TASS reports ISU technical committee intends to simplify the skaters' programs

snowed · Jan 26, 2024

4everchan said:
I am not sure I need 3 throws in the pairs LP... because some of these falls are tough to watch and since the flip and the lutz count as the same, it wouldn't give many options to skaters... Some really don't like the toe assisted throw jumps and perform only the edge jumps throw... So perhaps they should require one of each... it may bring back the throw 3T which is nice to watch but never used almost.

I like the 3 lifts and I do find them different enough, but I agree : one of them could be without the crazy level bullets with change of position... A simpler, cleaner lift may be fun to watch too and fun to do for the pairs. It could be that one of the list, especially from group 3 or 4 but perhaps eve one of the axel lifts, receives a CHOR lift BV and more freedome is given. That could change every year too. The pairs LP is notoriously known to be too packed with stuff so I can see why they would want to remove things from it... BUT : if they removed the single jump... all we will see will be 3T or 3S +2A+2A sequences... the solo jump allows some differentiation between teams... and some teams are able to do a harder jump there which they may not want to do if they don't have to take that risk and if it means a risk of no combo. I am going to suggest something the ISU may not like... add 15 seconds to the pairs LP and let them skate some more Choreo... no need to remove an element here, but adding time may solve the issues.

Yes a choreo lift instead of a leveled lift would be nice!

zebobes · Jan 29, 2024

Thinking about the change from seven to six jumping passes, this move would once again increase the value of triple-triple jumps, as you would need two to make a seven or eight triple program for the women. For most skaters, the third combinations often feels just thrown in there, with a couple of doubles just to make up the points. The double axel sequence rules could then remain as is, as a triple-triple would still be needed to fully maximize the program.

I wonder if there is some meaning about each jump repeated three times rule that was lost in translation. If the rule was you can have at most three of a kind of jump, no matter double, triple, or quad, that would make more sense to me. That way, you wouldn’t have two each of a double, triple, and quad in a program.

NaVi · Jan 29, 2024

zebobes said:
I wonder if there is some meaning about each jump repeated three times rule that was lost in translation. If the rule was you can have at most three of a kind of jump, no matter double, triple, or quad, that would make more sense to me. That way, you wouldn’t have two each of a double, triple, and quad in a program.

This actually makes a lot of sense. If true, I wonder what triggered the person suggesting this. I think I remember seeing a 2x4Lz + 2x3Lz program that I found quite annoying. That's quite niche though. I do think we could definitely do away with 2x3T + 2x2T programs as I often find +2T combinations can just drag the program a bit.

lariko · Jan 29, 2024

I feel that rule changes are actually good for the athletes. The top ones will find a way to prosper. Like, doesn't this change open a gate for +3A+3A sequence? I would love to see that. If they throw in two 3-jump cascades are allowed instead of one combo and one cascade, even better. For the majority, six jumping passes will just result in longer periods of skating around the rink, arms to the sides or even down, gathering their breath and trying to smile.

icewhite · Jan 29, 2024

At this point I don't expect these suggestions to become actual rules. Jumpingbean is right, there are always so many proposals and hardly any of them become reality. Also the framing from TASS is of course... framing. You could also simply call these suggestions a shift towards the other aspects of skating. It does not necessarily have to be easier. It really is such a misconception that only jumps are tough and sport.
Ballet does not have jumps with many rotations and does anybody doubt that for instance high level ballet requires strength, stamina, drill even up to complete exhaustion of the body?
Anyone who has ever tried to glide backwards elegantly on one foot while leaning back with your upper body shall not tell me that is not sport.
What about most movements in gymnastics - are those not sport, for instance just holding your position on the rings?
Of course jumps look like the easiest to evaluate in terms of numbers and "objectivity", but let's not pretend the GOE on jumps aren't often just as creative as all the other judging. And whether you give a q or not on a quad combo can have quite a big effect.

As I said I'm in favour of getting rid of a jump passage in singles and an element in pairs to have more choreography, but I think such singular rules may not help if they aren't thought through very well. It needs to be considered what will happen in that case and which other rules need to accompany this one to have the desired effect.

A bit off topic: I would love to see a graphic depiction of the step sequences. As viewers who often have never done any higher level skating we are usually taught to recognize jumps (and revolutions), but what's going on in the step sequence remains a mystery at large. I think commentators need to talk about it more and "educate" the audience, but graphics would also help. That could help to appreciate it more. And then we could also think about having a second step sequence or something similar...

JeanA · Jan 29, 2024

Reducing jumping passes to six doesn't strike me as all that bad. More time for choreography and interesting moves isn't a bad thing. However, it will make PCS scores more valuable percentage-wise, which can be good or bad. PCS will still have the "cooking" or "mushrooming" problem and its effects will now be intensified. I'm +/- on this proposal.

Repeating a jump THREE times?!?! How ridiculous. I'm imagining a Bazylyuk program being: 4sal-eu-4sal, 4sal, 4toe// 3axel-3toe, 3axel, 3lutz. No need to worry about doing loops and affecting your hip, and no need to worry about flip/lutz wrong edge. In fact, if you don't do both flip and lutz in the same program, you wouldn't have to be dinged for wrong edge. If in the replay a "lutz" is inside it would just be considered a flip, and vice versa. In fact, that would help the "lippers" where they'd all just be called lutzes. So, not a fan of this proposal.

What these proposals appear to be doing is reducing technical jumping scores because presently the level is sad at the GP and WC (at least for the women) because they are inconsistent or can't jump and the champion/medalists look inferior to other champions in the past. This is a smoke and mirrors kind of solution to that visual problem, I reckon.

JeanA · Jan 29, 2024

zebobes said:
Thinking about the change from seven to six jumping passes, this move would once again increase the value of triple-triple jumps, as you would need two to make a seven or eight triple program for the women. For most skaters, the third combinations often feels just thrown in there, with a couple of doubles just to make up the points. The double axel sequence rules could then remain as is, as a triple-triple would still be needed to fully maximize the program.

I wonder if there is some meaning about each jump repeated three times rule that was lost in translation. If the rule was you can have at most three of a kind of jump, no matter double, triple, or quad, that would make more sense to me. That way, you wouldn’t have two each of a double, triple, and quad in a program.

It would hurt a skater who also has a --3loop combo like Anna Shcherbakova. I think (hope) everyone by now realizes that a --2axel-2axel combination is worth more than a --Eu-3sal combination and that the -Eu-3sal combos are unnecessary. So having a -3loop combo as a third combo is worth much more than the usual innocuous (and oftentimes annoying) -2toe combos that we see all the time now.

Maybe there is something lost in translation, especially if the jumping passes are reduced to six. A skater with no loop or a skater with a questionable lutz/flip edge could easily work their deficiences around that. A skater with no ultra-si and no consistent loop could do 3lutz-2axel-2axel, 3lutz, 3lutz//3flip-3toe, 3flip, 3sal for maximum BV or a person with a bad flutz/lip could just replace the second half with 3loop and it's up to the technical caller to decide whether the first-half jump passes were flip or lutz based on replay.

The layouts of these programs would certainly be interesting, at least.

gkelly · Jan 29, 2024