2023-24 Grand Prix Final Senior Men Short Program

[Rebecca Moose]

If you do not like the music combination, the fault lies with the director and film scorer for the movie "Everything Everywhere All at Once" , and not Stéphane.

the moose is confused. are you saying stephane only had access to the "everything" soundtrack? "clair de lune" is public domain. shoma is not well served by this ridiculous "i love you" gimmick.

a program to the OG "clair de lune" would have been much more effective. ymmv, however.

 

[el henry]

the moose is confused. are you saying stephane only had access to the "everything" soundtrack? "clair de lune" is public domain. shoma is not well served by this ridiculous "i love you" gimmick.

a program to the OG "clair de lune" would have been much more effective. ymmv, however.

Did Stephane have access to the soundtrack of a movie that won the Oscar for Best Picture with an international cast and reach? I would bet money that yes, he did.

The ridiculous "I love you", as you call them, is not a reflection of Stéphane's personal taste (ETA: in terms of a decision to place these two tunes together), and the mash-up is part of the movie. Again, your complaint is with the movie as the originator.

If you care to educate yourself, Wikipedia actually does a good job:

Everything Everywhere All at Once - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Is the original Clair de Lune better? That's another question that has nothing to do with the origin of the mash-up.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Again, your complaint is with the movie as the originator.

no, my complaint is with stephane for thinking this mash-up was a good vehicle for shoma!

I swear to god I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here-- all I'm saying is I think the og clair de lune would have been a better choice.

 

[Skating91]

That what bothers me. The guy literally pulled out all the stops, maxed out everything humanly possible (okay, 4Lz+3Lo was a king of kings kind of possibility)...and that gave him a less than 1 point lead? There's something rotten in the Kingdom of Denmark, I say.

Someone said they don't do him any favors by scoring his PCSs in the 9s, but they do him even less favors by pushing him to compete in a different playing field than everyone else because he doesn't sit as low in the knees as naturally as the other boys. Like, if any of the other five in that final would have suddenly landed 4A, they would have been in the lead by over 5 points if not more, I am sure of it. And if Malinin fell on his attempt, they wouldn't score him at 90.

PCS is difficult to quantify it's an argument that goes in circles. But at least with jump we can analyse with some precision and show proof of a cheated landing, etc.

Shoma failed to complete most of his jumps despite much simpler content then Ilia, yet one point behind Ilia despite being close to ideal (landing a clean 4A should drag up skating skills any way despite whatever anyone thinks of his program).

If the judges ignore all these cheated landings again in the free skate, and with the PCS Shoma automatically receives, Ilia has to watch out tomorrow which is unfair.

 

[Tutto]

No reason to feel sorry for Ilia. He skated great and is leading.

He jumped great and is (probably justly) leading. But he walks on the ice. No way his skating skills deserve 44+ PCS

 

[Arriba627]

Just an observation here, and a bit off-topic so hopefully the mods will allow? What is with the flower/toy girls handing toys directly to the skater, even before they get off the ice? I find it annoying, and I am sure the skaters do to, especially if you had a not-so-great skate. Don't the flower/toy girl supervisors go by the unwritten rule--never approach the skater while they are on the ice? When Adam SIAO HIM FA exited the ice after his short, a clueless flower/toy girl skated directly in front of him as he got to the exit. Could have caused a collision...are they just looking for a TV moment? After a tough skate or even a good one, the last thing you want is someone shoving stuffed animals at you.

My thoughts exactly! Can't remember which skater, but they started handing him stuffies while he was still bowing! Very odd!

 

[Isk]

My thoughts exactly! Can't remember which skater, but they started handing him stuffies while he was still bowing! Very odd!

Interesting, I thought quite the opposite: at least some fans will see their toys given to skaters rather than thrown overboard. I still remember the times when skaters collected flowers and gifts from fans at the boards after skating, sometimes while their marks were being announced. Also the times, when flower kids came over to the skaters at the end of the performance to give them flowers and sometimes got hugged or kissed on the cheek.

 

[Mathman]

(Malinin) jumped great and is (probably justly) leading. But he walks on the ice. No way his skating skills deserve 44+

I am not outraged by the scoring. Ilia's three component marks were in the high 8's, with Skating Skills the lowest. The panel put Uno ahead of him in all three componenents. They put Kagayuma ahead of hin in all three components. They put Aymoz ahead of hin in all three componbents. They put Fa ahead of him in all three components. This is quite reasonable, IMHO.

(OK, the Slovakian judge who gave him 9.50, 9.75 and 9.50 -- yeah, that's higher than I had him, scoring at home. )

 

[Mathman]

Did Stephane have access to the soundtrack of a movie that won the Oscar for Best Picture with an international cast and reach? I would bet money that yes, he did.

Plus, the director was Danny Kwan, Michelle's Kwan's father.

Anyway, If Shoma can follow the plot of this movie, my hat is off to him.

(Not that there's anything wrong with the Debussy piece. )

 

[ramurphy2005]

Plus, the director was Danny Kwan, Michelle's Kwan's father.

Anyway, If Shoma can follow the plot of this movie, my hat is off to him.

(Not that there's anything wrong with the Debussy piece. )

Different Daniel Kwan

 

[skylark]

I wouldn't call myself or some of the others who commented on the 9.75, detractors. Sorry.

You're right. Sorry I used that word. It just gets quite old seeing the same comments every time Ilia skates, the same complaints about his skating and the scoring.

 

[el henry]

You're right. Sorry I used that word. It just gets quite old seeing the same comments every time Ilia skates, the same complaints about his skating and the scoring.

But could the same complaints be repeated because the same thing keeps happening?

Whether you agree with them is of course another matter, but as someone who would like to see different scoring, it gets quite old seeing the same issue time after time.

 

[skylark]

But could the same complaints be repeated because the same thing keeps happening?

Whether you agree with them is of course another matter, but as someone who would like to see different scoring, it gets quite old seeing the same issue time after time.

I should scale back on reading the same old same old arguments after the skates. What matters most to me, at any rate, isn't the result, but that skaters show their love for skating, their joy in sharing emotion with the audience, and their exuberant happiness in being able to do something so extraordinary as athletes.

My favorites in this competition were Ilia and Shoma, and they both demonstrated the above.

 

[zebobes]

The thing that I find interesting about skating fandom is how often the debate isn’t about the winner, it’s about the gap between skaters. Nathan Chen should have won, but not that much. Patrick Chan should not have that much more PCS scores. Yuzu should have broken a world record.

And now it’s Ilia should have won by more.

I’m not saying which opinions are wrong or right, it’s just they do kind of blend together after a while, but the fact that there is so much to debate about this event shows how great the men’s discipline is right now.

 

[readernick]

The thing that I find interesting about skating fandom is how often the debate isn’t about the winner, it’s about the gap between skaters. Nathan Chen should have won, but not that much. Patrick Chan should not have that much more PCS scores. Yuzu should have broken a world record.

And now it’s Ilia should have won by more.

I’m not saying which opinions are wrong or right, it’s just they do kind of blend together after a while, but the fact that there is so much to debate about this event shows how great the men’s discipline is right now.

Generally, this is true. However, I actually do think there is some debate here about who should be leading. Many people believe the PCS gap between Shoma and Ilya should be greater which would have resulted in Shoma leading given how close their scores are..

The other side of the argument being that his difficulty is underrated and so it's fine to compensate but giving him higher marks in PCS categories even if he doesn't really deserve them.

He jumped great and is (probably justly) leading. But he walks on the ice. No way his skating skills deserve 44+ PCS

This is a bit harsh don't you think? No elite skater " walks on ice." I agree that Ilya was overscored in SS but that's really just because the other skaters here particularly Yuma and Shoma have such incredible SS that he looks weak in comparison. Ilya's SS are fine, they just aren't great. His jumps are clearly special. Most skaters will be wonderful at some things, and not so incredible at others. No need to overstate the problem.

 

[Mathman]

But could the same complaints be repeated because the same thing keeps happening?

I don't know. I understand the concern that big jumpers often get get a phantom boost in PCSs as their tech goes up. But IMO this particular competition does not provide ammunition for such a complaint.

Ilia jumped the biggest techy-tech quads ever seen in the history of the short program. Yet the judges gave him next-to-last scores in PCSs. True, a couple of the judges seem to fall into the camp that says, he must have good skating skills if he can land all those quads. Or even, it's only right to cut the big jumpers some slack on PCSs because it is harder to keep up your choreography when you are doing quads. That's why there are nine judges -- the other seven can say, hey, wait a minute now.

 

[icewhite]

I should scale back on reading the same old same old arguments after the skates. What matters most to me, at any rate, isn't the result, but that skaters show their love for skating, their joy in sharing emotion with the audience, and their exuberant happiness in being able to do something so extraordinary as athletes.

My favorites in this competition were Ilia and Shoma, and they both demonstrated the above.

That's an opinion I often see in fs, but cannot get behind. If I want to see pure beauty I go to see ballet, opera etc. Maybe, if I want to see them on the ice, a figure skating show. But figure skating as a sport is a competition. Who is better than who is the essence of the event. Following the rules by both competitors and judges/referees is of utmost importance.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the beauty in figure skating. But it's not like scoring doesn't matter.

 

[cailuj365]

I have a different experience. Sometimes my boyfriend (representing the general audience) accompanies me to FS competitions and he isn't able to distingiush a quad from a double and doesn't care to. However, he remembers different programs, and often brings up his favourite performances to me years later, asking what became of this or that skater.

We all have different anecdotes about personal experiences (and I have many that would counter yours), but out of all the quads, I do think Ilia's quad axel has a certain visual wow factor because of the height he gets, and it just looks a lot more complicated than a regular old double or triple jump. The 4A should be valued way more than it currently is to reflect its degree of difficulty.

Anyway, I feel like we're talking as if this competition is already over, as if the podium is already finalized. Hardly!!

Actually, I'm editing because I just want to say that I'm not discrediting how important emotion, choreography, and music is to figure skating. People have visceral connections to these things. I just feel that at the end of the day, what makes singles/pairs skating unique and so popular in the Olympics and why it has higher TV ratings than ice dance, is because of the jumps. The jumps and the big tricks matter to this sport. When someone comes out with a new jump that has never ever been landed before, I pay attention and feel that it should be rewarded.

 

[skylark]

That's an opinion I often see in fs, but cannot get behind. If I want to see pure beauty I go to see ballet, opera etc. Maybe, if I want to see them on the ice, a figure skating show. But figure skating as a sport is a competition. Who is better than who is the essence of the event. Following the rules by both competitors and judges/referees is of utmost importance.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the beauty in figure skating. But it's not like scoring doesn't matter.

That's fine. I didn't say the scoring didn't matter, btw. But part of the attraction of figure skating is that there's something for everyone; you can appreciate the competitive element more, while I think the artistry plus the competition are what makes it special. All the scoring has a subjective element; we've seen that in the past 20 years, and no matter the arguments and tweaks, it's still true. JMO.

 

[snowed]

Ilia and Yuma totally robbed they should be 10 points ahead of Shoma.

It goes without saying that giving such a low base value to the 4A is holding the sport back. Why not make the 3A worth little more than a 3Lz? Why is the 3A so inflated?

Back to the short program, what is going on with these officials where they reward cheated landings with high GOE. It's either incompetence or corruption? Which is it?

The flip is at a minimum an underrotation close to being downgraded.

At a minimum the first jump on the combo should be an underrotation (look at the massive prerotation on the 4T it's a 3T), and the second jump should get one too but at the very least a q.

Ilia should have a 10 point advantage over Shoma for tomorrow.

This has ruined this entire men's event. I'm afraid someone is going to miss out on the medal they deserve.

I answered to you on a different post about calls, I'm gonna copy/ paste...
"About edge and underrotations calls I hope you know that the tech panel is calling what they actually see (in their direct line of sight or for reviews, the official camera angle), not what they think they see, or suspect it is. Whatever they cannot see, it passes as correct. The skaters and coaches know this and accept this, otherwise they wouldn't compete. It is far from perfect but I wouldn't call it robbing, I would rather see it as robbing if the tech panels would "guess" the calls. And I don't see how it can be done better... maybe have more cameras, but that would increase the reviews time.
Also the official camera is different than the commercial camera so we see a different angle than the tech panel, so we see different mistakes. I wish tech panel and we, would see the same video..."

I would add that, in my understanding, the landings are considered to start from where the weight is put on the blade, what you show in the pictures may be simply toe pointing close to ice. At the moment when the weight is transferred from the blade into the ice, the toe pick would scratch the ice if it still rotates would create "snow", there is no snow in these pics. Also, a different discussion, not always when is snow, the jump is underroated, could be fully rotated and the landing "hooked".
Similarly about prerotation... having the weigh on the toe pick while still on ice, would scratch the ice and diminish the speed and momentum needed for the jump.

I'm not saying the calling of the rotations, edges is ideal, I'm just saying that (in my opinion) currently, there is no better way to do it.

Also the elements values and the rules of judging are published at the beginning of each seasons, approved by vote in the annual ISU congress. I don't think skater are robbed when judged following the rules.

Incompetence and corruption are big accusations based on what?

What you bring up is valid if posted in the thread "how to improve judging". Like ISU could add more cameras (but that would increase review time and expense), add sensors on the blade (but that might endanger the skaters, also expensive, also the wireless signal in skating arenas doesn't always work), increase the value for the 4A (maybe they will for the next year)...