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen in sports. There is 0% chance that Russia will lose the gold medal for the team event. All your risking doing is getting KV injured or having an off skate.

Same thing with the pairs T and M should have skated tonight. I mean otherwise why the hell would they come to Beijing so early if they weren't going to skate in the team event? The world champion pairs team from Russia looked off. Let me guess they're tired from this season from the flight to Beijing and having to skate twice in the team event when they only needed to skate once and now their confidence is probably shattered by the fall tonight

Now Anna will have been in Beijing like 2 weeks before the ladies competition.

I've said it for months that Ithey really need to fix this event then it can be a lot better. And Russia not sharing the gold with Anna and T and M when it's in the bag is complete BS.

I guess being reigning world champion and 3 national titles in 3 years is not worth much anymore to the Rusfed.
 
and the US actually had a lot more reasons for Nathan to do the FS. Perhaps his replacement was a mistake. But our federation wants a huge gap from the second place - it is absolutely incomprehensible why. More than 10 points will not be given anyway.
Once Nathan pulled out of the free in the team event it was over the competition was over Russia was the gold medal winner. Really once Karen struggled and finished in 5th place losing 4 points to Russia and then Nathan did not skate the free skate it was over and there was no reason to sweat anything and it's not like you're putting in losers with Anna and T and M.

It's beyond dumbfounding to do that when they could have easily shared the gold among all these skaters.
 
Apparently Margarita Mamun (while commentating the medal ceremony) said Sasha and Anna stayed up waiting until night for the free skate team announcement. Looks like they found out with the rest of us, or at best right before.

I wish I could cuss on this forum.
That just completely breaks my heart. The poor girls. Sending them lots of ❤️❤️❤️

Kick @ss in the Individual event all of you and let the judges sort it out!!!!
 
Well, now there will be Karen Chen - Olympic silver medalist and Shcherbakova - Olympic silver medalist. Or Trusova - Olympic silver medalist. Very fair, don't say anything. Who, I wonder, is the genius who made such a wonderful decision? It's very morale-boosting.

I don’t even have the desire to be happy for Kamila now, although she has nothing to do with it. But some pre-rotation analysts still continue, apparently out of inertia, talking about how Stanislav Shcherbakov bribed all the judges of figure skating in the world.
 
yes kamila was amazing but why is for example her edgedchange in her combos not noted in her goe? doesnt it say that a disrupted flow in the combination and and edgechange that can be clearly seen in slow motion is exactly that isnt it? should get minus goe or at least less goe? i mean its not kamis fault at all thats the way she was taught to jump but if the judgeds or technical panel just ignores it she doesnt get any incentives to ever try and change it . you can clearly see that she changes the edge inbetween combinations from outside to flat to outside? just really interested in knowing why this gets ignored?
I personally don't mind this edge change thing she does at all and I wouldn't like to see it penalized, but I would be really curious to know why she does it, or better why it wasn't corrected by Eteri from the very beginning since this is clearly not how they teach 3-3. She is the only girl who I have ever seen do that.
Now there's no point in changing it, but it's curious they let her learn it like that at some point.
 



Alina Zagitova: “I wanted Shcherbakova to perform. There is never an extra Olympic medal. Shouldn't I know."

Olympic champion Pyeongchang 2018 Alina Zagitova commented on the results of the Beijing 2022 team tournament.

Today at the Olympics the team tournament of figure skaters ended, in which the Russian team took gold. In the last part of the competition - the women's free program - Kamila Valieva performed for the team, who also skated a short one.

“I wanted Anya (Shcherbakova) to perform. There is never an extra Olympic medal. Should I not know,” said Zagitova on the air of Channel One.


I just hope it won't turn into Kami's hate, the decision is not her fault at all. But thank you to Alina for the voice of support for Anya.
 
Apparently Margarita Mamun (while commentating the medal ceremony) said Sasha and Anna stayed up waiting until night for the free skate team announcement. Looks like they found out with the rest of us, or at best right before.

I wish I could cuss on this forum.

If this is true, this also implies that Kamila didn't know until the last moment? Because if she had, there's no way coaches would have kept the others in the dark?
 
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